John Collins Traded - Fare thee well!

[sturt]

Some friends of mine would do well to go to basketball-reference, bring up JC's page, and study his 2022-23 splits. There you will find, maybe to your horror, a trend... not so good early... much more Baptist-like late. But/and also, bear in mind the other changes to the team that we all well understand. Just sayin.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Some friends of mine would do well to go to basketball-reference, bring up JC's page, and study his 2022-23 splits. There you will find, maybe to your horror, a trend... not so good early... much more Baptist-like late. But/and also, bear in mind the other changes to the team that we all well understand. Just sayin.

I think it is more of a mixed bag than that.  Compare the year over year with the breakdown over time last year and you don't get a true return to form at any point last season over a meaningful period of time.  The one thing that definitively got better over time was his 3pt shooting but that came with a drop in rebounding, blocks and steals etc. that makes it that mixed bag.  (And the change in minutes per game doesn't fully account for those drops.)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Oh, he started at the 3? Interesting.

I think Lauri is the 3 on that team, despite being 7 ft. He by far has better handles than JC.

 

Utah's starting lineup

 

PG - Sexton

G - Horton-Tucker

F - Collins

PF - Maarkanen

C - Kessler

 

6th man - Clarkson

 

It'll be interesting to see if Collins' ppg stays the same, but his assists significantly go up.  There are too many offensive minded players for Collins to be no more than the 4th option in the offense.  But I can see him maybe averaging 5 assists per game, if he gets more touches and acts as a facilitator.

If he could average 14 ppg - 7 rebs - 5 asst . . . I would consider that an efficient season for JC.

Edited October 9, 2023 by TheNorthCydeRises

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

PG - Sexton

G - Horton-Tucker

F - Collins

PF - Maarkanen

C - Kessler

If he could average 14 ppg - 7 rebs - 5 asst???

6, 13, 10, 5 - these are the shot attempts by the other starter respectively. JC had 3 shot attempts.

5 assists? - don't see it.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

6, 13, 10, 5 - these are the shot attempts by the other starter respectively. JC had 3 shot attempts.

5 assists? - don't see it.

He was by far the most efficient player on the Jazz  but yeah, not a lot of touches.   Maybe since it's preseason they are holding back.  I would like to see him be at least a 14/8 player out there. 

 

[sturt]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

but that came with a drop in rebounding, blocks and steals

 

6 hours ago, sturt said:

But/and also, bear in mind the other changes to the team that we all well understand. Just sayin.

 

It was mixed. Yes. Absolutely.

But lucidly, I agree with the affirmation that JC's regression could best be explained by his finger.  So, when we see his scoring improve, that's addressing the primary concern. The other? That's most rationally explained by the new coach/coaching philosophies after the break. We can quantify that to some degree, too, because there was like a 7 point shift in offensive rating (~116 to ~123) and approximately the same shift in defensive rating. JC mirrored that, and it's indicative of significant differences in playing styles. I'm slow to be persuaded that there was any actual JC-centric reason for those other stats. I chalk that up to what he was being asked to do by his new coach.

 

 

 

[AHF]

16 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I think Lauri is the 3 on that team, despite being 7 ft. He by far has better handles than JC.

 

Utah's starting lineup

 

PG - Sexton

G - Horton-Tucker

F - Collins

PF - Maarkanen

C - Kessler

 

6th man - Clarkson

 

It'll be interesting to see if Collins' ppg stays the same, but his assists significantly go up.  There are too many offensive minded players for Collins to be no more than the 4th option in the offense.  But I can see him maybe averaging 5 assists per game, if he gets more touches and acts as a facilitator.

If he could average 14 ppg - 7 rebs - 5 asst . . . I would consider that an efficient season for JC.

I think you are dreaming if you expect 5 assists from JC.  3 assists per game would represent a huge increase for him and is much more realistic.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

I think you are dreaming if you expect 5 assists from JC.  3 assists per game would represent a huge increase for him and is much more realistic.

I'm just saying.  He's playing with a bunch of people which are not known for their facilitation.

Sexton and Clarkson are score first guards.  Maarkanen is a score first forward.  The best passer on the team may be backup PG Kris Dunn.

