Quin needs to shake up the lineup

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

@AHFat this point, I don't care about offense. Collins remain a plus defender and as long as we continue to give up 82 point in the paint, ain't No offense in the world will be good enough to counter that.

 

But we'll never be a good enough team to win games solely on defense.  What we need is timely defense in critical spots of a game.

I have no problem with Collins closing out a game.  We just need to get maximum impact from him.  Play him on the 2nd unit, and maybe he gets more touches, which means more activity and impact in a game.  If he's playing well, let him close.

[bird_dirt]

I don’t see Dre as a 2 in any form or fashion. Maybe I just prefer different skill sets in 2s? IDK. 
I want a 2 that can handle the ball, is a lethal shooter, and a secondary playmaker. And capable of defending 1s and 2s. 
Dre can’t dribble more than 3 feet without bouncing it off his foot, he rarely displays a killer instinct, he doesn’t pass, and he’d get killed defending quicker guards. 

While I don’t think he would be quick enough, I think JJ would have a better shot at being a 2 than Dre. His handle and passing is legit, and Quinn has already starting trying him out defending the perimeter. 
 

Really, I’m just looking for any opportunity of JJ replacing Dre. This ain’t it, but he’d still be better than Dre if forced to pick between the two at the two. 

[NBASupes]

17 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

I don’t see Dre as a 2 in any form or fashion. Maybe I just prefer different skill sets in 2s? IDK. 
I want a 2 that can handle the ball, is a lethal shooter, and a secondary playmaker. And capable of defending 1s and 2s. 
Dre can’t dribble more than 3 feet without bouncing it off his foot, he rarely displays a killer instinct, he doesn’t pass, and he’d get killed defending quicker guards. 

While I don’t think he would be quick enough, I think JJ would have a better shot at being a 2 than Dre. His handle and passing is legit, and Quinn has already starting trying him out defending the perimeter. 
 

Really, I’m just looking for any opportunity of JJ replacing Dre. This ain’t it, but he’d still be better than Dre if forced to pick between the two at the two. 

Dre d is better than what you are saying and JJ has no first step, he's offensively a 4 all day 

[Gray Mule]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So whose time are you cutting? And who are you rotating into that spot?

I'm definitely not against it, because we have to do something.

Not the same one every time.  Our 6 that are not playing in the nine man rotation play different positions, therefore it would depend on who was "promoted" to the nine man rotation that night.  

Example:  You wouldn't bench Capela for one game and start Holiday in his place.  No, you would promote Bruno that night and rest Capela one night.  Holiday would play when either Young or Murray got their night off.

In the Boston game Bogie rested and Griffin got his spot on the nine man rotation.  Each of the "other" six players would get two nights each by the end of the season.  Each one would know in advance that it was "his" night to play with the other 8, making a full nine man rotation each night.

But, but he's not good enough to do this!  Then, what is he doing on the roster?  Release him now or send him down to the G League.  Use him or lose him.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

@AHFat this point, I don't care about offense. Collins remain a plus defender and as long as we continue to give up 82 point in the paint, ain't No offense in the world will be good enough to counter that.

 

Crazy to only care about one side of the ball but JC is only a solid defender, not a great one.  He gets abused in some matchups and holds his own in others but never is a dominating defender.  He isn’t good enough on offense or defense not to contribute meaningfully on both sides of the ball.

I don’t think he is a must trade depending what we do at center (like if we hit a home run and traded for Embiid I can see JC working well beside him) but his reduced rebounding on both ends and his struggles on offense are a problem for us in the absence of a move like that.  I am not as tied to him as I’ve been in the past.

Hopefully this is the worst season of his career but I remain worried whether we are looking at a before/after career with his finger injury.

[AHF]

52 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Dre d is better than what you are saying and JJ has no first step, he's offensively a 4 all day 

Agree that JJ can’t be the plan at the 2.

[NBASupes]

Just now, AHF said:

Agree that JJ can’t be the plan at the 2.

The bench is now high end but the starters are giving me an headache AHF

[AHF]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

The bench is now high end but the starters are giving me an headache AHF

Can’t blame you.  They’ve looked great most of the year but not recently.  Hunter has been solid.  Trae has been good.  JC/CC/DM have been struggling.

[Peoriabird]

@AHF Trae will give the team enough offense regardless of who is out there...the team needs more defense specifically point of attack defense. Fine. .. if you think John is just too bad to start then start JJ. But I think JJ's offense is no better than JC's offense. I just want Murray and Capela to get fewer minutes because their terrible defense. And their offense too

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Agree that JJ can’t be the plan at the 2.

JJ should be the plan at the 3 . . . in a big lineup, if need be.

If it's one thing the @Peoriabird and I have always agreed on, is the Hawks playing BIG.

