John Collins Traded - Fare thee well!

[SalvorMallow]

Haha @NateMcMilkdud I love it! 

[Final_quest]

Hate being in a position where Collins succeeding would feel like a Hawks failure.  That being said I don't think we will have big regrets about letting him go, just regrets about not trading him for peak value.  

[JayBirdHawk]

19 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

Haha @NateMcMilkdud I love it! 

maaan....I did not even see that! 

[JayBirdHawk]

Not a Hollinger fan, but the highlighted part was funny .

 

[JustSomeGuy]

3 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Hate being in a position where Collins succeeding would feel like a Hawks failure.  That being said I don't think we will have big regrets about letting him go, just regrets about not trading him for peak value.  

He’s earning that from me with his comments since the trade. We think of him as a leader but it hasn’t been lost on me that the idea of addition by subtraction can include removing a sour attitude from a locker room as well. 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

• 1
•  
•  
•  

Hardy had a sit down talk with him to help insure support and said:
“His input is valuable,” Hardy said. “And it’s for John to understand too that we want to help him but we’re also not going to make our team and the game about him. It’s a work in progress. Today was a big step in the right direction. We were able to — after the conversation he and I had and after our staff meeting and watching the film — sort of iron some things out. I think we refined a few things today.”

 

https://www.deseret.com/2023/10/12/23914316/utah-jazz-john-collins-easing-way-into-new-system-will-hardy

[sturt]

19 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

removing a sour attitude

Among the most intensely revisionist history comments I recall reading anywhere in quite awhile... years, for sure... well, with the exception of the political realm, where it's practically an every day experience.

Nahbabanah... a guy doesn't erase all of his good vibes by being candid after having been kicked to the curb by the team where he'd been by practically anyone and everyone's account at the time he was with the team the most consistently positive force, day-in-day-out, in spite of a lot of very-public headwinds to that.

C'mon. The sellers' remorse, trying to find some way to actually feel even just neutral about selling your stock at an all-time low for the company, is understandable, but don't just make crap up.

 

[sturt]

50 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

• 1
•  
•  
•  

Hardy had a sit down talk with him to help insure support and said:
“His input is valuable,” Hardy said. “And it’s for John to understand too that we want to help him but we’re also not going to make our team and the game about him. It’s a work in progress. Today was a big step in the right direction. We were able to — after the conversation he and I had and after our staff meeting and watching the film — sort of iron some things out. I think we refined a few things today.”

 

https://www.deseret.com/2023/10/12/23914316/utah-jazz-john-collins-easing-way-into-new-system-will-hardy

 

Quote

It’s not just new teammates and new personalities. There’s a lot of stuff between the lines that feels very new for Collins. Hardy’s system calls for a lot more movement and read actions than Collins is used to. Coming from a team where he was largely playing in pick-and-roll or stationed in the corners, he’s having to learn a fairly new way of playing the game.

 

 

Not really interested in a deep dive on the question, but I wonder how much of a change it's going to be compared to what he would have had under Quin, now that Quin's installing his stuff fully instead of the hybrid that JC played under for the last of the season. It's been my impression that Hardy and Snyder share a lot of similar philosophy, but I could be assuming too much, dunno.

 

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, sturt said:

Among the most intensely revisionist history comments I recall reading anywhere in quite awhile... years, for sure... well, with the exception of the political realm, where it's practically an every day experience.

Nahbabanah... a guy doesn't erase all of his good vibes by being candid after having been kicked to the curb by the team where he'd been by practically anyone and everyone's account at the time he was with the team the most consistently positive force, day-in-day-out, in spite of a lot of very-public headwinds to that.

C'mon. The sellers' remorse, trying to find some way to actually feel even just neutral about selling your stock at an all-time low for the company, is understandable, but don't just make crap up.

 

Given how JC's role transformed, I think he responded on the far side of positivity.  Saw a few grumbles over the years but largely just sucked it up and played his role.  

