Is This Sexist??

[Diesel]

 

        

 

  

 

 

 

You know... I have thought about the women that cover the Hawks...   I have wondered... How many would have respected opinions on the squawk?  Many times, they are treated as groupies that are only present to try to improve their status.  I mean many of them do end up marrying or dating the athletes that they cover... but what about their take?

When you watch the morning shows, they are usually placed in the middle of an adversarial conversation and many are ever given an opportunity to speak.   They just time keep.   We have a few very good takes from our women posters here on the Squawk.  I wonder though..  Do we have respect for their takes as well?  OR... Are they just the eye candy that the networks see?

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I see most members are avoiding this topic, for fear of being reported to Hawksquawk HR, but I'll bite.

Pretty much every woman you've posted in your opening post has not only had elaborate opinions on sports, their opinions are normally right on point.  This isn't the era where the woman just sits on the side, while the guys argue about sports.  The women in sports media can more than hold their own.   

Renee and Kelly are outstanding on Hawks in-game and post-game broadcasts.  Rashaun definitely knows her Atlanta sports.  And Maria is one of the elite sports media broadcasters in the game in her hosting ability, and in her analysis. And from an Atlanta sports standpoint, you forgot Elle Duncan.

Even on the Squawk, arguably our most popular, most informed, and most respected member on here, is @JayBirdHawk  

 

This lady is in sports media too.  She's been a rapidly rising star for the past 4 years.

She made a statement during the Hawks - Philly series that I've heard no one in media, or in fandom, say.  She said that when it's all said and done, Trae Young will go down as the greatest Atlanta Hawk.

That's a STRONG and BOLD statement, considering that Dominique Wilkins has ALWAYS been considered the greatest Hawk . . and it's not even close.  So the fact that this lady is fine as hell . . .

 

 

. . . it doesn't reduce the brilliance of that statement.  In a day and time where people still don't want to admit that Trae is great, she's proclaimed that he will be the GREATEST Hawk.

And she can argue her point line by line.

 

I had a lady that I used to work with about 10 years ago.  Drop dead gorgeous.  Could easily pass for Joy Taylor's sister.  But she could FIERCELY argue with you about sports like she's "one of the guys",  

Speaking of Joy Taylor, she one of the favorite people I like to listen too when it comes to talking about sports.  Her podcast is outstanding.  And she has vast knowledge on ALL sports.  Why FOX Sports hasn't brought this podcast up to TV, is beyond me.   Especially seeing that their daytime lineup is heavily dominated by males, specifically former athletes.

 

 

This is a new age Diesel.  Women aren't being held back any more.  And the people that can't see beyond their looks when they give great sports takes, are the same people who don't take the opinions of women serious in general, regardless of looks.

 

[Diesel]

I hear you NorthCyde... and I want to believe you.. but morning after morning... I see it...  Women just sitting there as eye candy.  I know that there are some very sports savy women with Good takes...

I came up with Doris Burke, Alliene Vinson, and Pam Oliver...  These women knew the sport.   Didn't always like Burke's POV but respected it because I knew that she knew what she was talking about.   It just seems like we have gone backwards in terms of eye candy vs. knowledgeable reporting. 

[RedDawg#8]

I mean some of it you cant help.

Guys like Stephen A, Wilbon, Mike Greenberg, Skip, etc.... they have held their seats at the table for so long and have tenure.

Then, there is the player aspect where so many former players are finally getting seats at the table and able to offer their unique insight and perspectives. This has always  reflected the sport's demographic. So while there are former female athletes out there, there are exponentially more men, and when you consider the most popular sports are football and basketball, you see that reflected in the coverage via the analysts demographics.

Those are just the natural, uncontrollable aspects of sports media.

There is a major push for diversity, and  Rachel Nichols just got heat for pointing out that they would rather replace women with other women, than create more spots for women or replace a man.

These things are still a work in progress for sure. 

As far as the eye candy part, I mean, most of the dudes that cover sports are very good looking and in great shape too. The majority of sports reporters are former athletes both male and female, so they are naturally going to be hotter than average.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I mean some of it you cant help.

Guys like Stephen A, Wilbon, Mike Greenberg, Skip, etc.... they have held their seats at the table for so long and have tenure.

Then, there is the player aspect where so many former players are finally getting seats at the table and able to offer their unique insight and perspectives. This has always  reflected the sport's demographic. So while there are former female athletes out there, there are exponentially more men, and when you consider the most popular sports are football and basketball, you see that reflected in the coverage via the analysts demographics.

Those are just the natural, uncontrollable aspects of sports media.

There is a major push for diversity, and  Rachel Nichols just got heat for pointing out that they would rather replace women with other women, than create more spots for women or replace a man.

These things are still a work in progress for sure. 

As far as the eye candy part, I mean, most of the dudes that cover sports are very good looking and in great shape too. The majority of sports reporters are former athletes both male and female, so they are naturally going to be hotter than average.

