Hawks looking to trade

[kg01]

11 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Garrison sure gets a lot of hate here for a guy who comes off the bench and shoots threes at a 46% clip this season.  His defense is terrible but whose isn't on this team?  At least he's spacing the floor for us.

That's meth-Bogi to you.  Love when he hurls up his wild a** 3's and flails around the court.  

[theheroatl]

17 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Garrison sure gets a lot of hate here for a guy who comes off the bench and shoots threes at a 46% clip this season.  His defense is terrible but whose isn't on this team?  At least he's spacing the floor for us.

Meth Bogi on a budget.. use Bogi as a trade chip

[thecampster]

43 minutes ago, Diesel said:

They'd prolly take it.

1.  To get out of Ben's contract. 
2. To get some insurance in case they can't resign Claxton.
3. Bogi's shooting. 

Why would we do it off of the strength of 1 game played.  Don't get me wrong. I was a big proponent of getting Simmons a while back.  I still like his defense.   Looks like he shut down Markenenn.  I was waiting on the playback.  However,:

1. back injury that required surgery? 
2. Where is his head?
3. We get him move JJ to 3... what happens to DHunt?
4. Or does he become a small ball Center?

I hadn't consider this until now... At 6'10 240..  He matches CC perfectly and we could put him at Center.  To have a great passer at the 5 a good passer at the 4 and Trae and DJ.. we'd be dangerous whipping the ball around.  However, we would miss the hell out of Bogi's shooting.  If Bey were a consistent 38% 3 pt shooter... this could be a good possibility. If we deemed his health to be OK... But I have doubts about that.   We don't need 2 guys sitting in the sand playing with 1 having a max contract and the other holding 20 Million dollars. 

 

Playing the silly game....Hunter plays some 2.

You could easily have lineups like the following with Simmons on the floor.

Bogi Hunter JJ Simmons, Bruno (if you want to go huge on folks)

Trae Bogi JJ Simmons OO (if you want to punish people wanting to trap Trap Trae

Trae Bogi Hunter JJ Simmons (if you want 5 possible ball handlers on the floor at the same time (the hands team)).

Simmons Trae Bogi OO Bruno (against big lineups)

 

The hard part to remember with Simmons is he was traditionally a point guard and can pass over the top of double teams. You have a lot of options with Simmons on the floor. Its not a terrible idea, I just think he can be had for less.

 

But yes, the idea of playing JJ next to Simmons, next to OO is very intriguing defensively.

[Spud2nique]

Let’s send this to the GM’s around the league, attach him to Cap Hunter Bey I dunno and get a vet and some dogs! 
 

Tell the GM’s this happened in a real Atlanta Hawks game, they dumb anyways.  

 

Buf>whoKA

[AHF]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Garrison sure gets a lot of hate here for a guy who comes off the bench and shoots threes at a 46% clip this season.  His defense is terrible but whose isn't on this team?  At least he's spacing the floor for us.

He would be great as the #12, 13 or 14 guy on the roster instead of the #9 guy.  We need the #9 guy to be able to fill in as a starter or major bench player since we have a roster with injury prone players.  He is a low volume high efficiency scorer and that is great for someone much deeper on the bench.  So my personal beef with him is about who he isn't.  As a very limited player he does his one trick pretty well (the % is great, the volume is not special).  

The problem is that he has started as many games this year as OO and played 2x (or more) more minutes than anyone outside of our core 8 rotation.  It is the same sort of thing for why Bey gets grief.  The team suffers when they have to play roles too large for their skill sets.

[deester11]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

He would be great as the #12, 13 or 14 guy on the roster instead of the #9 guy.  We need the #9 guy to be able to fill in as a starter or major bench player since we have a roster with injury prone players.  He is a low volume high efficiency scorer and that is great for someone much deeper on the bench.  So my personal beef with him is about who he isn't.  As a very limited player he does his one trick pretty well (the % is great, the volume is not special).  

The problem is that he has started as many games this year as OO and played 2x (or more) more minutes than anyone outside of our core 8 rotation.  It is the same sort of thing for why Bey gets grief.  The team suffers when they have to play roles too large for their skill sets.

Preach.  Good lord.  Say one thing bad about a player and they got someone coming to their defense.  Jeff!! The post above is spot on.  Aimlessly flailing Jeff

[JeffS17]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

He would be great as the #12, 13 or 14 guy on the roster instead of the #9 guy.  We need the #9 guy to be able to fill in as a starter or major bench player since we have a roster with injury prone players.  He is a low volume high efficiency scorer and that is great for someone much deeper on the bench.  So my personal beef with him is about who he isn't.  As a very limited player he does his one trick pretty well (the % is great, the volume is not special).  

The problem is that he has started as many games this year as OO and played 2x (or more) more minutes than anyone outside of our core 8 rotation.  It is the same sort of thing for why Bey gets grief.  The team suffers when they have to play roles too large for their skill sets.

We fundamentally disagree on what a #9 player on the roster is going to be able to provide.  Expecting quality rotation guys at that depth is a pipe dream if it's not drafted players still on their rookie deals.  A huge bonus if it ends up happening but nowhere close to being an expectation for me.

