Why so much Joe Johnson hate this year?

[thefloydian]

I just wish Joe wouldn't dribble so much. Crawford is a much better ball-handler.

[Plainview1981]

EXCEPT, we are 18th overall but thanks for playing again. Spin it all you want buddy, and I know you will, but we are not anywhere close to being the worst defensive team in the league while also happening to be a top 5 offense. What's your response going to be now? "I'd hate to watch how the other 26 teams score"?

. This team doesn't put the effort in to play defense every night. As for the offense, i'll buy it when it holds up over the some what long haul. It's early.

Oh yeah, there is the Golden State Warriors and a couple of other teams that are worse defensive. For what that's worth. It still doesn't change that this is mostly and awful defense.

[Jungle Jack]

Hello,

I really think where JJ ends up will depend on who offers him the biggest contract. Considering he came to us after we went 13-69 when he was part of the nucleus of an amazing Suns team, I really think he will follow the Dollar signs.

Thankfully, we are in a position to add a 6th year and the most money, but is he worth max money?

In the past, we had to overpay to get any FA to sign with us. Considering the talent and depth we have now, this should not be the case anymore. I also cannot blame FA's from wanting to be wined and dined by all interested parties. It has got to be one helluva ego boost to hear your name bellowed out at MSG and all of the other Arenas that will host him. I do think in the end, he will remain a Hawk.

I certainly do not have hate for JJ. He is certainly in a tough position balancing being in a contract year and having the best teammates since Phoenix. So far, Jamal Crawford has been awesome and has allowed us to have far better spacing. I am glad that he has another year remaining on his contract. Especially with the possibility of JJ going elsewhere.

This offseason really is going to be a defining one. With Woodson's contract being up along with JJ's, it really will be interesting to see what happens. Especially considering JJ has done nothing to fan down the flames of his possible departure with remarks about the Knicks and D'Antoni and the Heat and Wade. Really should be interesting offseason. There have even been reports of the possibility of LBJ coming here. Needless to say, there have been reports of him going everywhere, but we do have a solid nucleus and Atlanta is a very desirable location for players.

Cheers,

JJ

[Crank]

I'm sorry, but it's pretty clear that you either have not watched the Hawks much, don't remember how often Lue and Flip (and now Crawford) went one-on-one and ignored open teammates (and somehow managed to also miss JJ's time in Phoenix under D'Antoni, where he showed no problem playing in a ball movement-heavy system), and/or selectively ignore things that don't fit into your view of JJ and the Hawks offense.

Oh, and Crawford led the Knicks in scoring twice - in '05-'06 and '07-'08. To quote a friend of mine over on Sekou's blog - done with you, fool.

First off Lue and Flip are journeyman nba players who are fringe nba rotation players but they were all we had and you make do with what you have to try and compare them to Crawford is a joke... it really is . To ignore the difference in talent level and experience between the teams is also pretty silly as well. What games out of these first ten have Crawford been ignoring open teammates ? JJ left Phoneix because he didnt want to be the 3rd guy he wanted to be the man? talk about blatantly ignoring well established facts .

Crawford did not lead the knicks in 05-06 Stephon Marbury did 2005-2006 knick stats =0 and he only started 27 of the 79 games he played in as well so he was coming off the bench....well so much for being the main offensive weapon when you are coming off the bench ...

Maybe you should stop quoting people from Sekou's blog and spend a little bit more time getting your facts straight.

If JJ were to leave I stand by my statement that we wouldnt see iso joe anymore .Does that mean we would drop all isolation plays ? heck no but I think with Al and Smooves growth that we would post them, up more and run more pick and roll game with Crawford /Al+Smoove .

[Sothron]

I don't know what it is but I just have this feeling that Joe isn't going to resign and he's going to be either Lebron or Wade's sidekick somewhere else.

[Plainview1981]

I don't know what it is but I just have this feeling that Joe isn't going to resign and he's going to be either Lebron or Wade's sidekick somewhere else.

Even in a win he looks down on the bench.

[niremetal]

First off Lue and Flip are journeyman nba players who are fringe nba rotation players but they were all we had and you make do with what you have to try and compare them to Crawford is a joke... it really is . To ignore the difference in talent level and experience between the teams is also pretty silly as well. What games out of these first ten have Crawford been ignoring open teammates ? JJ left Phoneix because he didnt want to be the 3rd guy he wanted to be the man? talk about blatantly ignoring well established facts .

Crawford did not lead the knicks in 05-06 Stephon Marbury did 2005-2006 knick stats =0 and he only started 27 of the 79 games he played in as well so he was coming off the bench....well so much for being the main offensive weapon when you are coming off the bench ...

Maybe you should stop quoting people from Sekou's blog and spend a little bit more time getting your facts straight.

If JJ were to leave I stand by my statement that we wouldnt see iso joe anymore .Does that mean we would drop all isolation plays ? heck no but I think with Al and Smooves growth that we would post them, up more and run more pick and roll game with Crawford /Al+Smoove .

First off, there have been plenty of Sixth Men who have led their teams in scoring. Second:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NYK/2006.html

Jamal Crawford had 149 more points than anyone else on the team and 151 more than Marbury. You can't just ignore the fact that Marbury didn't even suit up for more than a quarter of the team's games. Nice try, though.

And NOW - done with you, fool.

Edited November 15, 2009 by niremetal

[hawkman]

Even in a win he looks down on the bench.

Look who's talking! :snowballfight:

[NineOhTheRino]

Even in a win he looks down on the bench.

That's Joe and that's why I like him. He can frustrate you at times but I love how he keeps it all in perceptive. Imagine if he had the personalty of us fans.

Edited November 17, 2009 by NineOhTheRino

[khaos7]

I'm a Joe supporter. I don't think the team can move forward without him (or a significant upgrade). That said, he's letting me down with his ill-timed comments. Horford is averaging a double double. Save the Lakers game, Josh has actually played like he has a mind. Bibby has sacrificed minutes and points for the team. Crawford has made strides to play within Woody's system and embraced the concept of the team. There are some positives. Yet, our leader has bad body language on the court and I'm almost convinced he'll whine in the media after every loss. I'm all for Joe maximizing his money making potential. However, if he wants to leave or he's unhappy, I pray Sund doesn't let Joe catch us with our pants down and makes a move before the deadline.

I said this back in November...if there was ANY sign that Joe was unhappy, we should explore trading him before the trade deadline. I wrote this because of his reaction after the Laker loss and the fact he turned down the contract extension before the season. Now my fears may be coming to pass. He could leave and we may not get anything in return. I felt then and I feel now; we should have explored the trade market for Joe. It made good business sense. 1) at that point the Hawks were in control 2) they didn't HAVE to trade him, but they could have explored what was out there in return for his contract and 3) Joe wasn't untouchable. I woudn't try exploring trades if this were Lebron or Wade (true cornerstones). However, this was JJ. I thought we should have initiated some conversations.

I know, some people didn't want to disturb the chemistry on the team. That said, it was worth checking to find out what was out there. The Hawks had leverage. Now we don't have that nor do we have cap space.

[99PROBL3MS]

He also turns the ball over way too much for an "ALL STAR".

This just isn't true. When it comes to turnovers by all-star guard/forwards, JJ is as good as it gets. One of the few things that makes him elite is that he doesn't turn the ball over.

Joe Johnson: 1.9 TO/gm

Dwyane Wade: 3.3 TO/gm Steve Nash: 3.6 TO/gm

Lebron James: 2.3 TO/gm Brandon Roy: 2.0 TO/gm

Kobe Bryant: 3.2 TO/gm Carmelo Anthony: 3.0 TO/gm

Derrick Rose: 2.8 TO/gm Deron Williams: 3.3 TO/gm

Gerald Wallace: 2.3 TO/gm Chris Paul: 2.5 TO/gm

Rajon Rondo: 3.0 TO/gm Kevin Durant: 3.3 TO/gm

He also played in 76gms and only had 66 ball handling turnovers, 69 bad passes, and 10 offensive fouls. No one else on that list is even close to those numbers.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Handcuffing the team?

