Trae Young voted most overrated player in the NBA by his peers

[NBASupes]

2023 Clippers Russell Westbrook is a million times better than 2023 Lakers and he's the same f***ing player. But Westbrook at 48 million is 50x worse than Westbrook at 1 million. 

[NBASupes]

To me, Trae is good. He's not very good or all star level but he's good. I honestly think Murray is better. I think Murray is very good but he's not a star. Just a very good player. Whereas Trae is an offensive star. 

If Trae is in his usual ideal when we had Kevin and Bogi starting, he's a very good player but is the woat defensively in that situation and you can't win. We got Hunter next to him. Elite defensive versatility but is that good enough next to Trae, maybe its not. I am starting to believe, it's not. But we can't afford an upgrade for Hunter as big wings are at a premium. 

Then you got Okongwu who has turned himself into the perfect fit even for winning ball. His time is coming, thank goodness. 

We got a center issue. We need a center who can create at a very good rate and create for others at a very good rate or be elite at create for himself or others. Those are extremely difficult to find and cost a great deal. 

Idk if we are fixable and this is why I was shocked Quin would come here. It's not a bright situation unless you can get Ant or someone of that caliber for Trae in a trade. 

[NBASupes]

I strongly believe Okongwu is the next Horace Grant with more switchbility abilities. He's legit to me.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

 

https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2019/01/26/steve-kerr-praises-al-horford-as-perfect-modern-day-center/

I think we all understand that Horford is a stretch big. There is no doubt CC struggles with stretch bigs.  Are we supposed to be reading this as evidence of him being a superstar?  (Let alone a superstar in 2023?)

Horford scored 6 points last game against a center who struggles covering people on the perimeter.  He is an offensive afterthought who still helps despite being the 5th option on the floor with useful passing, using moving screens, and floor spacing.  Great role player.  Not a star of any kind at this stage in his career.

[REHawksFan]

This thread is the epitome of message board hero talk of, "I know basketball and you don't.  I don't care what the numbers say, I say player x is trash so he's trash.  If you don't believe me, you don't know basketball."  

enter sidekick:  "yeah, you tell em. We "all" see the same thing you do with all your message board genius. Everyone else is just dumb."  Blah, blah, blah....

 

[Diesel]

34 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think we all understand that Horford is a stretch big. There is no doubt CC struggles with stretch bigs.  Are we supposed to be reading this as evidence of him being a superstar?  (Let alone a superstar in 2023?)

Horford scored 6 points last game against a center who struggles covering people on the perimeter.  He is an offensive afterthought who still helps despite being the 5th option on the floor with useful passing, using moving screens, and floor spacing.  Great role player.  Not a star of any kind at this stage in his career.

I would leave CC in the paint and put DJ on Al. 

 

[Diesel]

57 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

To me, Trae is good. He's not very good or all star level but he's good. I honestly think Murray is better.

 

The problem is....

Murray is inefficient.   Murray is not as good a defender as he was sold.  Murray is one of the league leaders in turnovers by lost balls. 

I love Murray's Midrange game... when he has it going... but he needs to go back to the lab... put on about 20 lbs... and work on his handle. 

 

[warcore]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

But Westbrook at 48 million is 50x worse than Westbrook at 1 million. 

Well, technically it's 48x worse 

[NBASupes]

26 minutes ago, warcore said:

Well, technically it's 48x worse 

The fit issues with LAL is responsible for 2x

[Plainview1981]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

At some point, ya'll gonna have to see it deeper. 

Trae has insane usage. 

Doesn't play off the ball

Is one of the worst decision makers in the NBA

You can't be scheme flexible on offense and that's suppose to be his biggest strength is his offensive abilities 

While he's a good shooter, he shoots way too much for just a good shooter and he doesn't have the iso skills or dominance like an Allen Iverson to really justify a small 6ft guy shooting as much as he does. 

His play is very moody and inconsistent. It almost seems like it's a job for him and not fun. He even stated, playoffs are fun, RS is boring

The best thing about him is his insane ability to shoot or pass on the fly in any situation like Harden but he's even more flexible than Harden but Harden had elite iso skills and a was an excellent shooter to justify his volume. He also has a much better offensive frame. 

This is just on offense. Defense, it's a nightmare with Trae. 