If Collins transformed himself into a Draymond Green lite in the half court offense, that's how he can help his team the most.

[warcore]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The best passer on the team may be backup PG Kris Dunn.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

51 minutes ago, warcore said:

 

I ain't lying . . . lol

[warcore]

38 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I ain't lying . . . lol

one more lottery pick by design Dann-E

[AHF]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I ain't lying . . . lol

Unfortunately for them, JC is not close to the best even with that cast.  (For example, Olynyk is a much better passer as a big.)

[thecampster]

On 9/21/2023 at 2:21 PM, AHF said:

I feel like he went from a 20/10 guy excited about where things were going to someone who was basically told on offense to stand outside and function as an outlet shooter while Trae and Clint ran the pick and roll.  I didn't see the same degree of degradation on defense you did (actually think he improved in some respects there after CC's arrival) but I am sure he felt marginalized and that it led to him disengaging and disappearing at times the last year or two.  It will be interesting because I've got lots of questions for how he fits in Utah.  (Like, a lineup with him at center and with Lauri at PF is not real big and strong. That could struggle on the boards and with rim protection, etc.)

 

Its just one season and a lot of factors go into it, I know.  But 1.7 PP/100 possessions better on defense. Its  hard to explain and is all subjective but stats do back up his defense had regressed.

 

2020-21

 

2021-22

 

2022-23

 

His 2020-21 numbers to 22-23 is a crazy drop-off.

We got worse as a team which is adding to it but the defense regressed.

Edited October 10, 2023 by thecampster

[JustSomeGuy]

If playing with CC was what held him back in Atlanta how will playing alongside Kessler be any different?

Edited October 11, 2023 by JustSomeGuy

[AHF]

14 hours ago, thecampster said:

 

Its just one season and a lot of factors go into it, I know.  But 1.7 PP/100 possessions better on defense. Its  hard to explain and is all subjective but stats do back up his defense had regressed.

2022-23

 

Bear in mind this was not unique among our starters.

Defense was:

Trae:  2.2 worse when Trae was on the court

DM:  1.4 worse when DM was on the court

Hunter:  2.1 worse when Dre was on the court

JC:  1.7 worse when JC was on the court

CC: 3.0 worse when CC was on the court

 

I'm going to suggest that maybe just possibly you are looking at trends that were more about how the starters and bench played and less about how JC in particular played.  By these numbers, CC was brutally bad on defense and may have been the worst defender on the team.  (I don't think CC was our worst defender fwiw).

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

If playing with CC was what held him back in Atlanta how will playing alongside Kessler be any different?

It's a different offense.   Unfortunately, the truth is that they have no passers in Utah.   It's like guys out there with the ball trying to create their own shot or create some offense.   I was a fan of Collin Sexton but he has not stepped up since being in the league. 

[JayBirdHawk]

Random Jazz Fans thoughts:

 

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Random Jazz Fans thoughts:

 

I feel like JC is destined to be a C.  Maybe a backup C.   I love the guy but he needs to concentrate on being more like Horford.   JC's mid range game is great but no one wants to make that a significant part of their offense anymore.   

[JustSomeGuy]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

It's a different offense.   Unfortunately, the truth is that they have no passers in Utah.   It's like guys out there with the ball trying to create their own shot or create some offense.   I was a fan of Collin Sexton but he has not stepped up since being in the league. 

Agreed. Sexton is definitely more of a 6th man than lead guard but this goes what I’ve been saying that this Utah team does not play to his strengths.

Can’t play as rim runner, no passer to create easy baskets, still will have challenges creating his own shot. 

[JayBirdHawk]

On 10/10/2023 at 1:03 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I'm just saying.  He's playing with a bunch of people which are not known for their facilitation.

Sexton and Clarkson are score first guards.  Maarkanen is a score first forward.  The best passer on the team may be backup PG Kris Dunn.

If Collins transformed himself into a Draymond Green lite in the half court offense, that's how he can help his team the most.

If he's not playing with a bunch of facilitators and isn't getting enough shot attempts, it's more likely when he touches the ball he'll shoot it.  Passing has always been his weakness so becoming Draymond is not an easy thing to do.  It can lead to this: