[Winter 2020] Woj Rumor: Drummmmmnd to ATL talks happening

[JayBirdHawk]

20 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Are you done? You said I called him a future HOF. Where? All I ever said he was he would break the NBA as a rookie which I was wrong about. I'll take my L for that. It is what it is. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again in the future. As I said, until they play in the NBA, it's always up for grabs. 

That's one thing I will always appreciate about you Supes...you always man up and take your Ls.

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Bertans.  Book it.

I'd be good with it.

[AHF]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

That's right, saphron.

On a side note, do you still have that remote cabin out in the woods where no one can hear you scream?

Just thinking of places we can have supes' surprise "birthday" party. *wink* *wink*

Soth's get away:

Just open that present Supes!

[JTB]

20 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

That's one thing I will always appreciate about you Supes...you always man up and take your Ls.

I appreciate that too but it’s not officially a “L” just yet...maybe for rookie season but I too believe reddish could be a star in this era.

i will only be ready to take back those beliefs if cam doesn’t show improvement over the summer and going into next season 

[bleachkit]

55 minutes ago, txsting said:

You said so many things, almost all of which were ridiculous.  Maybe you were just drunk, it's cool.  I'll let you speak for yourself:

1) "He [Cam] is the NBA's Randy Moss."  Uhmmm.  Randy's a first ballot HOFer and a unicorn who literally changed the way the game is played, even changed the desired physical specs of a WR.  Cam is just another unskilled wang in a league full of them.

2) "Cam has the range to shoot consistently from 30ft".  Please, Lord, no.

3) "Cam could end up with a rare 3 to 4 OBPM as a rookie".  Yeah it's rare alright.  How about -5.4 so far?  Battling with Jordan Poole for one of the worst marks of all time.

4) "He sky over Zion for a board.  This look like a 3.7 REBs guy?"  He made a nice play that one time!  Not looking like a high end rebounder for a 6'9" guy, 5.4 boards per 36. It's not too bad really, considering that way he's utilized.  

5) "Probably the easiest transition since Al Horford ... Probably the easiest transition of all rookies in along (sic) time."

6) "If he matches his offensive impact with his defensive impact, he would be one of the best VORP and BPM rookies since Tim Duncan and rivaling Tim Duncan".  We talked about OBPM, how about DBPM?  -0.8, a tick worse than Jabari Parker at -0.7.  That in the 36th percentile of NBA players.  You did say you liked BPM as a measure right?  When I say he's ok defensively, I'm think I'm probably being generous.  You like VORP too, -0.9, right there with DeAndre Hunter (who has also had a disaster of a season) as second worst in the league to, again, Jordan Poole.

You had at least one thing right:
1) "Cam has an NBA body already".  Yep, elite length, quickness, leaping, lateral movement are all on display in his rookie season.  These God given traits are what got him drafted so high.  The thing that all of that has in common is that none of it is a basketball skill.  He's going to need to acquire some of those to remain in the league past his rookie deal.  He can shoot FT's at an 80% clip, so maybe he can work on his dribble drives and his left hand to get to the line more and offset some of the transitional problems he's having with shooting the ball.

You must be new here. Let me explain how it works. Hawks draft a player. Squawk regulars go wild. Grandiose, far fetched, and even insane predictions of future success are made. Skeptics are roundly dismissed or shouted down. Player begins career. Signs of trouble emerge. Usual refrain of "we wont really know until 3 or 4 years down the line" emerges. Rinse and repeat. 

[Gray Mule]

@NBASupes Has led us in a new direction about the Atlanta Hawks rebuild.  I have a question, requiring some of you to share your opinion.

Jaban Parker is out for at least two weeks.  He is a 24 year old, former #2 draft pick.  He started and played quiet a bit while Collins was out 25 games.  He was signed to a $6.5 million per year contract.  He had to go through Emory Healthcare and Chelsea Lane to re hab.  

That was successful.  We know.  He played a lot.

I have read speculation that he will never play for the Hawks again.  That he will be traded.  No facts on this.  Just some writers guess.

Since the Hawks are now expected to start building their team, do you believe that Jaban Parker will be a part of the future Hawk team?

[JTB]

2 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

He may want to stay, but does Detroit want to keep him? They will be in FULL rebuild mode after this year. Why keep a semi-aging expensive piece around when you want to accumulate as many young draft picks as possible?

Well the owner loves him .....sooo that’s really my only two reasons. Drummond wants to be in Detroit and the owner has made it known that he loves Drummond.