The Hawks did that the minute they traded Speedy and Acie for Crawford, because both Speedy and Acie's contracts could've came off the books in 2010. They knew Jamal had 2 yrs @ 20 mill left on his deal, yet, they traded for him anyway. JJ didn't do that, SUND did.

JJ didn't sign Bibby to 3 yrs @ 18 mill . . or Zaza to 3yrs @ 15 mill . . or Marvin to 5yrs @ 37.5 mill . . SUND did.

JJ didn't sign 2 stiffs like Joe Smith and Collins, and dupe the fan base that theyse guys could help us . . SUND did.

Didn't we Hawks fans have all of this mapped out in 2008, in regards of the summer of 2009?

- re-sign Marvin

- let Bibby go

- let Zaza go

- trade Speedy, or let his deal expire in 2010

- let Acie take over for Bibby

But SUND changed all of that, when he traded for Crawford. And he definitely changed al of that when he brought back Bibby and Zaza. Remember, if we don't re-sign those 2, that's 19 MILLION OFF THE BOOKS. But SUND re-signed both of them. I'm not mad at him for doing so.

But in retrospect, we COULD'VE rolled with this squad this year:

STARTERS: Acie - JJ - Marvin - Smoove - Horford

BENCH: Teague - Flip - Evans - Solo - Zaza ( West - Morris - Speedy )

With that group, the big questionmark is at PG. Could an Acie - Teague combo be effective at PG? Then you'd see if Flip could give us the production he gave us in the 2nd half of the season. All I know, is that we'd keep 7 of the core 8 from last year's playoff squad intact. And financial-wise, we'd be in damn good shape to re-sign JJ ( no matter what people offered us )

But here's what I'm getting at Swat. We've known for years now that this day would come. We've known that we'd either have to pay JJ, trade him, or let him walk. And before SUND came onto the scene, we were definitely in position to lock up JJ without much resistance . . IF . he wanted to come back.

But when SUND locks up all of the pieces around JJ . . then comes at JJ with a 4yr @ 60 mill offer ( basically paying him the same thing he made in his previous contract ) . . you expect JJ just to take that offer, instead of seeing what he's worth on the open market?

The NBA is a business man. These teams don't care about players. So the players have to look out for themselves. So just because you in particular think all JJ is worth is 15 mill a year @ 60 mill, doesn't mean he should take it out of loyalty to the Hawks.

LOL . . look how they did Flip. And with the way Flip played last year, he definitely deserved a multi-year deal starting at least at 3 mill a year. But when the Hawks traded for Crawford, they basically gave Flip the finger.

So in JJ's case, he'd be stupid to take a 60 mill contract, when he and his agent could pretty much set the asking price next summer. A much HIGHER asking price. His agent could be like . .

"OK . you all know who my client is. He's the 2nd best SG in free agency and he's the 5th or 6th best free agent overall. We know that my client can't expect to command MAX money, but it is my job to get the best deal possible. So I want at least a 75 million contract to start out. We don't care how many years, but the total amount starts @ 75 million."

Then JJ's agent goes to SUND and says . . .

"You know JJ would rather stay in ATL to finish the job. Like I told the other GMs, the bidding starts at 75 million. You do have that 6th year option, so if you do give us a 6 yr deal, we want at least 75 mill in the first 5 years. Player option in year 5 .. team option in year 6."

That's how JJ's agent may play this. Don't look at it as JJ turning down 15 mill a year. Look at it as him turning down 60 million . . . when he may can secure an 80 - 100 million contract. Because once these teams start jockeying for position, JJ will get more than a 75 mill a year contract. Probably closer to 80 - 85 mill.

But as far as JJ "handcuffing the team", nah man. You better blame SUND for that one. Not JJ.

Crawford's 10 mill in 2010 - 11 is what is handcuffing the team, especially if Crawford's addition turns out to not make us better at the end of the year.

I've posted a lot of things in my "5 year career" on Hawksquawk. But this post has to be one of my 10 best of all time.

[ryandauwalker]

I've posted a lot of things in my "5 year career" on Hawksquawk. But this post has to be one of my 10 best of all time.

Northcyde, this is a very solid well-thought out argument. If I may do so, I would like to give Sund's rationale for giving him that contract.

