John Collins trade watch

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[Peoriabird]

16 hours ago, Diesel said:

Why can't fans ever be happy with John Collins??

What is the real reason why Hawks fans don't respect JC?

 

Cause he criticized the guy who is above criticism in a film session 3 years ago.

[Final_quest]

16 hours ago, Diesel said:

Why can't fans ever be happy with John Collins??

What is the real reason why Hawks fans don't respect JC?

 

I think it has to do with his pay day.  Even if you make the case that he's paid fairly, you have to deal with his salary preventing other signings and limiting roster flexibility.  

It gets really difficult to keep Collins and add another significant piece.  Do we have enough with DM, Trae, and Collins?  If not, which of them needs to go?  

I'm happy with Collins as a person and a player, but this is more of a business move.  I find it's possible to be a big fan of him, and also see that maybe we could get a better player/fit.  Just like I loved Bazemore the person and player, but his salary changed the perspective.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Cause he criticized the guy who is above criticism in a film session 3 years ago.

Lies detected....

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Final_quest said:

I think it has to do with his pay day.  Even if you make the case that he's paid fairly, you have to deal with his salary preventing other signings and limiting roster flexibility.  

It gets really difficult to keep Collins and add another significant piece.  Do we have enough with DM, Trae, and Collins?  If not, which of them needs to go?  

I'm happy with Collins as a person and a player, but this is more of a business move.  I find it's possible to be a big fan of him, and also see that maybe we could get a better player/fit.  Just like I loved Bazemore the person and player, but his salary changed the perspective.

Have you taken a look at GS's salaries?  If you want to win, you have to spend.   Maybe the salary cap placement is wrong...but you have to decide what players it will take to win and spend the money on them.  

I'm tired of us looking at the LT and saying.. OK, we have to get Bargain Bin Barney  in a trade for some of our better players because we don't want to go over the cap..

Or

When we are ready to win, we say.. Well we will go over the tax if  Superman and Optimus Prime will sign with us?

 

You telling me that the only way we will go over the tax is that we can get KD?

[Final_quest]

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

Have you taken a look at GS's salaries?  If you want to win, you have to spend.   Maybe the salary cap placement is wrong...but you have to decide what players it will take to win and spend the money on them.  

I'm tired of us looking at the LT and saying.. OK, we have to get Bargain Bin Barney  in a trade for some of our better players because we don't want to go over the cap..

Or

When we are ready to win, we say.. Well we will go over the tax if  Superman and Optimus Prime will sign with us?

 

You telling me that the only way we will go over the tax is that we can get KD?

I agree, but I'm mostly giving perspective on your question about Collins.  Additionally, I think he represents the best asset we have for a trade.  The other guys with salaries over $15M are either off limits or wouldn't bring back much of a return.  If you say it positively Collins wins the best chance to improve our roster via trade award.    

With regards to spending Tony has shown he will spend aggressively and take a win now approach by his actions.  He went and got Capela, Bogi, and Gallo before we even sniffed the playoffs.  Then resigns everyone and spends willingly after immediate success with an ECF run.  When it's clear we need a refresh he takes immediate action and brings in Dejounte.  Heck, they tried to get Simmons at the trade deadline.  

If you go from Year 2 of a rebuild to Golden State level spending you end up bringing in cast off veteran talent that doesn't win.  You would be the Paul Pierce and KG Brooklyn Nets.  Tony might be a spend up to the luxury tax guy who talks like he wants to be an over the tax guy, but that will become clear soon enough.  I see a lot of these moves as smart aggression while not being careless.    

I even see the Huerter move differently than most.  A first round pick is a better asset to improve our team in the next 2-3 years, that's what we got.  When a star becomes available the teams are asking for first round picks, not rotation players signed to long term contracts.  Huerter is likely to never be worth more than he is today, and if he goes from starter minutes to bench minutes how would his value go up?  How would we change our defensive identity keeping Huerter and Bogi?  Even while we are improving the roster we have to make some moves that represent playing the long game.  Our future selves will be thankful we made that move.  