Let's compare him to John Stockton who was the best Utah player by a million miles over pedo Malone. 

John is elite on or off the ball. He was constantly moving offensively. He was strong, he could set screens. He was be just as lethal in today's NBA as he was back then. 

John was an elite decision maker, sure he was limited in terms of shoot or pass on the fly flexible to a large degree but he made up for it in his decision making and always making the right decisions. 

He had elite scheme versatility 

I could run every system known to man with Stockton and be successful 

You can say Stockton is just a good shooter too, not very good, excellent, or elite just like Trae but his volume was much much lower once again, justifying his shooting skills. 

Once again, I won't even bother to talk defense, John's defense with his offense is why he's a top 5 all time PG. I am just talking offense on this comp. 

 

While ya'll see 28/10

I see poor shot selection 

Limited schematically

Extremely poor decision making that makes it hard to value the rare pass or shoot on the fly gifts or the rare super elite vision he has. 

You see the value of 10 assists, I see the extreme ball dominance killing ball movement and player movement basically making this is heliocentric offense as long as Trae is on the court. 

Trae offensive impact can be legit or horrendous just depending how you look at the game. For me, I am a neutral, I see the value but I also see the ugly. 

For many here, you can't see the game that broadly and that's fine but there is a reason why many think he's overrated. They just think he's a scrub with a green light who does nothing for winning. Whereas his supporters see him as a superstar that's just as good as Luka without the whistle Luka gets. Whereas I see him as a better shooting Stephon Marbury with boosted tendencies and a worse overall defender. 

This is Trae. 

The Trae of this year would struggle to shoot 40% in the more hard-nosed era's.

[StonedDogs]

Trae is good, not great. 

He's an all star per Hawks standard but not a superstar or olympian by far. 

He's a 2 not a 1

He's the NBA version of a 7th grade Julian Newman. 

[NBASupes]

Trae Young career path:

Atlanta year 6-10

We trade Murray for picks

We trade Capela and JC for Ayton and Shamet

We finish .500 for the next 2 years

After 2026, Trae is traded to another team for a discounted player and picks. He makes one All Star on his next team, gets a 3rd contract and within 2 years, regressed fast and washes out of the league. 

3 All Stars. 

One trip to the ECF

 

Trae traded to Houston. 

Rockets get Wemby or Miller. 

They have Smith Jr. 

They want to develop their bigs but also get a vet center like Clint. 

They have cap and sign a shooting SG

They have shooting everywhere

Shock people, make the play in, Trae is an all star with a very promising team.

Low seed, still playin a year later, another All Star game

Now expectations are higher for Trae. Still a lower seed but makes the playoffs. Not an all star. 

Resigns ext in 3rd deal. Struggles some while Wemby and Smith are ready to finally win and he is traded to his 3rd team for a better fit PG. 

At this point, Trae regresses and is out of the league in a couple of years. 

Even with a better personnel grouping, he's still just getting moved when the team really wants to win. 

I think his best chance to win is becoming a washed backup like Jason Williams with the Heat and helping as a reserve on a legit contending team.

Trae's best role is to help with development of young talented players with his creation and since winning isn't the priority, his terrible decision making is meaningless in this situation. I don't believe Trae can help a winning team. 

I would rather move him now for high end young pieces than just wait till it's too late. He still adds a ton of value, just not for where we are at in our stage. Him and JC just don't have a future into the next stage. At least JC could help

Also, OG would be traded for 2023 1st and THJ, not a 2nd. I just used the 2nd as a placeholder. 

[Hawkmoor]

You cant win a championship with players like Trae and his jump shot is not as good as the better scorers in the league. Bogi and Griffin have better jump shots. His stats come off high usage. That's why they say he is overrated.  

Edited April 19, 2023 by Hawkmoor

[benhillboy]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Trae Young career path:

Atlanta year 6-10

We trade Murray for picks

We trade Capela and JC for Ayton and Shamet

We finish .500 for the next 2 years

After 2026, Trae is traded to another team for a discounted player and picks. He makes one All Star on his next team, gets a 3rd contract and within 2 years, regressed fast and washes out of the league. 

3 All Stars. 

One trip to the ECF

 

Trae traded to Houston. 

Rockets get Wemby or Miller. 