That's a good point Reddawg!!  I would argue that a lot of the women that cover sports are not former athletes... some got degrees in communications (and there's nothing wrong with that) but a few worked there way up from being a dancer/cheerleader (hmm).   It would be interesting to see the ratio of :   Former Athletes to Journalists to Communications Degree to former Cheerleader/Dancer who work as sports coverage. 

Kenny Mayne was a QB! 

[Gray Mule]

Nothing wrong with eye candy!  I'll bet, not a male poster on the Squawk has ever said about any one of these, "I really wish she was ugly."  Nope.  Not a one of us.

And, all the female fans everywhere haven't ever wished the male announcer wasn't so good looking.

We've all heard those dumb blonde jokes.  These gals don't fit.  They all seem to know what they are talking about.  They didn't get their job simply on their good looks.  This didn't hurt, for sure.  
But, they take their job seriously.  They bring a new, different view that might escape an all male group.  I believe we are all better informed because of it.  And, most of us male listeners pay more attention when it is a good looking gal.  Admit it.  We do.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Nothing wrong with eye candy!  I'll bet, not a male poster on the Squawk has ever said about any one of these, "I really wish she was ugly."  Nope.  Not a one of us.

And, all the female fans everywhere haven't ever wished the male announcer wasn't so good looking.

We've all heard those dumb blonde jokes.  These gals don't fit.  They all seem to know what they are talking about.  They didn't get their job simply on their good looks.  This didn't hurt, for sure.  
But, they take their job seriously.  They bring a new, different view that might escape an all male group.  I believe we are all better informed because of it.  And, most of us male listeners pay more attention when it is a good looking gal.  Admit it.  We do.

Not all or half... but come on Grey.. not every woman on TV is a sports head.  If that were so, they would get a chance to speak.  You watch Firsttake or Undisputed and you will see what I mean. 

[Gray Mule]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not all or half... but come on Grey.. not every woman on TV is a sports head.  If that were so, they would get a chance to speak.  You watch Firsttake or Undisputed and you will see what I mean. 

I thought we were talking about sports heads.  I know.  Eye candy.  Do any of us watch the weather report on our local TV station?  Usually some really nice looking male or female.  We all expect this.  Advertising, has for many, many years known this.  

[AHF]

The main line of sexism I see in sports reporting is that a man can be a non-athlete and ugly and even have bad takes and still get a job.  Women almost uniformly need to be beautiful.  

Like if you were recruiting a sports commentator from the Cheers cast, you could absolutely have Sam or Woody as a good looking ex-jock who doesn't bring a lot of intelligence or insight but know the game and have some good war stories from time to time.  You could have Diane or Rebecca as beautiful commentators who know their stuff and hold their own in a "boy's game" (I'd put the women above in this category).  All that is easy.  

On top of that, you could have schlubs like Cliff in the booth as long as he just came up with an enthusiastic catch phrase and you could absolutely have Norm giving his bar stool opinions.  But you could not have Carla in the conversation even though there is a good case she is smarter and tougher than both of them put together.  And that is purely about sex and looks.

[Spud2nique]

40 minutes ago, AHF said:

The main line of sexism I see in sports reporting is that a man can be a non-athlete and ugly and even have bad takes and still get a job.

 

[Spud2nique]

42 minutes ago, AHF said:

schlubs like Cliff i

 

[Spud2nique]

11 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And from an Atlanta sports standpoint, you forgot Elle Duncan.

I like her a lot. She’s my Becky. 

[Spud2nique]

I think Diesel might be watching too much first take with Skip and Shannon and that lady. That lady by no means sets an example for women in the biz. I get the notion that she doesn’t know $hit about sports and is there just for eye candy, that’s the one example I can think of off the top of my head. Many of the rest of the ladies have been great. It may not even be that lady’s fault sitting next to Skip n Shannon but rather the role set up for her by the pig men executives at Fox.

[macdaddy]

I heard someone on here say they don't like Renee Montgomery on the Hawks cast.  But whether or not you think she has good takes you have to say that she breathed new life into a broadcast that was comfortable and stale. Don't get me wrong I love Stinger, Jerome, Bob, Nique but they are 4, 60 year old men and they needed something to shake it up.  

As for the question at hand I don't know.   Hopefully some women will weigh in on the subject.   To me all women are attractive.  The telling part is that for the most part women aren't still in broadcasting when they are over 40 or 50 whereas pervy Marv Albert slaps on a wig and slow calls games in his 80s.   So it's not equal.

[aali34]

One thing to account for is the difference between a moderator and a sports analyst. Moderators guide the discussion and make sure things don't trail off while introducing the segments. Understanding the subject matter isn't as important as a talking head. Makes sense to have someone attractive from a broadcasting standpoint.