Personally, I think the gamble is worth taking. I think there is no way that Joe would have resigned before free agency, regardless of how sweet of an offer we gave him.

A 4 year deal is the best thing for the hawks at 27 as we would right him out until 32 (1 year remaining on the old contract). Either way, I look at the offer is more of a PR stunt and a nice gift if it came through.

To throw out feelers to trade away your number #1 guy in the middle of a productive season is ridiculous. The potential ramifications of that are devastating.

I think Sund left free agency come about because he knows that Joe wants that 6th year (as he should and as Arn Tellem will demand) and that in a worse-case scenario, we will get something good back from a S&T.

If he was going to leave and take less money elsewhere, there was no way we could have signed him to a contract before he hit free-agency. Considering his age, his position, and this being his last contract, I believe that it was smart to wait until free agency and deal with the potential consequences of him taking less elsewhere. This is because the possibility is much more slim than people are making it out to be.

Therefore, I believe Sund played this correctly. We cannot put together all of the pieces of our team together (in 2008) based on opening up an option a year later to sign a 28 year old SG who is very good, but not elite.

[Buzzard]

I've posted a lot of things in my "5 year career" on Hawksquawk. But this post has to be one of my 10 best of all time.

Crawford's 10 mill in 2010 - 11 is what is handcuffing the team, especially if Crawford's addition turns out to not make us better at the end of the year.

But this is where it ends. Craw did make us better and he won 6th man of the year. Take Craw away from us and we have a severely diminishing Bibby, a unproven rookie, and a underachiving and underused Marvin. No way we finish 3rd in the east and, had we of faced the Bucks or anyone of that caliber without Craw, we would have lost in the 1st round.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Northcyde, this is a very solid well-thought out argument. If I may do so, I would like to give Sund's rationale for giving him that contract.

Personally, I think the gamble is worth taking. I think there is no way that Joe would have resigned before free agency, regardless of how sweet of an offer we gave him.

A 4 year deal is the best thing for the hawks at 27 as we would right him out until 32 (1 year remaining on the old contract). Either way, I look at the offer is more of a PR stunt and a nice gift if it came through.

To throw out feelers to trade away your number #1 guy in the middle of a productive season is ridiculous. The potential ramifications of that are devastating.

I think Sund left free agency come about because he knows that Joe wants that 6th year (as he should and as Arn Tellem will demand) and that in a worse-case scenario, we will get something good back from a S&T.

If he was going to leave and take less money elsewhere, there was no way we could have signed him to a contract before he hit free-agency. Considering his age, his position, and this being his last contract, I believe that it was smart to wait until free agency and deal with the potential consequences of him taking less elsewhere. This is because the possibility is much more slim than people are making it out to be.

Therefore, I believe Sund played this correctly. We cannot put together all of the pieces of our team together (in 2008) based on opening up an option a year later to sign a 28 year old SG who is very good, but not elite.

I can't disagree with this. This is a good explanation as to why Sund threw that contract out there.

But by him doing that, he had to have known that JJ wouldn't dare sign a deal like that. That's why I like that you called it a "PR stunt". It turned out to be a PR stunt that instantly turned JJ into the villian, because some of the fans were like . "JJ . . how DARE YOU turn down 15 million a year. Who do you think you are?"

When the Crawford trade went down, I always thought ( and still do to a certain extent ) that Jamal was the replacement for JJ. He was the "In case of a JJ emergency, break open glass" player for us. And with Crawford performing like he did during the season, he's arguably a more popular player in ATL than Joe Johnson.

With the way the playoffs went, with JJ playing horrible in the final 7 games, and the booing, and his comments that pizzed the fans off even more . . it's set up the perfect storm for JJ to get out of here.

NOW . . the situation is almost as if the fans will be pizzed if JJ gets anywhere over 100 million. And a vocal percentage of fans don't want him back AT ALL. And now, you apparantely have all of these teams scrambling to put together deals to get JJ.

So if the ASG was looking for an "out" to let JJ go, they definitely have it now.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

But this is where it ends. Craw did make us better and he won 6th man of the year. Take Craw away from us and we have a severely diminishing Bibby, a unproven rookie, and a underachiving and underused Marvin. No way we finish 3rd in the east and, had we of faced the Bucks or anyone of that caliber without Craw, we would have lost in the 1st round.

