John Collins Traded - Fare thee well!

[Diesel]

29 minutes ago, JustSomeGuy said:

What I didn’t like was his contract and production value, which made him expendable. There are a lot of apologists for his game who make all of his failures, other players/circumstances fault. John is, at best, a third/fourth option whose star profile rose because he was playing on a talentless roster and got a chance to put up more numbers than he otherwise would’ve.

I think this is the effect of watching him play in a system that was bad for his game.   You really don't know what JC's best is.  You act like you've seen it, but you have not.   Otherwise, you wouldn't dismiss the pre-CC JC  so easily. I've never been one to judge a player by their contract.   If they are a cog on a winning team, who cares.   Do people in GS look at Klay or Draymond and say... these dudes are worthless?  No.   They work within the context that they have been given.   

[JustSomeGuy]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I think this is the effect of watching him play in a system that was bad for his game.   You really don't know what JC's best is.  You act like you've seen it, but you have not.   Otherwise, you wouldn't dismiss the pre-CC JC  so easily. I've never been one to judge a player by their contract.   If they are a cog on a winning team, who cares.   Do people in GS look at Klay or Draymond and say... these dudes are worthless?  No.   They work within the context that they have been given.   

I don’t really know what his best system is, Especially not in this modern NBA. He’s not a strong enough post player to be a featured big in a half court offense and not a good enough perimeter player to play in a 4 out offense. He can’t even play as a small ball 5. Especially not in a league with Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, Wemby, etc. I would guess his best game would be as a mid range pick and pop 4, a la, Karl Malone in the 90s but that isn’t the way the game is played anymore. I think his best role is a hustle big, like a Kenneth Faried or Taj Gibson. Winning players but hardly all stars and not paid like them. Maybe JJJ in Memphis but he isn’t as good a rim defender despite his athleticism.

And I disagree that Quin’s system would be good for him for two reasons

1. Because Quin didn’t see him as a system fit. He coached him for half the season and if his input loomed as large as everyone speculated it did in personnel decisions, John would still be here if he wanted him here. His perimeter limitations hurt him. And if a salary dump was the goal there were easier ways to do that with players who were more coveted on the market that would have returned more value. 

2. Because he does none of the things well that Quin’s traditional 4s have done. 

Even look at the preseason and as much on ball action as he have seen from JJ and Bey. John can’t do any of that consistently or effectively. So this isn’t me hating on John, just acknowledging his limitations and poor fit. 
 

Edited October 21, 2023 by JustSomeGuy

[Final_quest]

24 minutes ago, JustSomeGuy said:

I don’t really know what his best system is, Especially not in this modern NBA. He’s not a strong enough post player to be a featured big in a half court offense and not a good enough perimeter player to play in a 4 out offense. He can’t even play as a small ball 5. Especially not in a league with Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, Wemby, etc. I would guess his best game would be as a mid range pick and pop 4, a la, Karl Malone in the 90s but that isn’t the way the game is played anymore. I think his best role is a hustle big, like a Kenneth Faried or Taj Gibson. Winning players but hardly all stars and not paid like them. Maybe JJJ in Memphis but he isn’t as good a rim defender despite his athleticism.

And I disagree that Quin’s system would be good for him for two reasons

1. Because Quin didn’t see him as a system fit. He coached him for half the season and if his input loomed as large as everyone speculated it did in personnel decisions, John would still be here if he wanted him here. His perimeter limitations hurt him. And if a salary dump was the goal there were easier ways to do that with players who were more coveted on the market that would have returned more value. 

2. Because he does none of the things well that Quin’s traditional 4s have done. 

Even look at the preseason and as much on ball action as he have seen from JJ and Bey. John can’t do any of that consistently or effectively. So this isn’t me hating on John, just acknowledging his limitations and poor fit. 
 

I really like the person JC, but he’s a tough fit.  For us we will miss him as a lob threat with the best lob passer in the league.

Agree with what you are saying though.

[RedDawg#8]

JC is definitely an energy big who can offer some inside scoring, some outside shooting, some defense and rim protection, and some leadership.

None of which he does at an elite level, but overall just a solid vet big man at this point in his career. 

His shooting was an asset before it fell off a cliff. His inability to exploit mismatches is ultimately what did him in. It’s fine to be undersized if you can space the floor and pull your defender out of the paint. it’s fine to be a post limited big if you can take advantage of small 4’s and force a double team. JC was not able to do either. 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

And I disagree that Quin’s system would be good for him for two reasons

1. Because Quin didn’t see him as a system fit. He coached him for half the season and if his input loomed as large as everyone speculated it did in personnel decisions, John would still be here if he wanted him here. His perimeter limitations hurt him. And if a salary dump was the goal there were easier ways to do that with players who were more coveted on the market that would have returned more value. 