Also I can count on one hand how many male analysts actually produce interesting, nuanced, and quality content. ESPN is the human centipede of creating narratives and stories out of thin air and regurgitating them throughout a news cycle until they've milked it bone dry, and it's mostly men doing it.

@AHF's comment adds in a better question. Is there space in broadcast journalism for women who aren't considered attractive?

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

One thing to account for is the difference between a moderator and a sports analyst. Moderators guide the discussion and make sure things don't trail off while introducing the segments. Understanding the subject matter isn't as important as a talking head. Makes sense to have someone attractive from a broadcasting standpoint.

Also I can count on one hand how many male analysts actually produce interesting, nuanced, and quality content. ESPN is the human centipede of creating narratives and stories out of thin air and regurgitating them throughout a news cycle until they've milked it bone dry, and it's mostly men doing it.

@AHF's comment adds in a better question. Is there space in broadcast journalism for women who aren't considered attractive?

 

To that question... There used to be.   Thanks for the run down on Moderator and analyst.    Back to the question.   There used to be.  There was a show that used to come on called the Sports Reporters.   Doris Burke was a frequent guest on that show (to represent women).   She was not very attractive but in terms of her knowledge of sports she was knowledgeable.   There is another show called  Real Sports.. I would put Andrea Krimmer and Mary Carillo up against any man in Sports and would feel confident that they know their stuff.   However, those journalist have been replaced by "moderators" who are easy on the eye but have more in common with the analyst who make up their news than with the journalist who get the real story.   As I said in a previous post.. it seems like (in a sense) we're going backwards.  For the life of me, I don't know why anybody who is not built like a covergirl or a male model would ever want to get into broadcast journalism.   Your best option is to get the degree, put on some shoulder pads and go and hit somebody for a few years. 

[thecampster]

22 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

        

 

  

 

 

 

You know... I have thought about the women that cover the Hawks...   I have wondered... How many would have respected opinions on the squawk?  Many times, they are treated as groupies that are only present to try to improve their status.  I mean many of them do end up marrying or dating the athletes that they cover... but what about their take?

When you watch the morning shows, they are usually placed in the middle of an adversarial conversation and many are ever given an opportunity to speak.   They just time keep.   We have a few very good takes from our women posters here on the Squawk.  I wonder though..  Do we have respect for their takes as well?  OR... Are they just the eye candy that the networks see?

 

 

I'll touch this but from a different perspective. I hate, absolute hate the double standard. These sideline reporters, hires are promoted by the team not only on their talent but their looks.  They almost always hire lookers, encourage them to dress in ways that wouldn't be okay for men to dress, post photos of them, promote them based on their looks (from photo shoots to not hiding them behind a table. Then they tell people to respect them as professionals. You didn't!  Start letting these ladies show their talents before you shine them all up and parade them out.  I'm disappointed by the double standard in the league.

In the last few years though, I've seen a titanic shift in competence from sideline reporters, professionalism and show prep from the female reporters/anchors. and this gives me an opportunity to cheer on the Hawks once again.  Renee Montgomery is better at basketball, smarter about basketball, better prepared as an analyst than 99% of her male counterparts. We've honestly struck gold keeping her in the Atlanta family.  It doesn't hurt she's a looker but I don't even find myself paying attention to that when she's talking. She's brilliant.

[thecampster]

6 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I heard someone on here say they don't like Renee Montgomery on the Hawks cast.  But whether or not you think she has good takes you have to say that she breathed new life into a broadcast that was comfortable and stale. Don't get me wrong I love Stinger, Jerome, Bob, Nique but they are 4, 60 year old men and they needed something to shake it up.  

As for the question at hand I don't know.   Hopefully some women will weigh in on the subject.   To me all women are attractive.  The telling part is that for the most part women aren't still in broadcasting when they are over 40 or 50 whereas pervy Marv Albert slaps on a wig and slow calls games in his 80s.   So it's not equal.

I should have read your post before speaking. How the hell can anyone not love Renee?

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

One thing to account for is the difference between a moderator and a sports analyst. Moderators guide the discussion and make sure things don't trail off while introducing the segments. Understanding the subject matter isn't as important as a talking head. Makes sense to have someone attractive from a broadcasting standpoint.

Also I can count on one hand how many male analysts actually produce interesting, nuanced, and quality content. ESPN is the human centipede of creating narratives and stories out of thin air and regurgitating them throughout a news cycle until they've milked it bone dry, and it's mostly men doing it.

@AHF's comment adds in a better question. Is there space in broadcast journalism for women who aren't considered attractive?

10 years ago I would have told you no. Then I started watching reaction videos on youtube to music and classic sports. My favorites are always the energetic women with permanent "shocked' face. Looks be damned.

[aali34]

2 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I should have read your post before speaking. How the hell can anyone not love Renee?

She oozes fan energy and is charismatic. I'd like to hear someone tell why they don't like her.