They have Smith Jr. 

They want to develop their bigs but also get a vet center like Clint. 

They have cap and sign a shooting SG

They have shooting everywhere

Shock people, make the play in, Trae is an all star with a very promising team.

Low seed, still playin a year later, another All Star game

Now expectations are higher for Trae. Still a lower seed but makes the playoffs. Not an all star. 

Resigns ext in 3rd deal. Struggles some while Wemby and Smith are ready to finally win and he is traded to his 3rd team for a better fit PG. 

At this point, Trae regresses and is out of the league in a couple of years. 

Even with a better personnel grouping, he's still just getting moved when the team really wants to win. 

I think his best chance to win is becoming a washed backup like Jason Williams with the Heat and helping as a reserve on a legit contending team.

Trae's best role is to help with development of young talented players with his creation and since winning isn't the priority, his terrible decision making is meaningless in this situation. I don't believe Trae can help a winning team. 

I would rather move him now for high end young pieces than just wait till it's too late. He still adds a ton of value, just not for where we are at in our stage. Him and JC just don't have a future into the next stage. At least JC could help

Also, OG would be traded for 2023 1st and THJ, not a 2nd. I just used the 2nd as a placeholder. 

You put a lot of thought into that lol.  I think Kyle is gonna have him outta here this summer but I’ll admit I was wrong if he doesn’t.  I had Schlenk’s swift departure coinciding with Trae’s max correct years ago.

Kyle uses some variation/ complication of box, on/ off, win share, rating metrics, etc to help evaluate players like I do and most all other NBA administrators: 

https://hoopshype.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/ 

I’m an old head who certainly doesn’t need to complicate them to regression, luck adjusted, rolling daily values and all that jazz.  I know Kyle won’t accept Trae’s resume:

Trae’s career rating is 115/ 117 (105/ 115 playoffs)

Kyle career rating 113/ 107 (110/ 110 playoffs)

Trae’s career WS/48 is .132 (.040 playoffs)

Kyle career WS/ 48 is .113 (.082 playoffs)

Trae career adjusted shooting -375 FGs added

Kyle career adjusted shooting +1391 FGs added

Trae career on court per 100 is -0.6 (-5.7 playoffs)

Kyle career on court per 100 is +3.5 (+1.6 in the postseason)

Kyle was instrumental in Ferry shipping Joe out as quick as he possibly could for a far superior team build.  He knows how this goes, he’ll take whatever he can get.

[Hawkmoor]

14 hours ago, NBASupes said:

At some point, ya'll gonna have to see it deeper. 

Trae has insane usage. 

Doesn't play off the ball

Is one of the worst decision makers in the NBA

You can't be scheme flexible on offense and that's suppose to be his biggest strength is his offensive abilities 

While he's a good shooter, he shoots way too much for just a good shooter and he doesn't have the iso skills or dominance like an Allen Iverson to really justify a small 6ft guy shooting as much as he does. 

His play is very moody and inconsistent. It almost seems like it's a job for him and not fun. He even stated, playoffs are fun, RS is boring

The best thing about him is his insane ability to shoot or pass on the fly in any situation like Harden but he's even more flexible than Harden but Harden had elite iso skills and a was an excellent shooter to justify his volume. He also has a much better offensive frame. 

This is just on offense. Defense, it's a nightmare with Trae. 

Trae's supporters don't care that he is the anti team basketball player.  Nobody or nothing will tell them any different.  Its a reflection of something much deeper than basketball.  Your comments about Marcus Smart are spot on for instance.  You can win a championship with a role player like Smart, but a supposedly "superstar"  like Trae keeps you in rebuild mode.  The guy has run off TWO head coaches and a GM and still has "supporters".   Trae is hands off and the Hawks would be lucky to get any real value in return for attempting to trade him. Nobody likes him in the NBA.  I've never seen a player where his own head coaches, teammates, other GMS, AND referees universally do not like.   But hey,  yall can still do the "Ice Trae" down at the arena with this "marketing" centerpiece.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Trae's supporters don't care that he is the anti team basketball player.  Nobody or nothing will tell them any different.  Its a reflection of something much deeper than basketball.  Your comments about Marcus Smart are spot on for instance.  You can win a championship with a role player like Smart, but a supposedly "superstar"  like Trae keeps you in rebuild mode.  The guy has run off TWO head coaches and a GM and still has "supporters".   Trae is hands off and the Hawks would be lucky to get any real value in return for attempting to trade him. Nobody likes him in the NBA.  I've never seen a player where his own head coaches, teammates, other GMS, AND referees universally do not like.   But hey,  yall can still do the "Ice Trae" down at the arena with this "marketing" centerpiece.