2. Because he does none of the things well that Quin’s traditional 4s have done. 

Even look at the preseason and as much on ball action as he have seen from JJ and Bey. John can’t do any of that consistently or effectively. So this isn’t me hating on John, just acknowledging his limitations and poor fit. 
 

1.  Quin may have saw value in JC's play.  When asked by upper management can it be replaced, he looked at JJ and Bey and said Yes.   Money saving. 

2.  He PNRs better than any of Quin's traditional 4s have.  He also have shot better from 3 (during his career) than many other 4s that played for Quin. 

Most of his HC career, his PF was Favors...  Favors has a career 3 pt percent of 19%.

 

 

[JustSomeGuy]

50 minutes ago, Diesel said:

1.  Quin may have saw value in JC's play.  When asked by upper management can it be replaced, he looked at JJ and Bey and said Yes.   Money saving. 

2.  He PNRs better than any of Quin's traditional 4s have.  He also have shot better from 3 (during his career) than many other 4s that played for Quin. 

Most of his HC career, his PF was Favors...  Favors has a career 3 pt percent of 19%.

 

 

Your first point leads with a hypothetical/speculative conversation which can’t be proven but still makes my main point. His production was replaceable with cheaper players with higher upside.

Not ironically his upward trajectory as a winning coach coincided with the emergence of Joe Ingles, Jae Crowder, and co in Utah’s lineups. Derrick Favors took a step back in minutes on court and as an offensive focus. His scoring production dropped every winning season Quin was in Utah which coincided with the ascendance of the team in the West. He was also ten times the interior defender John Collins is. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JustSomeGuy said:

Your first point leads with a hypothetical/speculative conversation which can’t be proven but still makes my main point. His production was replaceable with cheaper players with higher upside.

Not ironically his upward trajectory as a winning coach coincided with the emergence of Joe Ingles, Jae Crowder, and co in Utah’s lineups. Derrick Favors took a step back in minutes on court and as an offensive focus. His scoring production dropped every winning season Quin was in Utah which coincided with the ascendance of the team in the West. He was also ten times the interior defender John Collins is. 

His production was replaceable with cheaper players.... Period.   Higher upside remains to be seen.   

If you drive the price of a stock down to it's low... and other stocks are there... they all sell the same at the price.  However, the potential of the stock can change with a new CEO and a New direction.    Again, we've seen a better JC.  

I will concede that Ingles was the PF (not Crowder) and INgles put up good shooting.  But Ingles never scored more than what 12 ppg in 31 mpg.   Ingles was not a PNR PF. He was a catch and shoot PF who you could put on the corner.  Quin used what he had.   Just like you watch JJ and Bey now.  When they are on the court, they are not doing the same thing even though they play the same position.  A good coach knows how to play players to their strengths and brings out his own creativity in using them.    I think Snyder would have found the old JC.   If another coach could do it, Snyder certainly could. 

 

 

[theheroatl]

JC was a weight on our basketball program. We knew this for years.. no more debating it.

[JustSomeGuy]

51 minutes ago, Diesel said:

His production was replaceable with cheaper players.... Period.   Higher upside remains to be seen.   

If you drive the price of a stock down to it's low... and other stocks are there... they all sell the same at the price.  However, the potential of the stock can change with a new CEO and a New direction.    Again, we've seen a better JC.  

I will concede that Ingles was the PF (not Crowder) and INgles put up good shooting.  But Ingles never scored more than what 12 ppg in 31 mpg.   Ingles was not a PNR PF. He was a catch and shoot PF who you could put on the corner.  Quin used what he had.   Just like you watch JJ and Bey now.  When they are on the court, they are not doing the same thing even though they play the same position.  A good coach knows how to play players to their strengths and brings out his own creativity in using them.    I think Snyder would have found the old JC.   If another coach could do it, Snyder certainly could. 

 

 

We saw a “better” JC when we were a worse, talentless team and he was getting 20-10 with teams sleepwalking into our arena every night.

And you’re just making my point again with Ingles. Quin prefers to play 4 out with playmakers on the perimeter. Could he have found a role for JC? Probably. But you don’t pay guys you have to scheme into impact 25 million a year.

