I have to agree with this Kings fan. We look like the Harden-Westbrook Rockets

[NBASupes]

Quote

Honestly reminds me of the Harden-Westbrook Rockets. I get why they’d try it but the fit just screams first round exit to me.

I had season tickets that year to the Rockets and must say I agree with this. 

I see a lot of similarities 

The poor half court offenses

Players not comfortable in their roles

Poor shooting

 

The biggest issue is obviously JC but it'd hard to actually do anything about that because Murray and Capela eat from his spots and he's just not getting as many touches. 

So that goes to the root issue. 

The best performing Hawk, Clint Capela. As good as Clint has been this year. His lack of gravity is elite. It creates zero spacing for Murray. Where Trae uses Capela as an extention of his body. Murray has shown no ability to do that and it's really limited him offensively. Teams made some adjustments from early in the year on Murray and it seems like he's hit his offensive peak for our personnel grouping. This happened to a degree with Houston, Westbrook just couldn't flow with Capela and they ended up moving Clint to Atlanta for that very reason. 

What's the solution. I don't have a good one. Just one that makes sense. 

That's Capela and Bogi for Ayton and Crowder 

Ayton is struggling this year. His effort been inconsistent and he's even less involved in the offense without CP3 than he was before. His WAR is one of the worst in the NBA at -0.9. That said, he's still an elite screener with similar gravity to JC and his team defense which has regressed is generally solid. 

Crowder like Bogi hasn't played this year. 

Capela been huge this year. One of the reasons we are 4th in the east and his WAR is 2nd on our team to Murray. But fit and potential is why I do this trade.

As for JC, keep him till you get his value up to a reasonable level. As of right now, I don't see anything out there that makes him tradeable and having Ayton helps JC as they can play off each other a lot more and the spacing will be good again where JC doesn't need to be more to be effective. 

 

What do you think?

[hylndr11]

My thing is, depending upon where you looked, there was equally as many questions about djm fitting with hawks as their was the overwhelming belief in hawkland that he would be a boon for the team and would open everything up.  I'm not sure how some of these conclusions get drawn, but Murray offense wasn't a secret u could watch one slirs game and see he gets lots of shots the way Collins does, but I just didn't see any of that discussed really in hawk forums etc.  It killed spacing djm and Collins are struggling offensively.  I would still say the overall reaction from the media was positive for djm, but if u looked a little u would see the more objective analysis.  We really shouldn't be surprised at this,   

Seems we've gone back to trae dominant offense while we try and make up for our shooting and issues with defence, we will win a lot of games this way, but playoff stuff it isn't sustainable.  We just traded the way we operate for the same amount of effectiveness.  Djm isn't good enough offensively to force gravity, and I don't believe the front office didn't know that.

[NBASupes]

Just now, hylndr11 said:

My thing is, depending upon where you looked, there was equally as many questions about djm fitting with hawks as their was the overwhelming belief in hawkland that he would be a boon for the team and would open everything up.  I'm not sure how some of these conclusions get drawn, but Murray offense wasn't a secret u could watch one slirs game and see he gets lots of shots the way Collins does, but I just didn't see any of that discussed really in hawk forums etc.  It killed spacing djm and Collins are struggling offensively.  I would still say the overall reaction from the media was positive for djm, but if u looked a little u would see the more objective analysis.  We really shouldn't be surprised at this,   

Seems we've gone back to trae dominant offense while we try and make up for our shooting and issues with defence, we will win a lot of games this way, but playoff stuff it isn't sustainable.  We just traded the way we operate for the same amount of effectiveness.  Djm isn't good enough offensively to force gravity, and I don't believe the front office didn't know that.

Yeah, at the end of the day, we are still a 1/5 PnR team that plays through Capela and Okongwu offensively. Murray has made a massive impact defensively but offensively, we regressed.

[hylndr11]

If ayton can come and do pnr to a decent enough clip as Clint and add shooting , especially to help John cutt and add spacing I'm for that.  Just don't know how good ayton is with one.  Will suck losing clients def as well

Edited November 24, 2022 by hylndr11

[NBASupes]

13 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

If ayton can come and do pnr to a decent enough clip as Clint and add shooting , especially to help John cutt and add spacing I'm for that.  Just don't know how good ayton is with one.  Will suck losing clients def as well

That's the biggest issue. Losing Capela will be a sharp punch to the defense which is finally solid but the way things are now, we can easily get outshot out of any game.

