Kyrie to Boston . . Thomas to Cleveland . . oh boy

[KB21]

49 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

The main reason Boston made this trade is because they didn't want to pay IT max money, and I don't blame them.

Why would they want to pay Kyrie Irving max money then?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 hours ago, KB21 said:

The fact that fans believe Kyrie is a superstar player shows how much fans still overvalue volume scoring.  Yeah, Kyrie is a volume shot creator, but he does nothing else on the floor at an above average level.  He's a below average passer for a point guard.  He's a below average defender.  You aren't going to see him setting screens or creating many opportunities for his teammates to score.  He's a volume shooter.  That's it.  

The same thing applies to Isaiah Thomas a swell.  He's also a volume shooter/scorer that isn't above average with anything else.

The prize of this trade is Jae Crowder, who is the better player of the ones who were traded.  Jae was 20th in the NBA in RPM in 2016-2017 and has rated highly in each year since his Dallas days, so this isn't a fluke.  He's a team oriented player who can defend two positions at a high level.  He's a shot maker from 2 point, 3 point, and the free throw line.  He will set screens.  He will keep the ball moving on offense.  He is the type of player that helps teams win games.  Boston is foolish for dealing him, and a straight up swap of Crowder for Irving will cost Boston at least 2-3 wins on the year.  

 

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/17/2/fga/7-1

So there were 7 PGs that took more than 18 shots per game in the regular season last year.  James Harden, who should've been on this list as a PG, makes 8.

- Westbrook ( 24 FGA ) - Lillard ( 20 ) - Irving ( 20 ) - Thomas ( 19 ) - Harden ( 19 ) - Walker ( 18 ) - Wall ( 18 ) - Curry ( 18 )

- All 8 made the playoffs

- Kyrie and Curry met in the Finals . . Wall played in the ECF.  

- Only Tony Parker ( a low volume shooter, low assist PG ), broke the mold here, mainly because he plays alongside a top 5 player in the NBA and maybe the best all-around player.

- Kyrie shot 47% FG and 40% from 3 point range last season.  Kyrie is also a 90+% free throw shooter.

 

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/17/2/ast/7-1

Conversely, there were only 7 PGs that averaged 7 or more assists last season.  Add James Harden, and that makes 8.

- Harden ( 11 asst ) - Wall ( 10 ) - Westbrook ( 10 ) - Paul ( 9 ) - Rubio ( 9 ) - Teague ( 8 ) - Holliday ( 7 ) - Lowry ( 7 )

- 6 of the 8 made the playoffs

- Only Wall made it to a Conference Finals

 

When I see how knowledgeable NBA fans like yourself view Kyrie, but undervalue the impact of elite and clutch scoring in the NBA, I see why Kyrie wanted to leave Lebron and get out from under his shadow.  It's the only way he's going to get his proper respect as a superstar caliber player.

Role players like Crowder are nothing, if they're not playing alongside an elite alpha dog scorer ( i.e. - volume scorer ).  If you don't have that alpha dog, it's hard to win.  The Hawks did it for 2 months, but even they suffered because they didn't have that alpha dog, and broke up the entire team because of it.

If we get the "Playoff Dennis" version of Schröder next season ( 24 ppg - 8 asst - 46% FG - 42% 3FG ) . . on 18 FGA . . the Hawks will be much better off as a team.  But make no mistake, there is little difference between 24 ppg - 8 asst . . . and 29 ppg - 6 asst.  From a points created standpoint, the impact from both stat lines will be about 45 ppg.  

Points created at the PG/playmaker spot is a huge indicator on who has a true impact on a game.     The reason why a guy like Ricky Rubio can't hold a candle to Kyrie, despite being a better playmaker and defender, is because he can't score at a volume level, or score efficiently.

Mr. Irving can do both things at a high level, which is why he's going to be a future Hall of Famer.

[DS5]

17 hours ago, KB21 said:

Unless he gets A LOT better defensively, he's nowhere near John Wall.

Are you talking about Curry, the 2-time MVP? Or Westbrook, the reigning MVP? I'm assuming you're talking about Curry since people like to point out how bad he is defensively. He can impact the game more than anyone not named Lebron. 

[capstone21]

He is an undersized shooting guard ... there is no doubt in his scoring ability but he is a poor defender and playmaker ...he is a shooting guard

[benhillboy]

14 hours ago, terrell said:

lol. Kyrie has had concussions, a fractured jaw, sprained shoulders , a broken finger, a broken hand, tendonitis in his knees, right toe injuries, foot injuries, a nasal fracture, etc.............................

Can't forget when he thought he was about to die from bed bugs.