 

A lineup of

• Trae
• Hunter
• JJ
• Collins
• Capela

. . is one I wouldn't be against throwing at opponents in certain points of a game.   That's the biggest lineup we can play, without affecting the offense or defense greatly.

[Peoriabird]

I think that could work because Capela wouldn't have to guard the paint as much and could just focus on rebounding

[JayBirdHawk]

Our players, 2-5 (DJ, DH, JC, CC) have been struggling on defense and have not made up for it offensively.

Imagine that Trae is the one trending up on defense while maintaining his offense.

I said a few games ago, if Trae was playing the kind of defense he has been playing and the effort he is giving, I wanted to see our so called DEFENSIVE PLAYERS do more. They have no excuse.

DJ has struggled offensively over the last 5 games, not sure what's going on, but his prior 20+ games were not so much of an issue.

Hunter.......still waiting for the next step. He's been solid, not spectacular, lacking that ONE skill that will set him apart.

Collins sacrificed and remade his game when CC joined, now he's having to do it again with Murray. That Finger has been his downfall along with his rebounding numbers (yikes).

CC is like Bogi - struggles at what makes him special with any kind of injury.

 

[macdaddy]

11 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Our players, 2-5 (DJ, DH, JC, CC) have been struggling on defense and have not made up for it offensively.

Imagine that Trae is the one trending up on defense while maintaining his offense.

I said a few games ago, if Trae was playing the kind of defense he has been playing and the effort he is giving, I wanted to see our so called DEFENSIVE PLAYERS do more. They have no excuse.

DJ has struggled offensively over the last 5 games, not sure what's going on, but his prior 20+ games were not so much of an issue.

Hunter.......still waiting for the next step. He's been solid, not spectacular, lacking that ONE skill that will set him apart.

Collins sacrificed and remade his game when CC joined, now he's having to do it again with Murray. That Finger has been his downfall along with his rebounding numbers (yikes).

CC is like Bogi - struggles at what makes him special with any kind of injury.

 

Agree with all of this.   Isn't the real, traditional key to success in this league having an elite offensive guard and an elite offensive forward?  DJ needs to be the third option.   Trying to win with all the offense being at 1&2 didn't work for Wall/Beal, Dame/CJ, Conley/Mitchell(although they had Bojan),

Hunter/JC/Capela just isn't good enough offensively.   

[bird_dirt]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

JJ should be the plan at the 3 . . . in a big lineup, if need be.

If it's one thing the @Peoriabird and I have always agreed on, is the Hawks playing BIG.

 

A lineup of

• Trae
• Hunter
• JJ
• Collins
• Capela

. . is one I wouldn't be against throwing at opponents in certain points of a game.   That's the biggest lineup we can play, without affecting the offense or defense greatly.

 I agree here. 
Let me clarify I don’t think JJ would be good at 2, but my bumbling point was that the idea of Dre at the 2 is so bad that even JJ would be better than him there. IDK, I shot and missed there. 

But anyway, yes, I would like to see JJ replace Dre at the 3 within the next year. @NBASupes keeps wanting JJ to replace JC at the 4, but I think he’d be better at the 3. I’m not saying Supes is wrong, bc some of his skills would fit better as a 4 than a 3, but I think overall he’d have more success as a 3. Especially like @TheNorthCydeRises suggested here going with a bigger, longer lineup, which will help with the smaller back court. 
Dre isn’t a bad player, but he may be more valuable as a trade piece for us than he is as a player. 

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

Supes is wrong,

[NBASupes]

24 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

 I agree here. 
Let me clarify I don’t think JJ would be good at 2, but my bumbling point was that the idea of Dre at the 2 is so bad that even JJ would be better than him there. IDK, I shot and missed there. 

But anyway, yes, I would like to see JJ replace Dre at the 3 within the next year. @NBASupes keeps wanting JJ to replace JC at the 4, but I think he’d be better at the 3. I’m not saying Supes is wrong, bc some of his skills would fit better as a 4 than a 3, but I think overall he’d have more success as a 3. Especially like @TheNorthCydeRises suggested here going with a bigger, longer lineup, which will help with the smaller back court. 
Dre isn’t a bad player, but he may be more valuable as a trade piece for us than he is as a player. 

He can't offensively play on the perimeter full time. He just isn't really good in the half court. He's mainly a transition player on offense. His best spot is at the 4 on offense. On defense, he has more upside defending the perimeter although he's not good right now at it, he has potential 

If there is a player prototype for JJ, it's Jaden McDaniels. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

This is to @TheNorthCydeRises and @benhillboy @bird_dirt and @macdaddy

Look at 

D. Hunter - S. Bey - J. Johnson

ATL

3

12

138.5

116.0

22.5

Something about them at the 2/3/4 has some potential. While I don't like the idea of Hunter as a fulltime 2. There is some potential there with these 3. 