[marco102]

35 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I had season tickets that year to the Rockets and must say I agree with this. 

I see a lot of similarities 

The poor half court offenses

Players not comfortable in their roles

Poor shooting

 

The biggest issue is obviously JC but it'd hard to actually do anything about that because Murray and Capela eat from his spots and he's just not getting as many touches. 

So that goes to the root issue. 

The best performing Hawk, Clint Capela. As good as Clint has been this year. His lack of gravity is elite. It creates zero spacing for Murray. Where Trae uses Capela as an extention of his body. Murray has shown no ability to do that and it's really limited him offensively. Teams made some adjustments from early in the year on Murray and it seems like he's hit his offensive peak for our personnel grouping. This happened to a degree with Houston, Westbrook just couldn't flow with Capela and they ended up moving Clint to Atlanta for that very reason. 

What's the solution. I don't have a good one. Just one that makes sense. 

That's Capela and Bogi for Ayton and Crowder 

Ayton is struggling this year. His effort been inconsistent and he's even less involved in the offense without CP3 than he was before. His WAR is one of the worst in the NBA at -0.9. That said, he's still an elite screener with similar gravity to JC and his team defense which has regressed is generally solid. 

Crowder like Bogi hasn't played this year. 

Capela been huge this year. One of the reasons we are 4th in the east and his WAR is 2nd on our team to Murray. But fit and potential is why I do this trade.

As for JC, keep him till you get his value up to a reasonable level. As of right now, I don't see anything out there that makes him tradeable and having Ayton helps JC as they can play off each other a lot more and the spacing will be good again where JC doesn't need to be more to be effective. 

 

What do you think?

I think it's been 18 games and we need more time before drawing sweeping conclusions. 

Dejounte is missing shots he normally makes like Trae was missing shots he normally makes. 

We need to give everyone time to adjust to each other. 

You bring up valid points, I just think it's too early to draw the conclusion we are the Harden/Westbrook rockets. 

I think we wait and see.  The defense is much improved which wasn't the case with the Rockets, if my memory serves me right.  

We have a lot of our guys in shooting slumps. 

The only player who hasn't slumped this year is AJ and that's because he wasn't in the rotation in the beginning. 

I like where we are 11-7 after one of the the toughest stretches of the season.   We will also have Bogi back in the next few weeks if he keeps progressing, but we'll need to give him time to get adjusted too. 

We are on pace for a 50 win season.  That's pretty solid.  I want the Hawks to get rolling in the second half as those are the teams that tend to go far.  See Boston last season.

[DS5]

44 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I had season tickets that year to the Rockets and must say I agree with this. 

I see a lot of similarities 

The poor half court offenses

Players not comfortable in their roles

Poor shooting

 

The biggest issue is obviously JC but it'd hard to actually do anything about that because Murray and Capela eat from his spots and he's just not getting as many touches. 

So that goes to the root issue. 

The best performing Hawk, Clint Capela. As good as Clint has been this year. His lack of gravity is elite. It creates zero spacing for Murray. Where Trae uses Capela as an extention of his body. Murray has shown no ability to do that and it's really limited him offensively. Teams made some adjustments from early in the year on Murray and it seems like he's hit his offensive peak for our personnel grouping. This happened to a degree with Houston, Westbrook just couldn't flow with Capela and they ended up moving Clint to Atlanta for that very reason. 

What's the solution. I don't have a good one. Just one that makes sense. 

That's Capela and Bogi for Ayton and Crowder 

Ayton is struggling this year. His effort been inconsistent and he's even less involved in the offense without CP3 than he was before. His WAR is one of the worst in the NBA at -0.9. That said, he's still an elite screener with similar gravity to JC and his team defense which has regressed is generally solid. 

Crowder like Bogi hasn't played this year. 

Capela been huge this year. One of the reasons we are 4th in the east and his WAR is 2nd on our team to Murray. But fit and potential is why I do this trade.

As for JC, keep him till you get his value up to a reasonable level. As of right now, I don't see anything out there that makes him tradeable and having Ayton helps JC as they can play off each other a lot more and the spacing will be good again where JC doesn't need to be more to be effective. 

 

What do you think?

WB and Harden are both horrible defenders and they never complimented each other. I think it’s too early to say the same is true for Trae and DJM, just gotta give them some time to figure it out. 

