Official Game Thread: Nets at Hawks

[Gray Mule]

Some of us always believe, this year's top team is the best team ever.

Some of us always believe, that team we remember in the past was the best team ever.

How would a star today fare as a player with or against that great team from the past will always stir up a long discussion.  We never can prove our points but it's always fun to try.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

I'd love to hear the response to this part.

And it wasn't "just" the CLE series where Al got dominated by certain guys.

You won't hear anything to rebut that.  Here is the reality:

In 15 years in the NBA, Al Horford has never scored the most points on any team he has played on.  (His highest PPG season was a small sample size  due to missing 70% of the year and he finished 8th on the team in total points.  That was the only season he had the highest PPG and most years was #3 or lower.)  

In college, Al's highest finish in PPG was third his junior year.  He never led Florida in either total points or PPG.  His highest scoring college season was 13.2 points per game and his average over 3 years against NCAA competition was 10.3 points per game.

Al wasn't even a high volume scorer in high school.  As a senior, he averaged 21 points per game (the last time he approached 20 ppg at any level) which is perfectly respectable but not particularly high volume for high school.  I haven't seen the numbers but I'd bet dollars to donuts that he didn't even have the highest per game scoring average among high school players in the region.

He simply has never shown the inclination or talent to be a high volume scorer.

 

That does not diminish him as a player because his greatest value has always been his extremely high IQ on both ends of the floor; his impressive mobility on both ends  that especially allowed him to play exceptional positional and switching defense; his passing and jump shooting skills which allowed him to make a significant positive impact on spacing and flow on offense; and his commitment to doing the little things that help teams win and keep the structure on both ends of the floor moving smoothly.  There is a reason the Hawks made the playoffs only after drafting him and why he never missed the playoffs except when injured and why his teams make the playoffs every year.  In Supes' language, he is an elite floor raiser (not a ceiling raiser).  

But what he is not and never has been and will never be is a high production scorer.  It would be laughable to suggest he would ever lead a team in scoring when that team is run by Trae Young and even more of a joke to suggest he might ever be even close to leading the NBA in scoring.  But the "greatest scorer in NBA history"?!?  

Not even Tito and Anna would make that claim.  In fact, here is video of someone asking Tito if he thought Al could ever lead the league in scoring:

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

You won't hear anything to rebut that.  Here is the reality:

In 15 years in the NBA, Al Horford has never scored the most points on any team he has played on.  (His highest PPG season was a small sample size  due to missing 70% of the year and he finished 8th on the team in total points.  That was the only season he had the highest PPG and most years was #3 or lower.)  

In college, Al's highest finish in PPG was third his junior year.  He never led Florida in either total points or PPG.  His highest scoring college season was 13.2 points per game and his average over 3 years against NCAA competition was 10.3 points per game.

Al wasn't even a high volume scorer in high school.  As a senior, he averaged 21 points per game (the last time he approached 20 ppg at any level) which is perfectly respectable but not particularly high volume for high school.  I haven't seen the numbers but I'd bet dollars to donuts that he didn't even have the highest per game scoring average among high school players in the region.

He simply has never shown the inclination or talent to be a high volume scorer.

 

That does not diminish him as a player because his greatest value has always been his extremely high IQ on both ends of the floor; his impressive mobility on both ends  that especially allowed him to play exceptional positional and switching defense; his passing and jump shooting skills which allowed him to make a significant positive impact on spacing and flow on offense; and his commitment to doing the little things that help teams win and keep the structure on both ends of the floor moving smoothly.  There is a reason the Hawks made the playoffs only after drafting him and why he never missed the playoffs except when injured and why his teams make the playoffs every year.  In Supes' language, he is an elite floor raiser (not a ceiling raiser).  

But what he is not and never has been and will never be is a high production scorer.  It would be laughable to suggest he would ever lead a team in scoring when that team is run by Trae Young and even more of a joke to suggest he might ever be even close to leading the NBA in scoring.  But the "greatest scorer in NBA history"?!?  

Not even Tito and Anna would make that claim.  In fact, here is video of someone asking Tito if he thought Al could ever lead the league in scoring:

It's not hard to lead the league in scoring spamming an unstoppable play due to your PG and the foolish NBA rules. Even you know no one is stopping Al with those rules and Trae as his PG.