 

 

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Travis is good at what he does but this is critical. Building out a roster is hard work. We have scrubs before trying to do it BudCox, decent but mediocre guys do it BK and Sund, and talented guys do it in Ferry. It's not easy to do. It was the most critical part to Golden State success before Durant joined.

Yeah, getting talent is one thing, but getting a core that complents can be another. We’ve seen it before.

[bleachkit]

Zach Lowe on Drummond and Trae.

3. Andre Drummond, turnover machine

Drummond has 99 assists and 131 turnovers. That is ... not great. He is posting by far the highest turnover rate of his career. He ranks 399th in assist-to-turnover ratio.

This is only sort of about Drummond, who enjoyed a mini-breakout as a distributor from the elbows right before the Pistons acquired Blake Griffin to do that same job. With Griffin, Reggie Jackson and now Luke Kennard injured, the creative burden on Drummond is too much. Detroit has no easy path to decent shots when Derrick Rose is off the floor. The upside of a thread-the-needle pass from Drummond might be worth the risk of a turnover.

But some of it is on Drummond. He has suffered a bunch of alarming cough-ups in the open floor, often without anyone pressuring him -- bounces off his foot, carrying violations, straight pratfalls:

It's as if the circuitry connecting his brain to his hands shorts out.

He hasn't really advanced as passer on the move in the pick-and-roll -- a crucial skill for any frequent screen-setter:

He has trouble mapping the floor -- tracking shooters and anticipating how the defense will rotate.

Detroit is still sussing out the market for Drummond, sources say. His potential availability presents interesting dilemmas for suitors. It's easy to get perhaps too low on Drummond. He's an old-fashioned brutish center valuable on defense only when he goes full throttle, and even then he isn't near the class of Rudy Gobert and Joel Embiid.

But he's a monstrous rebounder -- one of the greatest ever. A trade could motivate him. A trade to a contender could really motivate him.

He has never played alongside an elite pick-and-roll ball handler. Remember when the Jackson-Drummond pick-and-roll was a thing? Hell, remember when the Brandon Jennings-Drummond pick-and-roll was a thing for a hot second? What would Drummond look like dancing with James Harden, Kemba Walker, LeBron, Trae Young or Luka Doncic? (Note: I am not suggesting those teams as trade destinations.)

He'd surely look better, but he doesn't seem as explosive rim-running as he once was. Good teams are more curious about his defense anyway.

6. Get Trae Young moving, please

The All-Star conversation is becoming a premature referendum on Young: Is he a stats-hoarding gimmick enabled by a desperate-for-attention franchise?

That characterization is harsh, even if Young might be the worst defensive player in the league. Young runs more pick-and-rolls than anyone, but that doesn't mean his numbers are empty. He's a gifted passer, and he gets rid of it early when he sees an open teammate or a mismatch. His extra-long 3s stretch defenses to their breaking point -- opening lanes for everyone else.

Atlanta scores 108 points per 100 possessions with Young on the floor, and a grotesque 92 -- miles below the league's worst offense -- when he sits. You could argue that chasm is the penalty for building an all-Young, all-the-time offense; when he sits, the Hawks are clueless. Some of that is probably going on.

But this roster beyond Young and John Collins is mostly geezers, cap fodder, and guys in their first and second seasons. Young carrying them to something like a league-average offense is an accomplishment -- indicative of skills that will translate onto winning Atlanta teams.

That said, I would like to see more of this as Kevin Huerter, De'Andre Hunter, Cam Reddish, and the rest improve:

Young has attempted only 58 catch-and-shoot 3s -- about 1.7 per 36 minutes. That is down slightly from last season. Young has attempted five times as many pull-up 3s. Stephen Curry's splits were never nearly so stark.

Curry lifted the Warriors' offense -- and empowered teammates -- by leveraging the threat of his shooting as a screener and cutter. He turned his jumper into a mobile weapon that could materialize anywhere, anytime. The biggest difference between Young and Curry is that Young so far has shown little appetite for that.

Of course, younger Curry had superior teammates -- guys who made good decisions with the ball while he ran around. Young has to give his teammates at least some chance to prove themselves. Nudging Young in this direction would be one reason for Atlanta to acquire one or two playable veterans.

Would we tell Doncic, Harden, LeBron or Giannis Antetokounmpo -- suns in their respective solar systems -- to give up the ball some? Maybe not. But Young has one weapon they don't, and one liability -- size.

[JTB]

2 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Yeah, getting talent is one thing, but getting a core that complents can be another. We’ve seen it before.