Nope.

That's why I used the word "IF". Go back and re-read what I typed.

I have very little problem with Jamal Crawford and what he did for us last season. He definitely played what he was worth last year.

That still doesn't change the fact that when it comes to the balance sheet, it's Crawford's contract ( more importantly Bibby's and Chill's contract ) that has us in a bind, because we never had to trade for him or re-sign Bibby, and add this money to the books. And with the way Marvin played last year, you have to add him to that list as well.

Sund had to have known what the potential market for JJ would look like, even last summer. With all of the expiring contracts we had last year, along with the potential expirings we'd have this year, Sund could've put us in a real good position financially to make a run at one of these free agents, if that was the goal of the Hawks.

If not, re-signing JJ at whatever price wouldn't have been a problem.

But he chose to keep the entire team intact ( which wasn't a bad decision by any means ), and that team posted the 4th best record in Atlanta Hawk history. We flopped in the 2nd round of the playoffs, but this team for the most part, did some good things.

BUT NOW . . . As James Brown once said in a song . . . it's time to "pay the cost to be the boss".

Everybody around JJ got locked up with a new deal, so now it's time to lock him up. Sund had to have known how much it would cost to retain JJ. So if the intention was to lock him into a big money deal, the proper steps LAST SUMMER should've been made.

But if the Crawford trade was meant to be the deal that replaced JJ in ATl, then we've already made our free agent move, and they'll let JJ walk for nothing ( but put up the illusion that they tried their best to retain him ).

The way other teams have high payrolls, is by them either trading for star players, or retaining their own star players by giving them big contracts.

[ryandauwalker]

I can't disagree with this. This is a good explanation as to why Sund threw that contract out there.

But by him doing that, he had to have known that JJ wouldn't dare sign a deal like that. That's why I like that you called it a "PR stunt". It turned out to be a PR stunt that instantly turned JJ into the villian, because some of the fans were like . "JJ . . how DARE YOU turn down 15 million a year. Who do you think you are?"

When the Crawford trade went down, I always thought ( and still do to a certain extent ) that Jamal was the replacement for JJ. He was the "In case of a JJ emergency, break open glass" player for us. And with Crawford performing like he did during the season, he's arguably a more popular player in ATL than Joe Johnson.

With the way the playoffs went, with JJ playing horrible in the final 7 games, and the booing, and his comments that pizzed the fans off even more . . it's set up the perfect storm for JJ to get out of here.

NOW . . the situation is almost as if the fans will be pizzed if JJ gets anywhere over 100 million. And a vocal percentage of fans don't want him back AT ALL. And now, you apparantely have all of these teams scrambling to put together deals to get JJ.

So if the ASG was looking for an "out" to let JJ go, they definitely have it now.

I agree with everything you said here, but i do not think that Sund was trying to have an out for JJ leaving. I definitely think that Jamal Crawford was a sixth man who would be insurance if JJ leaves. Nevertheless, I think the desire of the Hawks organization is for JJ to stay a Hawk.

Just because we did not lock him down a year before free agency (I believe he wouldn't take any offer, so we low-balled him to gain support from the fanbase), it does not mean that the organization does not want JJ. I think they know the JJ will have to come to the Hawks and work a S&T so either way, the Hawks will be fine.

Any discussion of him taking less money elsewhere is overblown in my view. If he did miraculously (and stupidly) did bolt to another team without that 6th year, it would be through Joe demanding it from Arn Tellem (who would be pissed) and I do not think anything the Hawks have done could change his insistence on this. Nevertheless, I do not think that will happen.

[benhillboy]

We're still talking about Joe (sigh). I'm counting down the days until S & T.

I'm much more concerned about how and if Drew will help Teague being a former PG along with maintaining our defensive ideals at least up front, if Josh will return with any semblance of a jumper and efficient free throw stroke, if Al can develop a couple more pet moves on the block, and if Jamal can have a repeat performance of last year. You know, the guys actually committed to the team.

Edited June 29, 2010 by benhillboy