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's not hard to lead the league in scoring spamming an unstoppable play due to your PG and the foolish NBA rules. Even you know no one is stopping Al with those rules and Trae as his PG.

A Trae/Al PnR game would be effective with those rules but Trae would still outscore Al by a large margin on those squads and Al wouldn't even lead his own team let alone become the Greatest Scorer Of All Time.  Al doesn't have it in him to be that assertive on offense.  Al has played almost 1,100 games in the NBA (regular season and playoffs) and scored over 30 points a total of 7 times and has never reached 35 in a single game no matter how much his team needed him to score and no matter how bad the matchup was on the other end of the floor. 

He doesn't have the aggression to ever make it happen under any circumstance and sure as **** wouldn't do it matched up against David Robinson, Dennis Rodman, etc.  What he would have done, imo, is been a nice partner for Trae on that action.  Not as good as Malone or Kemp or guys who were more willing to put their teams on their back but he would have been effective enough to allow Trae to put up some big numbers (significantly bigger scoring totals than Al).  I see Trae and Al being a reverse Malone and Stockton.  Stockton got a great % on easy looks while Malone racked up the volume on impressive ratios.  Trae would rack up the volume while Al would be a highly efficient secondary option.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

A Trae/Al PnR game would be effective with those rules but Trae would still outscore Al by a large margin on those squads and Al wouldn't even lead his own team let alone become the Greatest Scorer Of All Time.  Al doesn't have it in him to be that assertive on offense.  Al has played almost 1,100 games in the NBA (regular season and playoffs) and scored over 30 points a total of 7 times and has never reached 35 in a single game no matter how much his team needed him to score and no matter how bad the matchup was on the other end of the floor. 

He doesn't have the aggression to ever make it happen under any circumstance and sure as **** wouldn't do it matched up against David Robinson, Dennis Rodman, etc.  What he would have done, imo, is been a nice partner for Trae on that action.  Not as good as Malone or Kemp or guys who were more willing to put their teams on their back but he would have been effective enough to allow Trae to put up some big numbers (significantly bigger scoring totals than Al).  I see Trae and Al being a reverse Malone and Stockton.  Stockton got a great % on easy looks while Malone racked up the volume on impressive ratios.  Trae would rack up the volume while Al would be a highly efficient secondary option.

Of course Trae would outscore him, he's would be the GOAT in that era just due to the rules. 

 

He would run that 1/5 from the three point line making spacing hell on every defense in the 90s. Its hell on every defense in 2022. It wouldn't be fair at all. Defenses would just spam a hard double on Trae to get the ball out of his hands.

Spamming is spamming. He could score a lot more but he likes to share the rock. He likes to pass. He likes to make the best possible plays. Al would be one of the GOATs 

Edited April 5, 2022 by NBASupes

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's not hard to lead the league in scoring spamming an unstoppable play due to your PG and the foolish NBA rules. Even you know no one is stopping Al with those rules and Trae as his PG.

Would Collins lead the league in scoring under those rules?

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Would Collins lead the league in scoring under those rules?

Hell yeah, either that or 2nd in scoring to Trae. You can't stop that shit with the old rules. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by NBASupes

[kg01]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Hell yeah, either that or 2nd in scoring to Trae. You can't stop that shit with the old rules. 

Ok, I just wanted to make sure this wasn't one of your patented Al rants.

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Hell yeah, either that or 2nd in scoring to Trae. You can't stop that shit with the old rules. 

This is craziness.  The league during that era had Stockton & Malone, Cheeks & Barkley, KJ & Barkley, Magic & Kareem, Magic & Worthy, Archibald & Bird; DJ & Bird; Payton & Kemp; Penny & Shaq; Strickland & Robinson; Dumars & IT; Cassell & Hakeem; DrJ & Moses; Hardaway & Zo; Jackson & Ewing; MJ & Pippen; but the the one big guy who would be the unstoppable league leading scorer would be Al Horford or John Collins neither of whom has ever put their team on their back for even a single playoff series let alone a full season with their scoring?  