[JeffS17]

13 minutes ago, deester11 said:

Preach.  Good lord.  Say one thing bad about a player and they got someone coming to their defense.  Jeff!! The post above is spot on.  Aimlessly flailing Jeff

Nah, it's the sentiment here that continues to blame our woes on our end of bench pieces that are marginal difference makers on the court.  You guys act like our #9 guy on a minimum should be playing like a starter.  It's absurd.  The problem with this team is the core is inherently flawed form a fit perspective, not that our end of bench isn't quality enough. 

#9 guys should not even be getting minutes most nights and this is what we're debating.  DJ and Hunter out is $45M or 33% of our cap space, but we're mad that Garrison Matthews doesn't look like Bruce Brown coming off the bench.  We've been in circles about it so it's not worth discussing, but focusing on borderline guys that should not even be getting minutes versus our flawed core (or lack thereof) is just missing the mark. 

If this board has it's way with our roster, we'd be spending $60M on our bench and going into the second apron to lock in a 7th seed for the next two years before blowing it up because that's not tenable.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

We fundamentally disagree on what a #9 player on the roster is going to be able to provide.  Expecting quality rotation guys at that depth is a pipe dream if it's not drafted players still on their rookie deals.  A huge bonus if it ends up happening but nowhere close to being an expectation for me.

So you think it is a unicorn situation to have the kind of depth I'm talking about?  Let's see how many teams don't have wildly more productive players coming off their bench after their top 8.

Team Leaders in Win Shares Outside of the Top 8 in Minutes Played:

Hawks:  0.3 Win Shares

Boston:  1.5 Win Shares  (5x)

Milwaukee:  1.0 Win Shares (3.3x)

Sixers:  1.3 Win Shares (4x)

Knicks:  2.1 Win Shares (7x)

Cavs:  1.6 Win Shares (5.2x)

Pacers:  2.1 Win Shares (7x)

Heat:  2.2 Win Shares (7.2x)

Magic:  1.6 Win Shares (5.2x)

Bulls:  1.2 Win Shares (4x)

Nets:  2.2 Win Shares (7.2x)

 

I'm not wasting my time going further than that.  Not only does every single team have a player who has been massively more productive these individual players have produced more win shares than the entirety of our team in the #9-15 slots.

Again, if Garrison was the #12 guy in our rotation that would be great.  But he is an extreme anomaly for the lack of production we are getting from that part of our lineup.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Garrison sure gets a lot of hate here for a guy who comes off the bench and shoots threes at a 46% clip this season.  His defense is terrible but whose isn't on this team?  At least he's spacing the floor for us.

 

And drawing offensive fouls from opponents.  The fact that he's 2nd on the team behind Trae in total offensive fouls drawn, despite playing 1000 minutes less, is pretty amazing.

 

[deester11]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

And drawing offensive fouls from opponents.  The fact that he's 2nd on the team behind Trae in total offensive fouls drawn, despite playing 1000 minutes less, is pretty amazing.

 

So does this merit more minutes..or less?  I'm not seeing that's he's a difference maker one way or the other.  Of course..when Hunter is back, does that alter the need to play Matthews the same amount of minutes.  It could and should be a moot point. 

[macdaddy]

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Garrison sure gets a lot of hate here for a guy who comes off the bench and shoots threes at a 46% clip this season.  His defense is terrible but whose isn't on this team?  At least he's spacing the floor for us.

I hate that he's basically our #1 bench guy but i don't hate him.   You've hit on what's going on here with the Hawks.   Quin wants effort.   Constant effort.  Not sometimes effort.   The list of guys who bring that are basically Trae, Bey, Bogi, Garrison, CC.   The others are in various stages of learning/wanting to be traded.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 minutes ago, deester11 said:

So does this merit more minutes..or less?  I'm not seeing that's he's a difference maker one way or the other.  Of course..when Hunter is back, does that alter the need to play Matthews the same amount of minutes.  It could and should be a moot point. 

All I say is this.

If Bey is missing a ton of open corner 3s, and Matthews shoots this percentage on corner 3s . . .

 

 

Then maybe the wrong person is getting the bulk of the PT at SF/PF?

[h4wkfan]

No planet is Mathews more deserving of PT then Bey … even when the shot isn’t falling. 

[JeffS17]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm not wasting my time going further than that. 

Please don't, because this is a wildly reductive way to look at bench depth with zero context to broader cap implications and roster construction, and the stat you're pulling out is massively flawed... using win shares, which is ultimately a team success statistic, particularly for end of bench guys -- which is why all the teams listed have better records than us...

Is it surprising that bench guys who share the court with well-constructed, winning, rosters have more win shares?  Our bench playing in Boston would have massive win shares as well -- that's not some revelation you've uncovered.  It's actually just a flawed way to use that statistic.  Our bench is not good but they are absolutely not the problem.  We have one of the best 6th men (Bogi) in the entire league and a solid backup center.  And a solid backup 3/4 (Bey).  

