(Serious conversation) - What did the Trae rules and COVID cost us this year in the standings?

[marco102]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think some of it was self-inflicted and point the finger at Travis for this.  Other teams made sure they ran too low on players and forced the league to reschedule games.  Travis was doing the "right" thing and going out and quickly filling our roster with g-league talent so that we were ready to go even when our team was like 3 actual players from our roster.  

I've never spoken to TS but I'd bet that he would admit he should have done some of the game playing that other teams did to protect themselves during this part of the schedule with the benefit of hindsight.

Like this:

Despite having Butler, Robinson, Herro, etc. the Heat made sure they kept their roster right at the exact minimum 8 players so that as soon as one more player was lost they would have to get the game cancelled.

Then they didn't return to the court until 12/31 when Lowry was back and they had, again, a significant core of key players like Butler, Lowry, Herro, Martin, and the minutes being played by g-league fill-ins was more like 25% of the total 240 minutes. That 12/31 game the Heat saw exactly 63 minutes out of the 240 played that were filled by fill-in players.  Meaning that 26.2% of the minutes were played by fill-ins and 73.8% of the minutes were played by rotations regulars.

Contrast that to the Hawks on that same night even with Trae, Cap and Reddish (all rotation regulars when healthy) and the Hawks saw 146 of the 240 minutes played by fill-in players.  Meaning that 60.8% of the minutes were played by fill-ins and 39.2% were played by guys who played anyway when the team was healthy.  

Think about that.  The Heat can play almost 75% of the game with regular members of their rotation and still get a game canceled because they refused to fill out their roster while the Hawks playing almost the reverse with the vast majority of minutes going to guys who never play during a healthy roster and we don't get any games canceled.  

All because their GM kept things at a bare minimum and we swamped our roster with g-leaguers.  Like look at the same period in time again.  Denver Nuggets played on 12/28.  They played 100% of their minutes with guys they have played all season on that night.  Two days later, they have to postpone a game because they "don't have enough players."  

Then they return to the floor on 1/1 and how many minutes are being filled by non-regulars when they were so desperate that they couldn't even field a minimum numbers of players a couple of nights earlier?  26%.  Even when stretched to the point of not being able to play, they go from 12/28 with 100% of minutes played by regular to 1/1 with 74% of minutes played by regulars (and I'm counting Bol Bol as a non-regular even though they were playing him fairly regularly pre-corona a month earlier).

We didn't manage this right as far as giving ourselves a level playing field.  

I'll push back on this and say, I don't think it was Travis playing by the rules.  All our players had COVID, he couldn't fake an injury on those players.  Whereas other teams already had players out injured and were able to manipulate the rules better than us. 

[AHF]

16 minutes ago, sturt said:

I'd say the same thing but differently... Adam Silver didn't manage this right as far as giving teams a level playing field.

 

Should TS have seen what his peers were doing and have mirrored their roster tactics? Probably. But he shouldn't have been put in that position in the first place to have to make those decisions.

To chide TS is to deflect some blame, and to me, the FULL blame MUST be left in the lap of the people who caused the whole dire unfair scenario.

I think that is totally fair.  And I agree Silver didn't manage this right as far as giving teams a level playing field.

Where I point the blame at TS is for not reading the room and reacting to how the competition was managing their rosters.

I blame Silver for allowing competitive balance to get thrown out the window where he did not punish teams for failing to fill out their rosters or rescue teams that didn't have regular members of their rotations available.  If he had said, "sorry Heat there is no postponing of games so you need to roll out your trainers, coaches, whatever to fill out your roster or only play with 7 players" then it would have been more fair for sure or if he allowed postponements when teams had some number of their regular roster unavailable it would have been much better for preserving integrity of the games.  He didn't and he owns that.

[AHF]

20 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I'll push back on this and say, I don't think it was Travis playing by the rules.  All our players had COVID, he couldn't fake an injury on those players.  Whereas other teams already had players out injured and were able to manipulate the rules better than us. 

I don't see why Travis couldn't have done the same thing other teams did.  When their players weren't available, they simply didn't sign enough players to be able to reach the minimum of 8.  They still had more regulars available than we did even when their games were cancelled.  So even if they had injuries on top of that, they still had more regulars than we did and just chose not to sign enough g-leaguers to ensure they would be able to play.  We filled the roster so we wouldn't miss any games no matter who was missing.

[marco102]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't see why Travis couldn't have done the same thing other teams did.  When their players weren't available, they simply didn't sign enough players to be able to reach the minimum of 8.  They still had more regulars available than we did even when their games were cancelled.  So even if they had injuries on top of that, they still had more regulars than we did and just chose not to sign enough g-leaguers to ensure they would be able to play.  We filled the roster so we wouldn't miss any games no matter who was missing.

You were only required to sign g-leagures for Covid related injuries.  We had an entire thread about this earlier in the season.  The reason we were so screwed was, we were required to sign players for players out with COVID. 