Kyrie is an interesting/difficult player to try to evaluate.  The basic building blocks of playing ball is dribble, pass, and shoot.  I look past whatever numbers he has and just marvel at the kid's handle.  Better than any I've seen: Isaiah, Curry, Kidd, Nash, Stockton, Strickland, all of em.  Winning the three point contest out of nowhere cemented the respect of his jumper. 

I usually discount players for not being well-rounded or plus defenders but his isolation scoring ability at his size is enormous.  He's one of the premier spirit-breakers when he gets it going.  Dude dropped fiddy on the Duncan Spurs and they needed every point to win.  Who does that?

His intangibles will come into question a few times this season though I'm sure.  He isn't a candidate for playing a team game especially when they're trailing.  A couple sideline dust-ups with Smart and Stephens and Irving will be completely in the wrong.  Hayward is good enough to take the reigns of that team but lacks the personality to do so.  I'm also interested to see how he meshes with Al: outstanding passer, he'll probably have more assists to Kyrie than vice versa but also super-passive.

Edited August 24, 2017 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

The narrative that Curry is a bad defender has to stop.  Your team doesn't  stay in the top of defensive efficiency with a bum out front.  2 defensive win shares behind CP3 since he came in the league, led the league in steals before (with a much more on-ball style than Iverson or Nash) grabbed more rebounds than Tristan F&@kin Thompson in the Finals.  Dude was a unanimous MVP and never got credit for being a good defender of a hard-noses player who sets more scoring screens than a lot of Bigs.  The s@&t upset me a little.

Edited August 24, 2017 by benhillboy

[AHF]

39 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

The narrative that Curry is a bad defender has to stop.  Your team doesn't  stay in the top of defensive efficiency with a bum out front.  2 defensive win shares behind CP3 since he came in the league, led the league in steals before (with a much more on-ball style than Iverson or Nash) grabbed more rebounds than Tristan F&@kin Thompson in the Finals.  Dude was a unanimous MVP and never got credit for being a good defender of a hard-noses player who sets more scoring screens than a lot of Bigs.  The s@&t upset me a little.

I think the post on defense needed to catch Wall was referring to Irving not Curry.  The original post said that Irving would be battling with Wall for best PG in a few years.  The responding post said that he (Irving not Curry) would have to improve his defense to reach that level.  It was not a shot at Curry's defense.

[DS5]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I think the post on defense needed to catch Wall was referring to Irving not Curry.  The original post said that Irving would be battling with Wall for best PG in a few years.  The responding post said that he (Irving not Curry) would have to improve his defense to reach that level.  It was not a shot at Curry's defense.

He was responding to my post where I said that "Curry and Westbrook disagree (with the fact that Irving will be battling with Wall for best PG)."

[AHF]

21 minutes ago, DS5 said:

He was responding to my post where I said that "Curry and Westbrook disagree (with the fact that Irving will be battling with Wall for best PG)."

He did but he wasn't talking about Curry or Westbrook.  He was talking about Irving.

Curry is so far above Irving and Wall that it isn't a conversation.  He wasn't disagreeing with you he was saying that even if you ignore those guys that Irving would have to really improve his defense a lot to be on the same tier as Wall.

[KB21]

5 hours ago, DS5 said:

Are you talking about Curry, the 2-time MVP? Or Westbrook, the reigning MVP? I'm assuming you're talking about Curry since people like to point out how bad he is defensively. He can impact the game more than anyone not named Lebron. 

I'm talking about Kyrie.

[KB21]

15 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/17/2/fga/7-1

So there were 7 PGs that took more than 18 shots per game in the regular season last year.  James Harden, who should've been on this list as a PG, makes 8.

- Westbrook ( 24 FGA ) - Lillard ( 20 ) - Irving ( 20 ) - Thomas ( 19 ) - Harden ( 19 ) - Walker ( 18 ) - Wall ( 18 ) - Curry ( 18 )

- All 8 made the playoffs

- Kyrie and Curry met in the Finals . . Wall played in the ECF.  

- Only Tony Parker ( a low volume shooter, low assist PG ), broke the mold here, mainly because he plays alongside a top 5 player in the NBA and maybe the best all-around player.

- Kyrie shot 47% FG and 40% from 3 point range last season.  Kyrie is also a 90+% free throw shooter.

 

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fantasy/nba/playerstats/17/2/ast/7-1

Conversely, there were only 7 PGs that averaged 7 or more assists last season.  Add James Harden, and that makes 8.