Ans again, it doesn’t matter what you “think” Quin could’ve done to unlock It’s a pointless and purely speculative argument because the reality is Quin was a part of the braintrust that decided to trade him away. Meaning QUIN DIDN’T WANT HIM.

Y’all make it sound like the team purposefully sabotaged his career and traded him for nothing to embarrass him, ignoring the fact that if he was as talented as some on this board think he is, teams would have still given up something of value for him knowing the scheme alone was the problem. That isn’t what happened. 

[JayBirdHawk]

JC's first Jazz Game.

15 Points 11 Rebounds* (3 offensive)

2 Assists

1 Steal

55/33/100% shooting splits

63.1% True Shooting%

59.1% eFG%

[Sothron]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

JC's first Jazz Game.

15 Points 11 Rebounds* (3 offensive)

2 Assists

1 Steal

55/33/100% shooting splits

63.1% True Shooting%

59.1% eFG%

I'm cheering for him. I also like the Jazz so is a win/win

[AHF]

27 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I'm cheering for him. I also like the Jazz so is a win/win

You are collecting quite a pool of teams at this point!  

I'm most surprised by JC's rebounding in that one.  He had really struggled with that in the preseason action but I guess I should have followed my own thoughts on preseason action just as I should follow my own point on small sample sizes.  Too early to draw any conclusions but good for him to getting off to a good start.

[Sothron]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

You are collecting quite a pool of teams at this point!  

I'm most surprised by JC's rebounding in that one.  He had really struggled with that in the preseason action but I guess I should have followed my own thoughts on preseason action just as I should follow my own point on small sample sizes.  Too early to draw any conclusions but good for him to getting off to a good start.

There's no franchise I hate. There's teams whose current roster/coach I do not like and root against. For now the Lakers, the Heat, the Celtics and the Sixers are on my do not cheer for list.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Sothron said:

There's no franchise I hate. There's teams whose current roster/coach I do not like and root against. For now the Lakers, the Heat, the Celtics and the Sixers are on my do not cheer for list.

You are missing out on some good fun.  Part of the fun of sports is being able to be irrationally tribal and hate the Celtics and Duke and whoever just on principle.  That is a dangerous thing to do in real life, but sports fandom is a great place to let that rip.  

Join us and express your newfound Celtics hate!

[JayBirdHawk]

40 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I'm cheering for him. I also like the Jazz so is a win/win

How many teams do you have now: Minny, Denver, now UTAH

[Sothron]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

You are missing out on some good fun.  Part of the fun of sports is being able to be irrationally tribal and hate the Celtics and Duke and whoever just on principle.  That is a dangerous thing to do in real life, but sports fandom is a great place to let that rip.  

Join us and express your newfound Celtics hate!

I don't like the Celtics. Outside of the 80's up to Reggie Lewis's death I never cheered for them...okay I did with KG but that's different. 

I think on some level I still blame the Celtics for letting Reggie Lewis go find a doctor to let him play when every other doctor told him if he played again he would die on the court. Which is what happened. I think I still blame them for that. Hrm.

 

[Sothron]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

How many teams do you have now: Minny, Denver, now UTAH

Clippers, Kings, Hornets...I never cheer for them against Atlanta. I have to stress that. You have to remember I'm a coach's kid and I'm a basketball addict. I love the game so much that when teams/players play in a way I like then I'm naturally going to get behind them.

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I don't like the Celtics. Outside of the 80's up to Reggie Lewis's death I never cheered for them...okay I did with KG but that's different. 

I think on some level I still blame the Celtics for letting Reggie Lewis go find a doctor to let him play when every other doctor told him if he played again he would die on the court. Which is what happened. I think I still blame them for that. Hrm.

 

The only era where I didn't absolutely hate the Celtics was the Pitino era where they had a ton of UK players (primarily Ron Mercer, Antoine Walker, and Walter McCarty). That '96 UK team was so much fun to root for that they became my reverse Laettner team.  I loved a lot of the individual players but rooted for them all to fail because they were Celtics.  It helped that they were not really competing with the Hawks for a playoff spot or anything during that era.  (The Hawks were either much better than the Celtics and a playoff team or one of the worst teams in the league during that stretch.)

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

How many teams do you have now: Minny, Denver, now UTAH

My non-Hawk teams are Sac and OKC. Like those squads.

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

JC's first Jazz Game.

15 Points 11 Rebounds* (3 offensive)

2 Assists

1 Steal

55/33/100% shooting splits

63.1% True Shooting%

59.1% eFG%

Jazz fans hate him and say he's not a fit. But many felt he was the best player last night for them