How JC's role ends up this year and where his numbers end up are a fascinating thing for me given the system and personnel in Utah with him.  If he was going somewhere where they played more like we did when JC had his 20/10 I would be confident his numbers would spike but that is far from clear to me.  TBD from my perspective.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

 

 

 

Not really interested in a deep dive on the question, but I wonder how much of a change it's going to be compared to what he would have had under Quin, now that Quin's installing his stuff fully instead of the hybrid that JC played under for the last of the season. It's been my impression that Hardy and Snyder share a lot of similar philosophy, but I could be assuming too much, dunno.

 

I don't think you missed there at all.   Quin and Hardy are similar in approach in my opinion.   I don't think we ran any of Quin's stuff last season, so it's a large Learning Curve for JC just as it will be for Trae and our guys. 

 

[JustSomeGuy]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

Among the most intensely revisionist history comments I recall reading anywhere in quite awhile... years, for sure... well, with the exception of the political realm, where it's practically an every day experience.

Nahbabanah... a guy doesn't erase all of his good vibes by being candid after having been kicked to the curb by the team where he'd been by practically anyone and everyone's account at the time he was with the team the most consistently positive force, day-in-day-out, in spite of a lot of very-public headwinds to that.

C'mon. The sellers' remorse, trying to find some way to actually feel even just neutral about selling your stock at an all-time low for the company, is understandable, but don't just make crap up.

 

Atlanta didn’t “kick him to the curb”. They gave him an opportunity to change his family’s life, paid him 100 million dollars, and he didn’t produce. His game did not continue to grow and evolve and it made him and his contract expendable. 

This isn’t personal. It’s business. Yeah hiring McMillan and his nonexistent offense probably did him no favors but John is who he is as a player and squeezing sour grapes at this point. 

[JustSomeGuy]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

 

 

 

Not really interested in a deep dive on the question, but I wonder how much of a change it's going to be compared to what he would have had under Quin, now that Quin's installing his stuff fully instead of the hybrid that JC played under for the last of the season. It's been my impression that Hardy and Snyder share a lot of similar philosophy, but I could be assuming too much, dunno.

 

Agreed on this. The problem is that playing in this type of system also doesn’t play to his strengths as a player, either. Which is probably part of why Atlanta traded him away.

[sturt]

8 minutes ago, JustSomeGuy said:

Atlanta didn’t “kick him to the curb”. They gave him an opportunity to change his family’s life, paid him 100 million dollars, and he didn’t produce. His game did not continue to grow and evolve and it made him and his contract expendable. 

Nonsense.

Two things can be true at the same time. And are.

Not sure what exactly qualifies to you as "kick him to the curb," but use whatever other language you consider fair... the point was, they got rid of him, and not for anything of any value in return. That happened.

And while I could quibble with some of it, I can accept the rest of your characterization in a general way.

But none of that has anything to do with his good vibes while he was with Atlanta. You're conflating his candid disappointment after being traded with his professional positivity before being traded. And trying to reach a sellers' remorse conclusion, "Oh, he was a bad apple anyhow."

Not rational.

Be fair to John.

[JustSomeGuy]

@sturtthe fact that they got nothing in return for him was certainly not Atlanta’s choice but a reflection of his perceived value across the league. That’s not Atlanta’s fault. 

If Atlanta thought little of him, how much less do other teams think of him to not be willing to part with ANY assets of value to acquire him?

I can acknowledge that John was phased out of the offense and probably didn’t fit into the teams long term plans and even that he sacrificed for the team. I can also acknowledge that his game has significant warts. If he saw himself as a frontline player, those flaws manifested in far too much inconsistency and long stretches of non production on the court. That’s not Atlanta’s fault, that’s on him. Hell he lost touches to more productive players, anyone else willing to take the ball out of Trae’s hands to appease John? What about Murray? To do that is just asinine. 

But Clearly that’s Utah’s problem now given the quote above. The offense will not revolve around John, nor should it. And the irony in his comments about ego is he is the only player who has openly complained about touches on this team. Addition by subtraction is real. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by JustSomeGuy

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[AHF]

JC is averaging like 8 points and 4 rebounds this preseason.  Maybe that qualifies as doing better but I'm not sure it does.