- Harden ( 11 asst ) - Wall ( 10 ) - Westbrook ( 10 ) - Paul ( 9 ) - Rubio ( 9 ) - Teague ( 8 ) - Holliday ( 7 ) - Lowry ( 7 )

- 6 of the 8 made the playoffs

- Only Wall made it to a Conference Finals

 

When I see how knowledgeable NBA fans like yourself view Kyrie, but undervalue the impact of elite and clutch scoring in the NBA, I see why Kyrie wanted to leave Lebron and get out from under his shadow.  It's the only way he's going to get his proper respect as a superstar caliber player.

Role players like Crowder are nothing, if they're not playing alongside an elite alpha dog scorer ( i.e. - volume scorer ).  If you don't have that alpha dog, it's hard to win.  The Hawks did it for 2 months, but even they suffered because they didn't have that alpha dog, and broke up the entire team because of it.

If we get the "Playoff Dennis" version of Schröder next season ( 24 ppg - 8 asst - 46% FG - 42% 3FG ) . . on 18 FGA . . the Hawks will be much better off as a team.  But make no mistake, there is little difference between 24 ppg - 8 asst . . . and 29 ppg - 6 asst.  From a points created standpoint, the impact from both stat lines will be about 45 ppg.  

Points created at the PG/playmaker spot is a huge indicator on who has a true impact on a game.     The reason why a guy like Ricky Rubio can't hold a candle to Kyrie, despite being a better playmaker and defender, is because he can't score at a volume level, or score efficiently.

Mr. Irving can do both things at a high level, which is why he's going to be a future Hall of Famer.

A true superstar is a player who does more than just score.  A true superstar player is a two way player.  A true superstar does things to make his teammates better.  Kyrie does neither, IMO.

This idea that being a great one on one scorer makes you a superstar is off, because that would mean that Andrew Wiggins is also a superstar.  We all know that this is not the case, as Andrew may be the single worst defensive player in the NBA.  

[AHF]

51 minutes ago, KB21 said:

A true superstar is a player who does more than just score.  A true superstar player is a two way player.  A true superstar does things to make his teammates better.  Kyrie does neither, IMO.

This idea that being a great one on one scorer makes you a superstar is off, because that would mean that Andrew Wiggins is also a superstar.  We all know that this is not the case, as Andrew may be the single worst defensive player in the NBA.  

Wiggins isn't a particularly efficient scorer which I would contend makes a huge difference for value.

[DBac]

My perspective on point guard defense has changed since I took some time to look around. It's pretty overrated, none of the top guys can guard each other. The other defenders matter much more. League is pretty offensively weak at SG too, so many PGs can hide there.

[AHF]

31 minutes ago, DBac said:

My perspective on point guard defense has changed since I took some time to look around. It's pretty overrated, none of the top guys can guard each other. The other defenders matter much more. League is pretty offensively weak at SG too, so many PGs can hide there.

Don't know that it is overrated but getting rid of the handchecking rules meant that it became so much easier to succeed as a smaller player.  Game has been shifting from the frontcourt to the backcourt ever since.  When the fastest players on the floor can't be handchecked and can initiate contact against the defender and get the foul, it is going to basically be impossible to completely stop any elite point.

[DBac]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Don't know that it is overrated but getting rid of the handchecking rules meant that it became so much easier to succeed as a smaller player.  Game has been shifting from the frontcourt to the backcourt ever since.  When the fastest players on the floor can't be handchecked and can initiate contact against the defender and get the foul, it is going to basically be impossible to completely stop any elite point.

Recent final teams have featured guys like Russ, Steph, Kyrie, and Tony Parker. None of em are known for their defensive ability, but they all had a pretty good defender next to them (stretching it there with JR Smith). CP3 is one of the best PG defenders in the game, but the top guys can still get theirs against him in the playoffs. There was a good article about that recently. Hell Wall is supposed to be pretty decent on defense and Dennis set himself up for a breakout campaign against him. But Dennis couldn't stop Wall either.

 

But yeah I see what you mean, Isaiah Thomas is the poster boy for that. Quick and draws fouls at a crazy rate. Kyle Lowry too.

[MaceCase]

A top point isn't going to stop another top point, issue of bad defense comes when a point just ushers his man into the paint breaking down team defense, gets easily forced into mismatches and even when hidden against the opposing team's weakest offensive option that player all of a sudden becomes an additional threat. 

[Diesel]

I have been reading a lot about Kyrie here in this thread.  Let's get this understanding.

Kyrie is a 25 year old 2 time allstar who is an offensive juggernaut.  People are trying to say that there's an equality with him an Isiah Thomas.  I disagree.  IT is older.  IT is injured now and because he elected to not have surgery, we don't know how bad his injury is.  IT is undersized.   All of those are valid reasons for my disagreement but let's go further. 