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, Final_quest said:

I agree, but I'm mostly giving perspective on your question about Collins.  Additionally, I think he represents the best asset we have for a trade.  The other guys with salaries over $15M are either off limits or wouldn't bring back much of a return.  If you say it positively Collins wins the best chance to improve our roster via trade award.    

With regards to spending Tony has shown he will spend aggressively and take a win now approach by his actions.  He went and got Capela, Bogi, and Gallo before we even sniffed the playoffs.  Then resigns everyone and spends willingly after immediate success with an ECF run.  When it's clear we need a refresh he takes immediate action and brings in Dejounte.  Heck, they tried to get Simmons at the trade deadline.  

If you go from Year 2 of a rebuild to Golden State level spending you end up bringing in cast off veteran talent that doesn't win.  You would be the Paul Pierce and KG Brooklyn Nets.  Tony might be a spend up to the luxury tax guy who talks like he wants to be an over the tax guy, but that will become clear soon enough.  I see a lot of these moves as smart aggression while not being careless.    

I even see the Huerter move differently than most.  A first round pick is a better asset to improve our team in the next 2-3 years, that's what we got.  When a star becomes available the teams are asking for first round picks, not rotation players signed to long term contracts.  Huerter is likely to never be worth more than he is today, and if he goes from starter minutes to bench minutes how would his value go up?  How would we change our defensive identity keeping Huerter and Bogi?  Even while we are improving the roster we have to make some moves that represent playing the long game.  Our future selves will be thankful we made that move.  

Moving on from one of Huerter and Bogi was a pretty obvious move imo. I was not shocked at all when the trade was made and we got pretty much fair value for Huerter so can't be mad at that. Maybe some thought we could get back a solid starter type for Huerter, but Huerter hasn't been a solid starter and is on a contract that looks like a slight overpay so not sure that was a very realistic expectation. Bogi was probably a lot more difficult to get good value on due to his injuries so it made sense to me Huerter was the one that ended up beeing shipped.

[macdaddy]

22 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Moving on from one of Huerter and Bogi was a pretty obvious move imo. I was not shocked at all when the trade was made and we got pretty much fair value for Huerter so can't be mad at that. Maybe some thought we could get back a solid starter type for Huerter, but Huerter hasn't been a solid starter and is on a contract that looks like a slight overpay so not sure that was a very realistic expectation. Bogi was probably a lot more difficult to get good value on due to his injuries so it made sense to me Huerter was the one that ended up beeing shipped.

I still don't think it was a great move but i have to agree that the return was ok.  not great but ok.  I think getting that first meant a lot to Travis because he loves picks and dealing with picks but I'd still rather have Kevin on the bench.   The idea that some put out that 'there weren't enough minutes' is just silly to me after we've watched Bogi and Hunter struggle to be on the court year after year while we had to give big minutes to guys like TLC and Snell. 

[JayBirdHawk]

38 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Moving on from one of Huerter and Bogi was a pretty obvious move imo. I was not shocked at all when the trade was made and we got pretty much fair value for Huerter so can't be mad at that. Maybe some thought we could get back a solid starter type for Huerter, but Huerter hasn't been a solid starter and is on a contract that looks like a slight overpay so not sure that was a very realistic expectation. Bogi was probably a lot more difficult to get good value on due to his injuries so it made sense to me Huerter was the one that ended up beeing shipped.

If they could have gotten value for Bogi instead of having to give value to move him, I think that would have been the play. Bogi's age and injury/surgery put a damper on his value.

[JayBirdHawk]

The Atlanta Hawks Need To Empower John Collins

Quote

In 2021, Collins signed a new contract worth $125 million over five years. Last season, the first year of that contract, he took a modest 11.9 shots per game, and rarely featured as a big piece in Atlanta's offense, often to the frustration of the fan base, and himself.

With the Hawks now having built arguably the league's most potent backcourt, it'd be a waste to not surround them with players who can make things happen. Collins is already there, but recent history suggests the Hawks haven't prioritized him the way they should. This is their chance to rectify that situation and once and for all cement Collins as a huge piece of their identity, and their plans, going forward.

If the Hawks once again fail to make proper use of Collins, teams carrying elite playmakers, like Dallas and Denver, should be all over looking into ways of how to provide the forward with a new home, where they can empower him to return to 2019-2010 standards, where he averaged over 21 points and 10 rebounds per game.