 Other teams didn't get hit with COVID at that time and already had players out with injuries.  If they had non covid injuries, you could hold them out. If your players were only out because of COVID you had to sign players. 

Because the NBA was still testing players daily, it was hard for the Hawks to say the players had some other injury. 

Again, I'm not arguing the fact that we were screwed, but I don't blame Travis because I looked into that rule extensively and was wondering why he wasn't doing the same thing as other teams.  There was nothing he could do when you have ten players out with COVID and the NBA changes the rules right as your team is catching hell from it. 

[Diesel]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think that is totally fair.  And I agree Silver didn't manage this right as far as giving teams a level playing field.

Where I point the blame at TS is for not reading the room and reacting to how the competition was managing their rosters.

I blame Silver for allowing competitive balance to get thrown out the window where he did not punish teams for failing to fill out their rosters or rescue teams that didn't have regular members of their rotations available.  If he had said, "sorry Heat there is no postponing of games so you need to roll out your trainers, coaches, whatever to fill out your roster or only play with 7 players" then it would have been more fair for sure or if he allowed postponements when teams had some number of their regular roster unavailable it would have been much better for preserving integrity of the games.  He didn't and he owns that.

Reading the Room and seeing what is happening are two different things.

Was Adam Silver making allowances for teams who are bigger better markets?  I mean basketball is still a business.   Was it that Silver told the Lakers, Heat, Knicks, and Bulls... hey.. you can reschedule... and told the hawks and OKC.. you have to play through this because we don't have the means to reschedule that many game??

I can't say that Silver has some blame and TS has some blame.  Silver's making the right decision would have Usurped anything that TS could have done.   All Silver had to do was make a ruling that if you can't suit 60% of your original roster then your game has to be rescheduled.  That takes the choice out of TS's hands.  But Silver didn't.  He left that option for GMs to make.  It falls back to the ineptness of Silver or maybe he planned it that way. 

[thecampster]

Just checking back in to say I really appreciate the high level conversation in this topic today.  Well done HS.

[kg01]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

Just checking back in to say I really appreciate the high level conversation in this topic today.  Well done HS.

tcampst ...

[macdaddy]

11 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Just checking back in to say I really appreciate the high level conversation in this topic today.  Well done HS.

As long as we stick to the topic of hawks getting screwed i think we all stay together. 

[shakes]

6 hours ago, thecampster said:

Looking back at the disastrous start to the season and tracking it. 

The Hawks started the year 12-10 by Dec 2.  During this stretch of games, there were at least 3 games directly affected by the league trying to stop Trae and foul hunting. There were at least 3 the Hawks should have won (check the game longs).

They were 17-25 by Jan 16. (5-15 record). This was the infamous Hawks had to play with up to 10 players out with COVID protocols while other teams were canceling games.

Since then the Hawks have been 24-12, despite injuries and some pretty brutal back to backs.

 

Removing the 3 losses and this stretch of 20 games from the schedule, the Hawks record the rest of the year was 36-19, a .654 winning percentage. Include the 3 foul hunting losses as wins and we're 39-19, a .672 winning percentage.  .654 winning percentage is 53 wins in an 82 game season, .672 is 55 games.  55 games would be the 1 seed in the East this year.  Something to mush your brains on today.

 

I hate Homer topics like this.

Such nonsense.

 

 

How about also asking how many games we won because the other teams had COVID issues?  How many games did we win because the other team had injury issues?

 

Why don't you answer these questions as well or do the answers not jive with the homer narrative that we were the only team affected by COVID, injuries and the refs?

[shakes]

Should we give back the free win we had recently vs Indiana when they only had 8 players total and 1 of them was an NBA rotation player?

 

Or do we only count the games where WE got screwed?

[marco102]

6 minutes ago, shakes said:

Should we give back the free win we had recently vs Indiana when they only had 8 players total and 1 of them was an NBA rotation player?

 

Or do we only count the games where WE got screwed?

Indiana is tanking and wants to lose.   I'm pretty sure they would have pulled all their starters in order to continue tanking.  

So yeah, we can count that win. 

[Final_quest]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think we started season slowly for several reasons:

Huerter off season ankle surgery, Bogi knee procedure, Clint ankle/achilles procedure, Gallo shoulder soreness, Hunter returning from 2nd knee rehab, OO out from shoulder surgery.....NO training camp and_or NO preseason games.

New coaching staff, new offensive and defensive plans.

Same ingredients but different mix hence lack of consistency.

 

Here's where the Trae rules affected the team as a whole more so than Trae himself (i think he adjusted quickly enough)....nobody else could draw fouls consistently which kept us out of the bonus early and often.

I think these are the most accurate reasons for the poor performance first half of the season.  We had a couple Covid games we should have won, Orlando is a primary example.  Covid didn’t help, but I think we had bigger problems before and after the Covid stretch.  