• IT is a high usage player who will struggle playing beside Lebron. 
• IT has had problems fitting into systems before.  Some suggest that his Napoleon complex is part of the reason why Ainge was eager to trade him here. 
• IT is looking for a big payday after this season. 

I'm trying to imagine how a guy playing next to Lebron is going to have a "back the brinks truck" season?  I think Cleveland just traded themselves into a headache.  I mean... Thomas was traded from Phoenix because he wanted a bigger role.  He became an issue in Phoenix because he didn't like being the second fiddle.  Well, in his contract year, how do you perceive him playing beside Lebron.  It's going to be interesting.  You have 2 ball dominant players and you have two guys playing for their next contract and you have 2 guys who are used to being "the man"....  

I will be surprised if Cleveland comes out of the East. 

 

[MaceCase]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

I have been reading a lot about Kyrie here in this thread.  Let's get this understanding.

Kyrie is a 25 year old 2 time allstar who is an offensive juggernaut.  People are trying to say that there's an equality with him an Isiah Thomas.  I disagree.  IT is older.  IT is injured now and because he elected to not have surgery, we don't know how bad his injury is.  IT is undersized.   All of those are valid reasons for my disagreement but let's go further. 

• IT is a high usage player who will struggle playing beside Lebron. 
• IT has had problems fitting into systems before.  Some suggest that his Napoleon complex is part of the reason why Ainge was eager to trade him here. 
• IT is looking for a big payday after this season. 

I'm trying to imagine how a guy playing next to Lebron is going to have a "back the brinks truck" season?  I think Cleveland just traded themselves into a headache.  I mean... Thomas was traded from Phoenix because he wanted a bigger role.  He became an issue in Phoenix because he didn't like being the second fiddle.  Well, in his contract year, how do you perceive him playing beside Lebron.  It's going to be interesting.  You have 2 ball dominant players and you have two guys playing for their next contract and you have 2 guys who are used to being "the man"....  

I will be surprised if Cleveland comes out of the East. 

 

• IT is a 28 year old 2 time All Star and All League 2nd teamer offensive juggernaut
• Having the option to have surgery or not would suggest a lesser severity of injury
• Kyrie Irving is an equally high usage player that saw his most productive seasons next to LeBron
• IT played in the ultimate system over the past 3 1/2 seasons under Brad Stevens
• Kyrie is looking for a big payday after next season
• IT SIGNED in Phoenix, Phoenix then proceeded to re-sign Eric Bledsoe pissing off both Thomas and Dragic whom was also traded because no team can support having 3 starting PGs.

I don't know where this narrative is coming from that Kyrie is some off ball role player that had to pick his spots in Cleveland, he's a ball dominant guard that benefited greatly from LeBron eliminating all of his responsibilities allowing him to shoot the ball with impunity every single time down the floor.  Every opportunity that Kyrie has gotten thus far in his career where he had the greater responsibility of being the primary focus, running a team or making his teammates better he's failed miserably.  IT has spent his last two summers trying to recruit other stars, even a super star in Durant, to come play with him and lessen his burden while Kyrie was seething over playing with the best player in the league no matter the success it garnered.  I really don't see how IT is being portrayed as the me-first player in this scenario.

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, MaceCase said:

• IT is a 28 year old 2 time All Star and All League 2nd teamer offensive juggernaut.

meh

• Having the option to have surgery or not would suggest a lesser severity of injury.

Brad Stevens had said that we don't know if he could start this season...a day before the trade.  Ainge said that the injury was a consideration. 

• Kyrie Irving is an equally high usage player that saw his most productive seasons next to LeBron

Why do you think he's leaving?  or Asked to Leave?

• IT played in the ultimate system over the past 3 1/2 seasons under Brad Stevens

True.  But noticed, the 4th quarter was reserved for him. 

 

• Kyrie is looking for a big payday after next season

Yeah.  What a time to play Second or Third Fiddle. 

• IT SIGNED in Phoenix, Phoenix then proceeded to re-sign Eric Bledsoe pissing off both Thomas and Dragic whom was also traded because no team can support having 3 starting PGs.

I don't know where this narrative is coming from that Kyrie is some off ball role player that had to pick his spots in Cleveland, he's a ball dominant guard that benefited greatly from LeBron eliminating all of his responsibilities allowing him to shoot the ball with impunity every single time down the floor.  

No.. It doesn't work that way.  Ball dominant players like to have the Ball.   Lebron is a ball dominant player.  He wants the ball in his hands at all times.   When he played with Wade, Wade deferred.   When he played with Kyrie.. Kyrie deferred.  Imagine your statement in reverse... Would Lebron let IT dominant the ball and he go and wait on his shot??

 

[sturt]

CLE mulling nixing the trade per reports tonight over concerns with IT's hip.