Trae has great trade value. At the end of the day, he does have tremendous offensive value with spacing. The issue is, when you want to really win, he just gets in the way. On top of that, he will sell a lot of tickets no matter what. He's fun to watch and he makes the game easier for others. 

It's just the level we are at, he doesn't add enough and he cost a lot. That's not as big of a deal for a young team wanting to turn their teens into stars but for a team trying to win and compete in playoffs, he becomes an issue. 

[Hawkmoor]

53 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae has great trade value. At the end of the day, he does have tremendous offensive value with spacing. The issue is, when you want to really win, he just gets in the way. On top of that, he will sell a lot of tickets no matter what. He's fun to watch and he makes the game easier for others. 

It's just the level we are at, he doesn't add enough and he cost a lot. That's not as big of a deal for a young team wanting to turn their teens into stars but for a team trying to win and compete in playoffs, he becomes an issue. 

What is "value" when a player refuses to give value? To say Trae has value is to say that Marcus Smart shouldn't be looked at as having value.  What I mean is I don't care how good a player Trae CAN BE because Trae refuses to be that player.  He has zero value to me as a head coach who wants to win. Smart gives me value because he contributes to a winning team and a winning environment. 

Trae gives me zero value because he, like you said, gets in the way.  For instance, I've seen waay too many games where the Hawks are down big, claw back into the game and then Trae shoots them right back out of the game because he wants to be the "man".  Don't get me started on closing out quarters.  Like you said, he gives zero when it comes to winning.

 

LATE EDIT:  Trae also hinders the progress of other players.  Collins, Hunter, Bogi, etc. look bad playing with Trae.

Edited April 19, 2023 by Hawkmoor

[NBASupes]

23 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

What is "value" when a player refuses to give value? To say Trae has value is to say that Marcus Smart shouldn't be looked at as having value.  What I mean is I don't care how good a player Trae CAN BE because Trae refuses to be that player.  He has zero value to me as a head coach who wants to win. Smart gives me value because he contributes to a winning team and a winning environment. 

Trae gives me zero value because he, like you said, gets in the way.  For instance, I've seen waay too many games where the Hawks are down big, claw back into the game and then Trae shoots them right back out of the game because he wants to be the "man".  Don't get me started on closing out quarters.  Like you said, he gives zero when it comes to winning.

 

LATE EDIT:  Trae also hinders the progress of other players.  Collins, Hunter, Bogi, etc. look bad playing with Trae.

I definitely believe Trae hinders guards and wings but he's the reason JC got stupidly overpaid. JC regression has to do with our personnel changes on a yearly basis and how our spacing got worse nearly every year. 

I value RS play and I believe Trae adds a lot of value to your baseline floor. Especially as he's gotten older. He damn near won 30 games himself last year. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by NBASupes

[bleachkit]

For high usage players to be winning players, they have to be efficient. If you are a high usage player that is inefficient, then you are not helping your team win, at least not consistently. Trae's not a particularly efficient shooter from the field, that's a problem. He's heavily reliant on free throws to boost his scoring and TS%. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but in the playoffs those whistles have a tendency to dry up. I respect his creativity and flair, but I'm not sure he's a guy you can build around, certainly not at max money. 

[Final_quest]

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

For high usage players to be winning players, they have to be efficient. If you are a high usage player that is inefficient, then you are not helping your team win, at least not consistently. Trae's not a particularly efficient shooter from the field, that's a problem. He's heavily reliant on free throws to boost his scoring and TS%. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but in the playoffs those whistles have a tendency to dry up. I respect his creativity and flair, but I'm not sure he's a guy you can build around, certainly not at max money. 

I would say that he regressed this year.  Last year he was remarkably efficient.  This was his least efficient year since rookie season.  Why I was stunned he got any criticism last year, he shot 38/51/90.  There's not much improvement on those numbers.