NBASupes Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 53 minutes ago, txsting said: Weren't you the guy proclaiming Cam as a future hall of famer before the season? warbyparker.com Future HOF? I barely spoke beyond his rookie year for the most part Stevie Wonder. I had extremely high expectations for his rookie season and did not live up to them and I knew instantly in the preseason that he wouldn't. The most I've ever said about the future with Reddish is he can be the best player on this team one day and he could be the best player in the league one day. I still stand by those statements. Edited January 9, 2020 by NBASupes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecampster Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 6 hours ago, txsting said: The eye test doesn't pass for me. He doesn't look good on defense to me, except for the effort is good. The results are no good. He gives up 64% DFG, which is, well, it isn't good. NBA real defensive plus/minus, he ranks 52 out of 75 small forwards. I think the perception of Cam as a good defender is a blend of 1) homer bias and 2) he was so bad on offense that he didn't look like a complete bum on the other end of the court, so that's good right??? Right? If I can talk speak for Mac...I think he was alluding to his on ball defense. For a rookie, he is way ahead of the curve. Now unfortunately in the NBA, on ball defense is about 25% of the defensive game. Rotations, calling things out, recognition, switching, funneling, help are all parts of the team defense world. I would be lying if I told you he was a good NBA defender today. I brought this up months ago. The game is 100% different than in college and the bigger a player is, the harder adapting is. For big men, its a mess as they adapt to no zone play and have to keep stepping out of the lane and timing it. Every big man rookie gets caught stepping out of the lane right before the cut pretty much every game. If you see Len (not a rookie) play, his number 1 biggest deficiency on defense is the foot speed to cover the lane. If he steps out, he just isn't quick enough to get back. Every game you see Len late to give help on a driving guard. Watch, you'll see it. Back to Cam, he's adjusting. Occasionally you see Cam bring the help and catch up on the rotations. He isn't consistent yet, but 50% of rookies are downright terrible at it so that he's doing it at all is very promising. For a rookie, he's very good on ball, above average rotating and recognition. For a vet he's average and below average respectively. But the progression is already there and he'll get better year to year. Right now though, I want the shooting mechanics to keep improving. Every made shot is one less wrong rebound leading to a transition basket. The wide moving elbows when he squares up and the varying release points make me cringe. Literally makes me cringe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBASupes Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 23 minutes ago, txsting said: I tried to find some evidence that Cam shot the ball great in high school. And at his PA high school, the limited stats available (5 games worth) show that he hit 58% of his threes. They didn't have shooting stats for all his games though which was weird. However that's a strong data point. The shooting has to be in there somewhere! 2017 Nike EYBL (summer circuit, high end prospects), less good. He was lauded for his scoring in this league (22.6). He got to the stripe a ton. Wasn't real efficient (40% FG and 28.6% 3FG). Is what it is y'all. 22 Cameron Reddish 22.6 106 263 .403 107 141 .759 36 126 .286 https://www.fiba.basketball/world/u19/2017/player/Cameron-Elijah-Reddish He shot 54.2% from three for U19. He was the star with P.J. Washington. Off the bench was Kevin Huerter and Trae didn't even make the team. He also shot 58% from three as a senior in High School. His rebounding in EYBL was 7.8 a game. His FT attempts were 8.8 a game. Like I keep saying to guys like you. He already can get to any spot he wants, it's all about developing craft like Lou Williams had to do as well. It took some time but he did. Cam will be a bucket in this league, just watch. I get you don't really understand this shit but it's okay though, you will soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post thecampster Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 For the purposes of explaining what I mean about Cam's mechanics I'll use this video. I haven't even previewed it and I bet I can pull out what I need. Okay wow that was easy. First shot at 12 to 15 seconds...his elbows don't look bad here, he's even but they are a bit flayed out, the ball is to the right of his right eye, not in front of him and he releases the ball after reaching the apex of his jump as opposed to during the explosion, meaning he has to generate both the force and aim from his wrists and elbows which are already outside his body. Second shot to look at is at 20-22 second mark. Here the left elbow is slightly elevated, the left hand is high on the ball as he's cheating to get it mid body. This is all caused due to bringing his hands up late in the jump again. the ball is moves from just left of his bellybutton to right of his head on the way up as he shoots with his eyes, not mechanics. Its a flaw where he doesn't trust the body and release. Again, he shoots after the explosion is gone and he's hanging. 41 through 44 second mark he leads with his right foot on the jumper because his body isn't square to start. The ball goes in after a friendly bounce but the shot was very off and pushed as he rushed to beat the defender. Because the defender was on him he rushes it and pushes it because of bad habits bringing the ball up late so he pushes, not shoots...its a completely different release and he's lucky it goes in. 50 through 54...this one isn't too bad except he hangs in the air again. Here it helps him but its a sign of a very bad habit. But the body is at least square and the ball is brought straight up. 1:13 to 1:17...wow is he turned and leading with the right side of his body. But he releases through the explosion and despite not coming up square, he's shooting with his legs not hands and its the best shot so far. 1 minute 17 seconds of highlights and 5 different releases, feet placements and approaches. This is what he needs to fix first. It is already more consistent than in college but needs much work. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecampster Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, NBASupes said: https://www.fiba.basketball/world/u19/2017/player/Cameron-Elijah-Reddish He shot 54.2% from three for U19. He was the star with P.J. Washington. Off the bench was Kevin Huerter and Trae didn't even make the team. He also shot 58% from three as a senior in High School. His rebounding in EYBL was 7.8 a game. His FT attempts were 8.8 a game. Like I keep saying to guys like you. He already can get to any spot he wants, it's all about developing craft like Lou Williams had to do as well. It took some time but he did. Cam will be a bucket in this league, just watch. I get you don't really understand this shit but it's okay though, you will soon I'm betting the longer arms post HS, the growing threw off his mechanics. If he "had" them, getting them back is much easier. 6 minutes ago, NBASupes said: https://www.fiba.basketball/world/u19/2017/player/Cameron-Elijah-Reddish He shot 54.2% from three for U19. He was the star with P.J. Washington. Off the bench was Kevin Huerter and Trae didn't even make the team. He also shot 58% from three as a senior in High School. His rebounding in EYBL was 7.8 a game. His FT attempts were 8.8 a game. Like I keep saying to guys like you. He already can get to any spot he wants, it's all about developing craft like Lou Williams had to do as well. It took some time but he did. Cam will be a bucket in this league, just watch. I get you don't really understand this shit but it's okay though, you will soon I'm betting the longer arms post HS, the growing threw off his mechanics. If he "had" them, getting them back is much easier. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBASupes Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, thecampster said: If I can talk speak for Mac...I think he was alluding to his on ball defense. For a rookie, he is way ahead of the curve. Now unfortunately in the NBA, on ball defense is about 25% of the defensive game. Rotations, calling things out, recognition, switching, funneling, help are all parts of the team defense world. I would be lying if I told you he was a good NBA defender today. I brought this up months ago. The game is 100% different than in college and the bigger a player is, the harder adapting is. For big men, its a mess as they adapt to no zone play and have to keep stepping out of the lane and timing it. Every big man rookie gets caught stepping out of the lane right before the cut pretty much every game. If you see Len (not a rookie) play, his number 1 biggest deficiency on defense is the foot speed to cover the lane. If he steps out, he just isn't quick enough to get back. Every game you see Len late to give help on a driving guard. Watch, you'll see it. Back to Cam, he's adjusting. Occasionally you see Cam bring the help and catch up on the rotations. He isn't consistent yet, but 50% of rookies are downright terrible at it so that he's doing it at all is very promising. For a rookie, he's very good on ball, above average rotating and recognition. For a vet he's average and below average respectively. But the progression is already there and he'll get better year to year. Right now though, I want the shooting mechanics to keep improving. Every made shot is one less wrong rebound leading to a transition basket. The wide moving elbows when he squares up and the varying release points make me cringe. Literally makes me cringe. I disagree with the for a vet take. Cam is very good for ANYONE in terms of man defense. Cam is by far our best at rotations and is good for ANYONE in term of that. Cam is just decent for switching. Cam is still learning how to funneling but we don't help with our supporting cast. Recognizing is probably the most important it's the weakest area for Reddish but still good for a rookie. Below average for a vet. Bembry is our star here. VC is our best at calling things out defensively. No one else is really worth a shit at it. Sometimes Trae is. Watching it in person, you see why we are so bad on defense. Help defense in general, Cam is pretty good for anyone. He's a good defender for anyone. A rotational defender. A defensive starter. Not a star or superstar yet on that end but it's coming. He's the same tier as Lonzo Ball as a rookie and that's a good thing. Ahead in many areas over Ball in many areas but Ball's recognition is generational, even as a rookie. I am like LP. I think Cam is a legit good defender RIGHT NOW. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post AHF Posted January 9, 2020 Moderators Popular Post Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, txsting said: Yeah, they aren't great, but honestly if they are so all over the map, you'd think you could find just one that says Cam can play D. Anyway, your eyes can tell you he's ok at best on defense. On the WAR page that Supes referenced they have defensive RAPTOR numbers and he is #1 among all lottery picks playing at least 100 minutes in that defensive rating. According to DBPM, comparing to the top 10 picks in the draft other than Cam there are only 2 who rank as high or better than him on defense: Culver and Hayes. He is #3 among those players from the top of the 2019 draft in DBPM. Those are two metrics for you. Take those for what they are worth but there are numbers saying he is having a fine rookie season on the defensive side of the ball. It is on offense where he looks abysmal with his shooting. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NBASupes Posted January 9, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, thecampster said: For the purposes of explaining what I mean about Cam's mechanics I'll use this video. I haven't even previewed it and I bet I can pull out what I need. Okay wow that was easy. First shot at 12 to 15 seconds...his elbows don't look bad here, he's even but they are a bit flayed out, the ball is to the right of his right eye, not in front of him and he releases the ball after reaching the apex of his jump as opposed to during the explosion, meaning he has to generate both the force and aim from his wrists and elbows which are already outside his body. Second shot to look at is at 20-22 second mark. Here the left elbow is slightly elevated, the left hand is high on the ball as he's cheating to get it mid body. This is all caused due to bringing his hands up late in the jump again. the ball is moves from just left of his bellybutton to right of his head on the way up as he shoots with his eyes, not mechanics. Its a flaw where he doesn't trust the body and release. Again, he shoots after the explosion is gone and he's hanging. 