[Watchman]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:13 AM, SalvorMallow said:

Haha @NateMcMilkdud I love it! 

E

 

On 10/13/2023 at 2:11 PM, JustSomeGuy said:

@sturtthe fact that they got nothing in return for him was certainly not Atlanta’s choice but a reflection of his perceived value across the league. That’s not Atlanta’s fault. 

If Atlanta thought little of him, how much less do other teams think of him to not be willing to part with ANY assets of value to acquire him?

I can acknowledge that John was phased out of the offense and probably didn’t fit into the teams long term plans and even that he sacrificed for the team. I can also acknowledge that his game has significant warts. If he saw himself as a frontline player, those flaws manifested in far too much inconsistency and long stretches of non production on the court. That’s not Atlanta’s fault, that’s on him. Hell he lost touches to more productive players, anyone else willing to take the ball out of Trae’s hands to appease John? What about Murray? To do that is just asinine. 

But Clearly that’s Utah’s problem now given the quote above. The offense will not revolve around John, nor should it. And the irony in his comments about ego is he is the only player who has openly complained about touches on this team. Addition by subtraction is real. 

The trade was all about saving money for the owners.  Period. (Well, and to appease Trae.) They gave away Collins for a bag of chips and a half empty can of Coke.  There is not a single player on this team whose game doesn't have very significant warts.  It's okay.  You can admit it.  You don't like Collins. That's no secret.  I'm sure Collins did not expect the offense to revolve around him, but including him on a pick and roll every now and then would not be unreasonable.  Ask Embiid which player he'd rather defend on a PNR, Collins or Capella. Capella never posterized  him.  I've never seen Capella look down at the rim.  Sending Collins down to the corner and rarely, if ever passing the ball to him would frustrate any player, especially one with some degree of offensive ability.  Trae got his panties in a wad because Collins dared to call him out about moving the ball. around.  Criticism of Trae is not allowed without retribution.

[Diesel]

I think that we have to admit the lack of creativity of Nate's offense really hurt JC.   I believe JC would have flourished under Snyder.  JC just ran into a world of bad things happening at the same time.   The Injury to his finger, his change in role, Nate becoming Head Coach, and CC being the inside man really hurt JC and made him a guy who would get 5 shots a game from the corner.   It wasn't his fault and yes it was bad.   So I can imagine that in Utah, even though he will have his challenges there, things are way better.   For the time being....   

He still has to play the game with guys who don't pass. 

[JustSomeGuy]

7 hours ago, Watchman said:

E

 

The trade was all about saving money for the owners.  Period. (Well, and to appease Trae.) They gave away Collins for a bag of chips and a half empty can of Coke.  There is not a single player on this team whose game doesn't have very significant warts.  It's okay.  You can admit it.  You don't like Collins. That's no secret.  I'm sure Collins did not expect the offense to revolve around him, but including him on a pick and roll every now and then would not be unreasonable.  Ask Embiid which player he'd rather defend on a PNR, Collins or Capella. Capella never posterized  him.  I've never seen Capella look down at the rim.  Sending Collins down to the corner and rarely, if ever passing the ball to him would frustrate any player, especially one with some degree of offensive ability.  Trae got his panties in a wad because Collins dared to call him out about moving the ball. around.  Criticism of Trae is not allowed without retribution.

So you’re saying Trae forced John out? And the team gave him away for nothing to Utah when there were better deals on the table… because why? 

I don’t dislike John. I think he is a winning rotational player. What I didn’t like was his contract and production value, which made him expendable. There are a lot of apologists for his game who make all of his failures, other players/circumstances fault. John is, at best, a third/fourth option whose star profile rose because he was playing on a talentless roster and got a chance to put up more numbers than he otherwise would’ve. Just because he can jump high at the rim doesn’t mean he was good. Especially when he’s a poor post defender, poor perimeter defender, poor playmaker, poor shot creator, and last season a poor spot up shooter, who deals with long bouts of ineffectiveness. 

The man literally had a two rebound playoff game against a team that played a 4 guard offense. 

[GameTime]

I miss John already. At least we got Rudy Gay.