Like Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, etc. are all stoppable sure but nobody could handle JC who would put them to shame, right?  

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

This is craziness.  The league during that era had Stockton & Malone, Cheeks & Barkley, KJ & Barkley, Magic & Kareem, Magic & Worthy, Archibald & Bird; DJ & Bird; Payton & Kemp; Penny & Shaq; Strickland & Robinson; Dumars & IT; Cassell & Hakeem; DrJ & Moses; Hardaway & Zo; Jackson & Ewing; MJ & Pippen; but the the one big guy who would be the unstoppable league leading scorer would be Al Horford or John Collins neither of whom has ever put their team on their back for even a single playoff series let alone a full season with their scoring?  

Like Kareem, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, etc. are all stoppable sure but nobody could handle JC who would put them to shame, right?  

You had a league where post players can back you up for 20 seconds. Come on, Al would shine with those rules. A lot of post players would do well if they can post up and not have to worry about offensive 3 seconds.

As for JC, his spacing would be a nightmare of 4s of the 90s.

Edited April 5, 2022 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You had a league where post players can back you up for 20 seconds. Come on, Al would shine with those rules. A lot of post players would do well if they can post up and not have to worry about offensive 3 seconds.

As for JC, his spacing would be a nightmare of 4s of the 90s.

Al has NEVER been that kind of Offensive player....you can't now turn him into something he never was. He's just not a natural scoring PF but rather a 'do everything' guy.

[kg01]

At this point, I just want AH and supes to hug it out.

[AHF]

5 hours ago, kg01 said:

At this point, I just want AH and supes to hug it out.

Supes and I are good even when we disagree.  Both of us can be passionate in our opinions but we both know we're on the same side as fellow Squawkers and Hawks fans.  I'm just not buying this "Al Horford would be the greatest scorer in NBA history" and "JC would be  similarly unstoppable and outscore Hakeem, David, Malone, Barkley, Shaq, etc." thing even a little bit.

I suspect he would react the same way if I started trying to argue that Al Horford's total game wasn't as good as Alan Henderson or Shawn Bradley or something.  He'd think I was out of my mind and call me out on it - with justification.  (That is just a hypothetical since you'll not find me bad mouthing Al's total game even if I don't buy him as an elite volume scorer in any era.)

[NBASupes]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

Supes and I are good even when we disagree.  Both of us can be passionate in our opinions but we both know we're on the same side as fellow Squawkers and Hawks fans.  I'm just not buying this "Al Horford would be the greatest scorer in NBA history" and "JC would be  similarly unstoppable and outscore Hakeem, David, Malone, Barkley, Shaq, etc." thing even a little bit.

I suspect he would react the same way if I started trying to argue that Al Horford's total game wasn't as good as Alan Henderson or Shawn Bradley or something.  He'd think I was out of my mind and call me out on it - with justification.  (That is just a hypothetical since you'll not find me bad mouthing Al's total game even if I don't buy him as an elite volume scorer in any era.)

This. 

[kg01]

38 minutes ago, AHF said:

Supes and I are good even when we disagree.  Blah, blah, blah ...

That's not what supes told me on the bus to school yesterday.  He said he gonna whup yo a** if you try to sit with us at lunch again.

[Spud2nique]

7 hours ago, kg01 said:

hug

KISS!!!! KISS!!! 

[AHF]

16 hours ago, kg01 said:

That's not what supes told me on the bus to school yesterday.  He said he gonna whup yo a** if you try to sit with us at lunch again.

Bring it on.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Bring it on.

OT:

Have you all seen Lindsey in the planet fitness commercial? She’s actually looking better these days. She was looking like really beat down due to alcohol etc.

Good for you Linds! Go gettem!

[AHF]

22 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

OT:

Have you all seen Lindsey in the planet fitness commercial? She’s actually looking better these days. She was looking like really beat down due to alcohol etc.

Good for you Linds! Go gettem!

It is genuinely depressing to see these people who seem to have everything going for them get lost in substance abuse at such young ages.  

[Hawkmoor]

On 4/2/2022 at 10:56 PM, Spud2nique said:

@Hawkmoor self ban is in order for the way Kyrie played for you. Come back, 1 year!