I wouldn’t worry just yet about Schlenk actually building the team out with fits. It’s clear he has not tried to really build this team out with actual fits and with traes outstanding 2nd season so far we can thank him for ressler pushing Schlenk to fill out this roster with good fits a year earlier than he intended 

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

@NBASupes Has led us in a new direction about the Atlanta Hawks rebuild.  I have a question, requiring some of you to share your opinion.

Jaban Parker is out for at least two weeks.  He is a 24 year old, former #2 draft pick.  He started and played quiet a bit while Collins was out 25 games.  He was signed to a $6.5 million per year contract.  He had to go through Emory Healthcare and Chelsea Lane to re hab.  

That was successful.  We know.  He played a lot.

I have read speculation that he will never play for the Hawks again.  That he will be traded.  No facts on this.  Just some writers guess.

Since the Hawks are now expected to start building their team, do you believe that Jaban Parker will be a part of the future Hawk team?

I can't say. He is highly valued on the open market. Teams covet him. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This is a different level. Before, we didn't even care about fit outside of the core group. Now, the entire team will fit the plan moving forward.

We have graduated from asset accumulation to building a team. Funny because we are in last place in the entire league. Lol

33 wins will almost guarantee the 8th seed in the East.

Can the Hawks go 25 - 19 the rest of the way?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

As for the player Supes is talking about, look for someone who is disgruntled, or slightly disgruntled, and will be at least a restricted FA next season.

Problem is, this player doesn't want to sit the bench.

[turnermx]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

As for the player Supes is talking about, look for someone who is disgruntled, or slightly disgruntled, and will be at least a restricted FA next season.

Problem is, this player doesn't want to sit the bench.

Would absolutely love Ded and Bogs to somehow be obtained.  I could see Hawks going at least 25-19 the rest of the way if that happened. Ded already fits the scheme LP wants to implement and Bogs is a desperately needed shooter to take pressure off the rooks.

[High5]

34 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

33 wins will almost guarantee the 8th seed in the East.

Can the Hawks go 25 - 19 the rest of the way?

I doubt 33 wins will be enough. No one has made the playoffs with that winning percentage or worse since the Spurs in '88.  Brooklyn only has to go 18-28 to reach 34 wins.

But I also doubt we can go 25-19 without adding a starter. Which for the best. Losing our lottery pick and Brooklyn's pick would be a disaster.

[GameTime]

45 minutes ago, turnermx said:

Would absolutely love Ded and Bogs to somehow be obtained.  I could see Hawks going at least 25-19 the rest of the way if that happened. Ded already fits the scheme LP wants to implement and Bogs is a desperately needed shooter to take pressure off the rooks.

Vlade already wants Kings ransom for Dedmon.

Ded+Bog for Turner+Trae+Cam+Collins is probably Vlade's offer.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, bleachkit said:

Zach Lowe on Drummond and Trae.

3. Andre Drummond, turnover machine

Drummond has 99 assists and 131 turnovers. That is ... not great. He is posting by far the highest turnover rate of his career. He ranks 399th in assist-to-turnover ratio.

This is only sort of about Drummond, who enjoyed a mini-breakout as a distributor from the elbows right before the Pistons acquired Blake Griffin to do that same job. With Griffin, Reggie Jackson and now Luke Kennard injured, the creative burden on Drummond is too much. Detroit has no easy path to decent shots when Derrick Rose is off the floor. The upside of a thread-the-needle pass from Drummond might be worth the risk of a turnover.

But some of it is on Drummond. He has suffered a bunch of alarming cough-ups in the open floor, often without anyone pressuring him -- bounces off his foot, carrying violations, straight pratfalls:

It's as if the circuitry connecting his brain to his hands shorts out.

He hasn't really advanced as passer on the move in the pick-and-roll -- a crucial skill for any frequent screen-setter:

He has trouble mapping the floor -- tracking shooters and anticipating how the defense will rotate.

Detroit is still sussing out the market for Drummond, sources say. His potential availability presents interesting dilemmas for suitors. It's easy to get perhaps too low on Drummond. He's an old-fashioned brutish center valuable on defense only when he goes full throttle, and even then he isn't near the class of Rudy Gobert and Joel Embiid.

But he's a monstrous rebounder -- one of the greatest ever. A trade could motivate him. A trade to a contender could really motivate him.

He has never played alongside an elite pick-and-roll ball handler. Remember when the Jackson-Drummond pick-and-roll was a thing? Hell, remember when the Brandon Jennings-Drummond pick-and-roll was a thing for a hot second? What would Drummond look like dancing with James Harden, Kemba Walker, LeBron, Trae Young or Luka Doncic? (Note: I am not suggesting those teams as trade destinations.)

He'd surely look better, but he doesn't seem as explosive rim-running as he once was. Good teams are more curious about his defense anyway.