And for as much as I wanted Ayton in the off-season, I don’t think he’s a good fit now. He definitely won’t be featured in offense and he won’t give half of Clint’s effort on d. I think we need to ride it out with the starters and shore up the bench. 

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I think it's been 18 games and we need more time before drawing sweeping conclusions. 

Dejounte is missing shots he normally makes like Trae was missing shots he normally makes. 

We need to give everyone time to adjust to each other. 

You bring up valid points, I just think it's too early to draw the conclusion we are the Harden/Westbrook rockets. 

I think we wait and see.  The defense is much improved which wasn't the case with the Rockets, if my memory serves me right.  

We have a lot of our guys in shooting slumps. 

The only player who hasn't slumped this year is AJ and that's because he wasn't in the rotation in the beginning. 

I like where we are 11-7 after one of the the toughest stretches of the season.   We will also have Bogi back in the next few weeks if he keeps progressing, but we'll need to give him time to get adjusted too. 

We are on pace for a 50 win season.  That's pretty solid.  I want the Hawks to get rolling in the second half as those are the teams that tend to go far.  See Boston last season.

18 games is more than just a good sample size for a 82 game season.

The Harden/Westbrook Rockets defense was actually better till Capela got hurt. 

But the assumption that he will just make it was what Houston fans did for Russ. I think I seen enough to be worried in regard to Murray.

We have no spacing on average, that's highly noticeable and the biggest reason our shooters are slumping 

A.J. hasn't really played enough minutes yet but he's getting a lot of late.

True, it has been a tough stretch.

We know we are a good team, a pretender but this ain't a contender

[Wretch]

You're not wrong on a lot of this.  I'm not keen on trades as the answer, but something has to give.  Zero argument on Cap/JC.  I mean, it just is what it is...worse when JC is not hitting from his spots. 

Compounding the issue is this offense.  The Trae and DJM duo has no identity.  They're both very good, but they're independently good.  We're not capitalizing on having both of these guys on the floor.  They don't create a lot of space/opportunities for each other.  Which is crazy because when they do, it's a fantastic shot almost every time. 

They do a good enough job of getting others involved, but it's the PNR (which is what the league is expecting) or a rare CNS that looks as unreliable as it was the last 2 seasons.  Which leads to another big issue for me...  When Nate staggers the PG minutes, we are quite literally that same team as last year...but without our best shooters.

Ultimately, before we trade anyone...I'd really like to see more synergy between our 1a/1b and see if they can open up the floor for each other and the team.

 

[marco102]

Do you guys think the shooting woes is due to the loss of Jent? I think Korver is his replacement.

Maybe their methods are different and it may take time for the team to adjust to his philosophy vs Jents.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

 

That's Capela and Bogi for Ayton and Crowder 

 

What do you think?

You're joking right??  We haven't go Bogi back but we know that Bogi could be a 40% three point shooter.  You want to trade Bogi and Capela (who is balling out) for Ayton (antiballing out ) and Crowder (old man river).. are you serious. 

How does this help us?

Understand, I don't care about Salary Cap.  Not right now today...   So how is replacing one of the leagues better centers and one of the leagues better shooters with Ayton (who you said is having a down yr while playing with one of the best PGs in HIstory) and Crowder... who is old... help US?

 

[Diesel]

36 minutes ago, Wretch said:

You're not wrong on a lot of this.  I'm not keen on trades as the answer, but something has to give.  Zero argument on Cap/JC.  I mean, it just is what it is...worse when JC is not hitting from his spots. 

Compounding the issue is this offense.  The Trae and DJM duo has no identity.  They're both very good, but they're independently good.  We're not capitalizing on having both of these guys on the floor.  They don't create a lot of space/opportunities for each other.  Which is crazy because when they do, it's a fantastic shot almost every time. 

They do a good enough job of getting others involved, but it's the PNR (which is what the league is expecting) or a rare CNS that looks as unreliable as it was the last 2 seasons.  Which leads to another big issue for me...  When Nate staggers the PG minutes, we are quite literally that same team as last year...but without our best shooters.

Ultimately, before we trade anyone...I'd really like to see more synergy between our 1a/1b and see if they can open up the floor for each other and the team.

 

We knew it would be a work for Trae and DJM to come in and figure out their roles.  Being an offball scoring in HS is different than in the NBA.  I don't think Trae can succeed playing primarily off ball.   DJM is slumping ... mainly because he's a high usage player who has certain things that make him better...  So they are like opposites in needs.  Trae doesn't need nothing but to be the point and DJM as the point needs a lot.   What we are exploring now is how to use DJM off ball?