41 through 44 second mark he leads with his right foot on the jumper because his body isn't square to start. The ball goes in after a friendly bounce but the shot was very off and pushed as he rushed to beat the defender. Because the defender was on him he rushes it and pushes it because of bad habits bringing the ball up late so he pushes, not shoots...its a completely different release and he's lucky it goes in. 50 through 54...this one isn't too bad except he hangs in the air again. Here it helps him but its a sign of a very bad habit. But the body is at least square and the ball is brought straight up. 1:13 to 1:17...wow is he turned and leading with the right side of his body. But he releases through the explosion and despite not coming up square, he's shooting with his legs not hands and its the best shot so far. 1 minute 17 seconds of highlights and 5 different releases, feet placements and approaches. This is what he needs to fix first. It is already more consistent than in college but needs much work. Cam rarely takes the same shot in a row. While he has high end variance, UNLIKE Tyler Herro, Herro's form, feet, fundamentals, and mechanics are the same each time. Cam's is always different. So while I agree with you thecampster, he needs to continue to work on his shooting fundamentals. He needs to develop MENTAL consistent (Muscle Memory) on his fundamentals as well. If I shot the ball with my eyes close, I should have the mental storage on lock. Cam doesn't and it shows. I've said this at Duke about him, I've said it about Monk at UK and I've said it about Edwards at UGA. They shoot it like scorers, not shooters. Cam has to become a shooter. Lou Williams took at leap. Cam has to as well. Prime example of someone who does: 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBASupes Posted January 9, 2020 Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 Another thing I saw in the Sasha video I notice about Cam. I also noticed it about Trae too but moreso Cam. His focus and concentration is not great yet. Once it is, I think he could be a 90% free throw shooter. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post AHF Posted January 9, 2020 Moderators Popular Post Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 That is the first time I've ever heard the phrase NBA "Star" Sasha Vujacic. 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Popular Post Atlantaholic Posted January 9, 2020 Premium Member Popular Post Report Share Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, AHF said: That is the first time I've ever heard the phrase NBA "Star" Sasha Vujacic. And it will be the last. 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Spud2nique Posted January 10, 2020 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 41 minutes ago, AHF said: That is the first time I've ever heard the phrase NBA "Star" Sasha Vujacic. I don’t know why I hated this guy so much. Probably top 10 ever. 1. Bill Laimbeer 2. Danny Ainge 3. Larry Bird 4. Matthew Dellavadova 5. Paul Piece 6. Charles Barkley 7. Rick Mahorn 8. Kevin Garnett 9. Rajon Rondo 10. Sasha Vujacic Half the list is Celts. @NBASupes out of everyone in league history you picked Sasha? Damn man...aight you do you. It’s not bad..it’s just sad. 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EazyRoc Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 hours ago, kg01 said: I think we all understand the team will be so much better when Trae doesn't have to go nuclear for us to win. We don't get to that point without developing our wangs. Gotta take our medicine at some point. You hate us don't you, eazy? Nah I was stirring the pot. He still can’t shoot though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud2nique Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 Has anyone traded Drummond to Hawks on 2K just to see how he works with Trae. Actually I doubt 2K will be indicative, in this scenario they would probably do well, 2K doesn’t factor in our future and other things obviously but fun to try. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorthCydeRises Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 8 hours ago, txsting said: The eye test doesn't pass for me. He doesn't look good on defense to me, except for the effort is good. The results are no good. He gives up 64% DFG, which is, well, it isn't good. NBA real defensive plus/minus, he ranks 52 out of 75 small forwards. I think the perception of Cam as a good defender is a blend of 1) homer bias and 2) he was so bad on offense that he didn't look like a complete bum on the other end of the court, so that's good right??? Right? Where do you see that he gives up 64% DFG%? I see 44% DFG% https://stats.nba.com/player/1629629/defense-dash/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBASupes Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said: Where do you see that he gives up 64% DFG%? I see 44% DFG% https://stats.nba.com/player/1629629/defense-dash/ He made it up to dog Cam out 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Popular Post Sothron Posted January 10, 2020 Premium Member Popular Post Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 I keep coming back to this thread every new day with so many responses thinking we've made a trade. Silly me! 1 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud2nique Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Sothron said: I keep coming back to this thread every new day with so many responses thinking we've made a trade. Silly me! Wait r u pro Drummond trade soth? I forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleachkit Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, Sothron said: I keep coming back to this thread every new day with so many responses thinking we've made a trade. Silly me! A consummated trade would get a whole new thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchman Posted January 10, 2020 Report Share Posted January 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, bleachkit said: A consummated trade would get a whole new thread. Even when it turns out to be another Turner/Parsons/Plumlee type of trade? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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