Winning seems like it’s fixing defense, chemistry, and effort issues.  

[Atlantaholic]

The early season gauntlet schedule after the short offseason and coming off of the playoff high, the Covid nonsense, Onyeka needing offseason surgery out of nowhere, Hunter continuing to struggle with injuries and not living up to his promise when he plays, the Cam Reddish debacle, then JC breaking his fingers and feet... This team has had to overcome so much stuff this year, it's crazy we were able to turn it around the last couple of months.

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

Should we give back the free win we had recently vs Indiana when they only had 8 players total and 1 of them was an NBA rotation player?

 

Or do we only count the games where WE got screwed?

Every team facing Indy is facing the same trash tanking team so the whole league has the same advantage against them.    Unlike a one off where the Magic get to play us where we don't have a single starter.  

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

I hate Homer topics like this.

Such nonsense.

 

 

How about also asking how many games we won because the other teams had COVID issues?  How many games did we win because the other team had injury issues?

 

Why don't you answer these questions as well or do the answers not jive with the homer narrative that we were the only team affected by COVID, injuries and the refs?

Yah, so I try not to respond to people who harsh my mellow.

Its pretty easy to see in the trends throughout the season. Read the room.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

You were only required to sign g-leagures for Covid related injuries.  We had an entire thread about this earlier in the season.  The reason we were so screwed was, we were required to sign players for players out with COVID. 

 Other teams didn't get hit with COVID at that time and already had players out with injuries.  If they had non covid injuries, you could hold them out. If your players were only out because of COVID you had to sign players. 

Because the NBA was still testing players daily, it was hard for the Hawks to say the players had some other injury. 

Again, I'm not arguing the fact that we were screwed, but I don't blame Travis because I looked into that rule extensively and was wondering why he wasn't doing the same thing as other teams.  There was nothing he could do when you have ten players out with COVID and the NBA changes the rules right as your team is catching hell from it. 

I guess I just don't see it as hard to say OO, Hunter, Reddish, Bogi, etc. had injury issues given how often they are hurt and unavailable.  I just don't see TS as pushing the envelope the way other teams did and agree that Silver set the system up in a way that hurt integrity and a level playing field.  Too much ad hoc on that one to our detriment.  Would have liked to see TS refused to sign players because he designated them as injured.  We had Hunter and Solo out with injuries for sure.  They were even listed that way on the injury report at that time so you are talking about putting that label on Bogi, etc.  Bogi had missed the better part of a month and only returned in mid-December.  Is it that hard to say he was still struggling with injury at that time?  We didn't so water under the bridge but I feel like other teams pulled these shenanigans to ensure they didn't end up short-handed in a similar manner to us.

[shakes]

39 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Every team facing Indy is facing the same trash tanking team so the whole league has the same advantage against them.    Unlike a one off where the Magic get to play us where we don't have a single starter.  

more homer nonsense.  We faced Indy the day after they traded half their team and got to get a free win vs a G league team.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, shakes said:

more homer nonsense.  We faced Indy the day after they traded half their team and got to get a free win vs a G league team.

Ok.  That's fine.  You're talking about stuff that happens all the time every season vs. us playing multiple games with 90%+ of the team not available because of health and safety protocols.   

You know we sport the largest single season roster in the history of the NBA?  You're acting like this was just regular stuff. 

[Plainview1981]

This team is still built poorly.

I think the new rules hurt some, but Trae has brought up his efficiency in terms of shooting. It has balanced it out some.

While it is easy to just blame the injuries, it still doesn't change that this isn't a good enough defense and there aren't enough shot creators.

Trae being the only one that can create for himself and others is a big problem. Him being the only one to get to the free throw line on a decent basis is a problem.

There is too much of a reliance on 3pt shooting. Especially since none of the shooters are extremely effecient nor are they explosive. Outside of Trae.

Yeah, KH and Bogi have ok percentages, but other teams are not fearing them. Nobody is scared of John Collins or Hunter dropping 35 on them.

Trae is the only player other teams really have to fear.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by Plainview1981

[macdaddy]

18 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

This team is still built poorly.

I think the new rules hurt some, but Trae has brought up his efficiency in terms of shooting. It has balanced it out some.

While it is easy to just blame the injuries, it still doesn't change that this isn't a good enough defense and there aren't enough shot creators.

Trae being the only one that can create for himself and others is a big problem. Him being the only one to get to the free throw line on a decent basis is a problem.

There is too much of a reliance on 3pt shooting. Especially since none of the shooters are extremely effecient nor are they explosive. Outside of Trae.

Yeah, KH and Bogi have ok percentages, but other teams are not fearing them. Nobody is scared of John Collins or Hunter dropping 35 on them.

Trae is the only player other teams really have to fear.

 

I agree with a lot of that but we're second best in the league at 3 point shooting and 18th in attempts.   Our offense lately has looked pretty good even late in games which was a problem.