As the salary cap increases - a trend that is likely to continue - it's going to easier for teams to find a way to add a $25 million-per-year player. And, should Atlanta not have used him enough, teams might be able to negotiate a favorable deal, based on Collins' lack of numbers.

Obviously, that would be a mistake on behalf of Atlanta. Instead, the organization needs to empower the forward before someone else does. It's not just the right thing to do for a player that talented, it should also genuinely help the Hawks become less reliable on Young, and make their offense one of the most potent in the NBA.

It's time to flip the narrative, and it starts now with committing to Collins.

The Atlanta Hawks Need To Empower John Collins (forbes.com)

[Spud2nique]

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

The Atlanta Hawks Need To Empower John Collins

The Atlanta Hawks Need To Empower John Collins (forbes.com)

Starts opening night on a WHAMMER against Sengun and baby Kmart.

AAAANNNNDDDD 11111111 

[Watchman]

On 8/30/2022 at 5:56 AM, Final_quest said:

I agree, but I'm mostly giving perspective on your question about Collins.  Additionally, I think he represents the best asset we have for a trade.  The other guys with salaries over $15M are either off limits or wouldn't bring back much of a return.  If you say it positively Collins wins the best chance to improve our roster via trade award.    

With regards to spending Tony has shown he will spend aggressively and take a win now approach by his actions.  He went and got Capela, Bogi, and Gallo before we even sniffed the playoffs.  Then resigns everyone and spends willingly after immediate success with an ECF run.  When it's clear we need a refresh he takes immediate action and brings in Dejounte.  Heck, they tried to get Simmons at the trade deadline.  

If you go from Year 2 of a rebuild to Golden State level spending you end up bringing in cast off veteran talent that doesn't win.  You would be the Paul Pierce and KG Brooklyn Nets.  Tony might be a spend up to the luxury tax guy who talks like he wants to be an over the tax guy, but that will become clear soon enough.  I see a lot of these moves as smart aggression while not being careless.    

I even see the Huerter move differently than most.  A first round pick is a better asset to improve our team in the next 2-3 years, that's what we got.  When a star becomes available the teams are asking for first round picks, not rotation players signed to long term contracts.  Huerter is likely to never be worth more than he is today, and if he goes from starter minutes to bench minutes how would his value go up?  How would we change our defensive identity keeping Huerter and Bogi?  Even while we are improving the roster we have to make some moves that represent playing the long game.  Our future selves will be thankful we made that move.  

Just out of curiosity, what do you think we are going to get in a trade for Collins?  A high salaried scrub and a mid level first round pick?  And that helps the team how?

Edited September 3, 2022 by Watchman

[RedDawg#8]

I seriously hate this thread resurfacing well after the fact that JC is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I do not think we need a trade watch thread specifically for JC anymore.

No worries though, I know what I can do.

[Final_quest]

14 hours ago, Watchman said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you think we are going to get in a trade for Collins?  A high salaried scrub and a mid level first round pick?  And that helps the team how?

I think that is the conundrum, and why he hasn't been traded.  He doesn't generate interest enough for an equivalent asset coming back to us in a trade.  To me this is a thought experiment and not personal or emotional.  When someone asks why does JC end up in these trade threads, rumors, and published articles outside of this forum, we are reacting to what is actually in print.  Why is it always Collins? 

My response is more trying to give the best reasoning behind why it would be Collins over other players.  "People just hate JC for no reason!" isn't why there is a JC trade watch, so what is the reason?  

But your questions can be turned back on yourself, too.  Not meaning this as an attack, again this is a thought experiment.  There is enough smoke to acknowledge the FO got offers and maybe even shopped Collins.  If Collins doesn't generate demand around the league to get equivalent value, what does that say about his actual value? 

You mentioned we shouldn't trade him for a high salaried scrub and middle first round pick.  Which almost means, you believe that is all we would get offered. Why do you believe he only generates worthless offers?  In a way you are saying the league doesn't value him.  In your question is an actual statement.  