6. Get Trae Young moving, please

The All-Star conversation is becoming a premature referendum on Young: Is he a stats-hoarding gimmick enabled by a desperate-for-attention franchise?

That characterization is harsh, even if Young might be the worst defensive player in the league. Young runs more pick-and-rolls than anyone, but that doesn't mean his numbers are empty. He's a gifted passer, and he gets rid of it early when he sees an open teammate or a mismatch. His extra-long 3s stretch defenses to their breaking point -- opening lanes for everyone else.

Atlanta scores 108 points per 100 possessions with Young on the floor, and a grotesque 92 -- miles below the league's worst offense -- when he sits. You could argue that chasm is the penalty for building an all-Young, all-the-time offense; when he sits, the Hawks are clueless. Some of that is probably going on.

But this roster beyond Young and John Collins is mostly geezers, cap fodder, and guys in their first and second seasons. Young carrying them to something like a league-average offense is an accomplishment -- indicative of skills that will translate onto winning Atlanta teams.

That said, I would like to see more of this as Kevin Huerter, De'Andre Hunter, Cam Reddish, and the rest improve:

Young has attempted only 58 catch-and-shoot 3s -- about 1.7 per 36 minutes. That is down slightly from last season. Young has attempted five times as many pull-up 3s. Stephen Curry's splits were never nearly so stark.

Curry lifted the Warriors' offense -- and empowered teammates -- by leveraging the threat of his shooting as a screener and cutter. He turned his jumper into a mobile weapon that could materialize anywhere, anytime. The biggest difference between Young and Curry is that Young so far has shown little appetite for that.

Of course, younger Curry had superior teammates -- guys who made good decisions with the ball while he ran around. Young has to give his teammates at least some chance to prove themselves. Nudging Young in this direction would be one reason for Atlanta to acquire one or two playable veterans.

Would we tell Doncic, Harden, LeBron or Giannis Antetokounmpo -- suns in their respective solar systems -- to give up the ball some? Maybe not. But Young has one weapon they don't, and one liability -- size.

Drummond's turnovers.  

Once again folks, you can see all of this for yourself.  No need to rely on a sportswriter, when you can see it with your own eyes.

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&CFID=33&CFPARAMS=2019-20&PlayerID=203083&TeamID=0&GameID=&ContextMeasure=TOV&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular Season&LeagueID=00&PerMode=Totals&Split=general&PlusMinus=N&PaceAdjust=N&Rank=N&Outcome=&Location=&Month=0&SeasonSegment=&OpponentTeamID=0&VsConference=&VsDivision=&GameSegment=&Period=0&LastNGames=0&DateFrom=&DateTo=&PORound=0&ShotClockRange=&MeasureType=Base&section=player&sct=plot

[TheNorthCydeRises]

16 minutes ago, High5 said:

I doubt 33 wins will be enough. No one has made the playoffs with that winning percentage or worse since the Spurs in '88.  Brooklyn only has to go 18-28 to reach 34 wins.

But I also doubt we can go 25-19 without adding a starter. Which for the best. Losing our lottery pick and Brooklyn's pick would be a disaster.

It's Orlando that may free fall below 30 wins, not Brooklyn ( although they're free falling right now ).

Edited January 10, 2020 by TheNorthCydeRises

[GameTime]

 

[JTB]

42 minutes ago, GameTime said:

 

I’m all for Adams too if no Drummond ! At first I would have taken Adams and Dennis but I’m good with Goodwin as backup point for the time being!

i don’t think presti will make a easy trade to get Adams however so it’s likely not to happen.

i think we have a better shot at Bertans honestly 

[JayBirdHawk]

Quote

The source said it was the Pistons who initiated discussions with a package centered around Drummond and another Pistons player for big man Julius Randle and guard Frank Ntilikina, a player the Pistons have previously tried to pry from the Knicks.

The Pistons are working to land more than just expiring matching salaries.

They want at least one asset, meaning either a young player with promise or a future draft pick.

That could be a tough ask.

Drummond has a $28.7 million player option for next season that he plans to decline, meaning he will hit the open market this summer. He would try to sign a multi-year deal without much competition in what’s considered a down year for free agents.

Why would a team surrender an asset for a two-month rental?

Teams are reluctant to surrender value under such a scenario.

Think back to Kemba Walker’s last season with Charlotte Hornets before the 2019 deadline. The Hornets kept Walker because teams were unwilling to offer a major haul for a player they could sign in a few months as a free agent. The Hornets decided to keep Walker, deciding he had more value in a playoff run. Walker signed with the Boston Celtics last offseason.