What's concerning is the play of DJM when Trae is off the floor.   I don't get that he has a good feel for running offense when he's in with mostly second unit guys.  i have to recall that he played most of last year with White.  I believe things may change once Bogi comes back.  Having Bogi, AJ, OO, and JJ on the second unit gives him a lot of firepower.  They could be run and gun but I get the feeling that AHoli may challenge for a spot.  Watch out JJ. 

 

 

[hylndr11]

Yes the whole thing here is bogi for sure, the way we are running right now and are setup he could make all the difference, creating just enough space for DJM to do what he does best.  He and JC could be fun if we can unclog that middle a little bit. 

[Wretch]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We knew it would be a work for Trae and DJM to come in and figure out their roles.  Being an offball scoring in HS is different than in the NBA.  I don't think Trae can succeed playing primarily off ball.   DJM is slumping ... mainly because he's a high usage player who has certain things that make him better...  So they are like opposites in needs.  Trae doesn't need nothing but to be the point and DJM as the point needs a lot.   What we are exploring now is how to use DJM off ball?

What's concerning is the play of DJM when Trae is off the floor.   I don't get that he has a good feel for running offense when he's in with mostly second unit guys.  i have to recall that he played most of last year with White.  I believe things may change once Bogi comes back.  Having Bogi, AJ, OO, and JJ on the second unit gives him a lot of firepower.  They could be run and gun but I get the feeling that AHoli may challenge for a spot.  Watch out JJ. 

I've been watching the clips after each game.  Like, go look at some pick and pop basketball or watch a few minutes of Golden State and how they move.  I know, I know...that's a beautiful offense, with legendary shooters, and a coach who played/studied under the triangle offense.  I get it, but we don't do a lot of that.  Go look at ball/player movement videos, PNP break downs, and then go watch clips of our offense:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022200263&PlayerID=0&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612737&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

That's us every game.  It's all.....dribble, one shot.  One pass, one shot.  Dribble, dribble, dribble, shot.  We're not forcing the defense to react.  So little to no catch and shoot, and a lot of ISO into traffic.  Which only Trae and DJM are reliable at, so when they're on we're ok...when they struggle with the zone, we're not. 

Aside from guys knocking down the open shots they do get from the occasional catch and shoot, we've got to move the ball.  Otherwise, we're just playing YMCA ball, taking turns attacking the basket.

[AtLaS]

With a center like Capela, you have to have shooting all over the floor.  Capela would be great in a system like that.  He is a great defender, help defender, rebounder and lob threat but he just can't shoot at all and everyone gets affected by it.  

I would LOVE to do a Cap for Ayton trade.  Since Ayton is having a down year so far we get a chance to buy low.  No way they would have done this deal in the offseason IMO.  

I do like Bogi more than Crowder though, but they may insist on him being included.  I'd probably do the deal.

[AtLaS]

Bigs have figured out that Murray won't throw the lob on the PNR so they are just stepping up when he comes off the screen which takes away his midrange J.  Then he basically gets trapped or has to force up a really tough shot.

[Peoriabird]

Ayton discussion again?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Once again folks . . .

 

If anything, what you;re seeing in the league right now is a bunch of parody, with no clear frontrunners outside of Boston.  The fact that Indy and Washington are in the top 6, should tell you a little about this season.

Also, the Hawks have played a top 10 strength of schedule.  Only 4 teams in the top 10 SOS have winning records

• Portland
• Boston
• Utah
• Atlanta

 

 

Everyone just needs to calm down about this team.  Let the players play through their issues.

We could very well be 8 to 10 games above .500 by Christmas.

[RedDawg#8]

It took the Bucks until well after the All Star Break to incorporate Jrue in to their offense and get used to not running everything through Giannis. 

My disappointment is that I don’t see us running anything “new”. But I understand that it will take more than a handful of games for a core that’s been together for anywhere from 3-5 years to learn new habits and trust new ways to win games. 

For Trae, he has been dominating the ball since he was in 8th grade. It’s an even bigger learning curve for him.

It takes time 

[theheroatl]

Before anybody even thinks about blaming Trae and DJM let’s consider the albatrosses we throw out there at the 3 and 4 every night.

inconsistency  times 1000