I want to see it more with both Trae and Murray

D. Murray - D. Hunter - S. Bey - J. Johnson

ATL

2

8

135.3

100.0

35.3

30.0

3.00

14.3

16.7

85.7

53.8

0.1

70.0

68.6

101.32

69.1

T. Young - D. Hunter - S. Bey - J. Johnson

ATL

2

4

144.4

144.4

0.0

50.0

2.00

14.3

60.0

100

75.0

0.1

55.6

63.0

116.23

44.9

It's been an offensive monster unit. 

[NBASupes]

T. Young - D. Hunter - S. Bey - J. Johnson ATL 2 4 144.4 144.4 0.0 50.0 2.00 14.3 60.0 100 75.0 0.1 55.6 63.0 116.23 

 

D. Murray - D. Hunter - S. Bey - J. Johnson ATL 2 8 135.3 100.0 35.3 30.0 3.00 14.3 16.7 85.7 53.8 0.1 70.0 68.6 

Edited March 14, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

Why Trae/Hunter/Bey/Johnson has potential

S. Bey - J. Johnson

ATL

9

109

128.6

104.2

24.4

52.8

2.33

Because Bey and Johnson have perfected their value together. JJ ability to defend the 3 better than the 4 and with his potential to actually be good at it gives him some Jaden McDaniels upside. Bey can't defend 3s well at all. He does below average against big wings and 4s but he's bad defending 2/3. While I do question JJ ability to defend 3s consistently, he simply needs more exp as we saw from OO a couple years ago.

Offensively, JJ is exclusively a 4. He's a terrific cutter like Bazemore but his off-ball movement leaves room to be desired. He's lightyears away from JC who's elite at it. His ability to rebound on D and start a transition attack is as good as there is for someone so young. His shooting is streaky from range and due to his lack of a first step, he's not really a threat in isolation. He does have ability to attack aggressive closeouts and he is a formidable ball-hander and his a tremendous passer in live ball situations. He doesn't really have a modern role on offense outside of his playmaking which kind of gives Draymond vibes. Trae has struggled playing with him till Bey joined because of his style that simply doesn't vibe with Trae as his 4 game on offense really doesn't vibe as he's not much of a screener and his movement is rather limited and his shooting is inconsistent. 

Pre-ASB

T. Young - J. Johnson

ATL

46

320

105.6

110.1

-4.5

54.6

Why does he work with Bey? Bey is an elite floor spacer like Kevin. They have the elite ability to find open spots on offense. Tony Snell also had it as well. It's not really a special skill until you need it. It's more valuable when you have talented creators. Bey offensively is a 3. He's a 3-level scorer who can attack the rim although he's not a good finisher. He is best at open spot-up shots where he's lethal. Defensively, he struggles badly on the perimeter. His lack of lateral quickness and he's heavy-footed so he struggles to stay in front of guys.  He's best at 4 on D where he can use his size and strength but at the same time, he has good awareness and he understands positioning.

JJ has weaknesses that Bey covers for and Bey has weaknesses that JJ covers. It's not shocking, JJ been much better with Bey and his rotations with Bey and him have been good for others playing with them like Murray, Young, Hunter, and Okongwu. 

Because of this, it makes it easier for Trae to play with them because JJ is around an elite floor spacer and usually around a good shooter who can really score in Bogi. Spacing is optimal so JJ doesn't get in Trae's way and he can just play Bazemore ball and not get in the way as he did before the Bey trade. 

As for Hunter, I've been against moving him to the 2. Why? He would be taking on all guards and that's difficult at his height and size on a nightly basis. That said, he can split that with JJ. While they have to work on a lot of little things. The size of Hunter/Bey/JJ is very interesting 2-4. 

I do believe OO might just be too small at the 5 for this long term, I do see potential in this mainly due to Bey's spacing. 

 

 

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, AHF said:

Crazy to only care about one side of the ball but JC is only a solid defender, not a great one.  He gets abused in some matchups and holds his own in others but never is a dominating defender.  He isn’t good enough on offense or defense not to contribute meaningfully on both sides of the ball.

I don’t think he is a must trade depending what we do at center (like if we hit a home run and traded for Embiid I can see JC working well beside him) but his reduced rebounding on both ends and his struggles on offense are a problem for us in the absence of a move like that.  I am not as tied to him as I’ve been in the past.

Hopefully this is the worst season of his career but I remain worried whether we are looking at a before/after career with his finger injury.

I would say that even with the finger, his midrange and free throw shooting hasn't been bad.  I think his longball is not what it used to be.   However, I don't think he needs to be a stretch PF in the first place.   He would dominate PNR action if we used him that way.