[swanlee]

Think it is time to lock this thread, JC is not going anywhere

[JayBirdHawk]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:52 PM, RedDawg#8 said:

I seriously hate this thread resurfacing well after the fact that JC is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I do not think we need a trade watch thread specifically for JC anymore.

No worries though, I know what I can do.

I would love for the Hawks brass to emphatically say he's no longer on the trade block! (Like Nets did with KD, for now).

Until they do you'll keep seeing these kinds of stupid trades being tossed around.

1. Clint and Collins, 2023 1st, 2024 Kings 1st for AD

2. Collins for Harrison Barnes, Alex Len and a 2nd

 

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

2. Collins for Harrison Barnes, Alex Len and a 2nd

[Watchman]

On 9/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, Watchman said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you think we are going to get in a trade for Collins?  A high salaried scrub and a mid level first round pick?  And that helps the team how?

 

On 9/4/2022 at 7:59 AM, Final_quest said:

I think that is the conundrum, and why he hasn't been traded.  He doesn't generate interest enough for an equivalent asset coming back to us in a trade.  To me this is a thought experiment and not personal or emotional.  When someone asks why does JC end up in these trade threads, rumors, and published articles outside of this forum, we are reacting to what is actually in print.  Why is it always Collins? 

My response is more trying to give the best reasoning behind why it would be Collins over other players.  "People just hate JC for no reason!" isn't why there is a JC trade watch, so what is the reason?  

But your questions can be turned back on yourself, too.  Not meaning this as an attack, again this is a thought experiment.  There is enough smoke to acknowledge the FO got offers and maybe even shopped Collins.  If Collins doesn't generate demand around the league to get equivalent value, what does that say about his actual value? 

You mentioned we shouldn't trade him for a high salaried scrub and middle first round pick.  Which almost means, you believe that is all we would get offered. Why do you believe he only generates worthless offers?  In a way you are saying the league doesn't value him.  In your question is an actual statement.  

No, I think people on here just suggest trades because they don't like him.  Therefore, they would be willing to accept garbage just to get rid of him.  We have a quality center and a backup with a good future.  We have a quality PF and a veteran backup.  We also have another backup PF with a lot of potential.  We have an inconsistent, but potentially quality SF.  We have one of the best starting backcourts in the league.  Why get rid  of anyone at this point in time?  Let's at least see how things work out first.  

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, Watchman said:

 

No, I think people on here just suggest trades because they don't like him.  Therefore, they would be willing to accept garbage just to get rid of him.  We have a quality center and a backup with a good future.  We have a quality PF and a veteran backup.  We also have another backup PF with a lot of potential.  We have an inconsistent, but potentially quality SF.  We have one of the best starting backcourts in the league.  Why get rid  of anyone at this point in time?  Let's at least see how things work out first.  

I wouldn't blame the fans or people on this forum.  You haven't seen the dozens of reports from every sports media outlet with JC trade rumors?   A lot of smoke.  It's objectively not just people on here.  

[RedDawg#8]

On 9/5/2022 at 9:46 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

I would love for the Hawks brass to emphatically say he's no longer on the trade block! (Like Nets did with KD, for now).

Until they do you'll keep seeing these kinds of stupid trades being tossed around.

1. Clint and Collins, 2023 1st, 2024 Kings 1st for AD

2. Collins for Harrison Barnes, Alex Len and a 2nd

 

 

 

 

Our FO would not come out and make that statement for any player not named Trae. Nor should they. Everyone should be available for the right price. That’s good business sense.

But that doesn’t mean we should have a trade watch thread for everyone on the roster. Just because they could be moved at any moment.

The deals don’t even bother me as much as our own stubbornness on here that posters got so excited about the idea of moving him for something new, (fed by insider rumors, not publicly from JC or the organization) that it’s like they can’t  accept the fact that they may have been wrong about him or how much he is actually valued by our franchise.

Every statement that has come from Hawks PR is that teams were calling for JC, and we did our diligence to listen. But that we were NEVER actively trying to move him.  That’s the Hawks position on JC.

Anything else you heard was just some rumor. So for me, that’s enough to say he is safe for now. Just as much as any guy on our roster. 
 

Lock thread