Talking about and focusing on the Matthews is missing an entire forest for two trees.  Our roster is flawed at the 3rd (Murray position redundancy and no buy-in), 4th (Hunter street clothes), and 5th best player level (CC regression and does not fit Snyder scheme), not the 9th, 10th, 11th.  

[kg01]

I can't believe what I'm reading rn.  Meth-Bogi is turning over in his grave right now.  Smh 

[deester11]

13 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Please don't, because this is a wildly reductive way to look at bench depth with zero context to broader cap implications and roster construction, and the stat you're pulling out is massively flawed... using win shares, which is ultimately a team success statistic, particularly for end of bench guys -- which is why all the teams listed have better records than us...

Is it surprising that bench guys who share the court with well-constructed, winning, rosters have more win shares?  Our bench playing in Boston would have massive win shares as well -- that's not some revelation you've uncovered.  It's actually just a flawed way to use that statistic.  Our bench is not good but they are absolutely not the problem.  We have one of the best 6th men (Bogi) in the entire league and a solid backup center.  And a solid backup 3/4 (Bey).  

Talking about and focusing on the Matthews is missing an entire forest for two trees.  Our roster is flawed at the 3rd (Murray position redundancy and no buy-in), 4th (Hunter street clothes), and 5th best player level (CC regression and does not fit Snyder scheme), not the 9th, 10th, 11th.  

You really think the sole focus of venom is Garrison? He's not. We can all acknowledge the many deficiencies of each player if we so choose.  That said, the argument for me is Garrison would be better served in the 12th spot, not the 9th. Perhaps the circumstances dictate his minutes, but it is what it is.  I can go down the list.  But I stopped at him because...well...if he's getting more minutes, I don't think it's a good thing. That's my opinion.

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I can't believe what I'm reading rn.  Meth-Bogi is turning over in his grave right now.  Smh 

And that would be the best defense he ever played.

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Please don't, because this is a wildly reductive way to look at bench depth with zero context to broader cap implications and roster construction, and the stat you're pulling out is massively flawed... using win shares, which is ultimately a team success statistic, particularly for end of bench guys -- which is why all the teams listed have better records than us...

Is it surprising that bench guys who share the court with well-constructed, winning, rosters have more win shares?  Our bench playing in Boston would have massive win shares as well -- that's not some revelation you've uncovered.  It's actually just a flawed way to use that statistic.  Our bench is not good but they are absolutely not the problem.  We have one of the best 6th men (Bogi) in the entire league and a solid backup center.  And a solid backup 3/4 (Bey).  

Talking about and focusing on the Matthews is missing an entire forest for two trees.  Our roster is flawed at the 3rd (Murray position redundancy and no buy-in), 4th (Hunter street clothes), and 5th best player level (CC regression and does not fit Snyder scheme), not the 9th, 10th, 11th.  

Win shares is not a team statistic - you know better than this but let's play the game and assume it is.  Why do you think teams with fewer wins than us show the same pattern?  If you premise is correct, our 9-15 players should curb stomp those on a team like the Pistons since we have 3x the number of wins.  But no.

Detroit: 1.0 (3.3x)

Wizards: 0.7 (2.3x)

Hornets: 2.0 (6.8x)

Spurs: 0.7 (2.3x)

Portland: 1.3 (4.3x)

Memphis: 1.4 (4.7x)

You are ignoring the obvious if you think any team is well contructed has this little depth.  It is absolutely flawed and the 9-15 spots on the roster are a big flaw.  This does not negate the flaws elsewhere.  (I'll repeat this for good measure - we have flaws elsewhere that are more important in the big picture and the fact that our 9-15 guys are this useless to date this season is not a case that this is the only isse with the team.)  But I believe this team has the least productive 9-15 players in NBA history or close to it.  I have issued the challenge to find any team in NBA history that matches them for futility and I see you still are wanting to argue the point without putting up a single example of a team whose 9-15 slots you believe were less productive.  And our team should have a big edge for production in that territory of the bench because we have had several players miss extended time.

 

[terrell]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

Playing the silly game....Hunter plays some 2.

You could easily have lineups like the following with Simmons on the floor.

Bogi Hunter JJ Simmons, Bruno (if you want to go huge on folks)

Trae Bogi JJ Simmons OO (if you want to punish people wanting to trap Trap Trae

Trae Bogi Hunter JJ Simmons (if you want 5 possible ball handlers on the floor at the same time (the hands team)).

Simmons Trae Bogi OO Bruno (against big lineups)

 

The hard part to remember with Simmons is he was traditionally a point guard and can pass over the top of double teams. You have a lot of options with Simmons on the floor. Its not a terrible idea, I just think he can be had for less.

 

But yes, the idea of playing JJ next to Simmons, next to OO is very intriguing defensively.

lol Dre as a possible ball handler.....

 

[AHF]

Just now, terrell said:

lol Dre as a possible ball handler.....

 

In fairness, I don't think anyone sees him as a ball handler.  There are some 2's that don't do much ball handling.