BIG Man Depth Needed : Off Season 2021

[MaceCase]

I think the concern is overstated, Embiid was the MVP runner-up and the Bucks' bigs feasted from penetration, penetration, and some more penetration.

I believe Gallo provides plenty of post offense but if the feeling is that you find turnaround jump hooks more pleasing than jumpers then might I suggest Enes Kanter?  Did you shudder? Of course you did.

JaVale McGee fits the bill the best from a money/minutes standpoint.  His early career was marred by being the total opposite of mental maturity but he's been a cog on two championship teams recently, particularly the familiar Warriors.  Maybe he can offer something in the locker room plus be able to fill in as an emergency C?

You may shudder again but... if you're looking for a C option that can be deployed a lil more often than McGee due to age, for matchups, foul trouble, even spot start here and there due to injuries/rest then our old buddy Alex Len could help.

Overall, the 4 man rotation of John/Gallo and Cap/Gwu is beyond solid.  Gwu seems set to be Cap's eventual replacement so a 3rd vet C would be sufficient for now and then you can stick Knight in the GLeague as the 4th C.  I'd draft a PF to be Gallo's eventual replacement or even John's.  I have a strong belief John is brought back even if it might be with the idea of trading him down the line in the not so distant future.

As for the rest of the off-season, I don't see Dunn opting out but maybe a healthy summer and contract year motivation gets him back to the player he was.  Because of the player he was, I don't see another non-shooting guard being added (sorry T.J.).  I'd personally like a bigger scoring combo guard like Austin Rivers then Schlenk can play musical chairs with Snell or any of the plethora of wing shooters.

[RandomFan]

37 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

I think the concern is overstated, Embiid was the MVP runner-up and the Bucks' bigs feasted from penetration, penetration, and some more penetration.

I believe Gallo provides plenty of post offense but if the feeling is that you find turnaround jump hooks more pleasing than jumpers then might I suggest Enes Kanter?  Did you shudder? Of course you did.

JaVale McGee fits the bill the best from a money/minutes standpoint.  His early career was marred by being the total opposite of mental maturity but he's been a cog on two championship teams recently, particularly the familiar Warriors.  Maybe he can offer something in the locker room plus be able to fill in as an emergency C?

You may shudder again but... if you're looking for a C option that can be deployed a lil more often than McGee due to age, for matchups, foul trouble, even spot start here and there due to injuries/rest then our old buddy Alex Len could help.

Overall, the 4 man rotation of John/Gallo and Cap/Gwu is beyond solid.  Gwu seems set to be Cap's eventual replacement so a 3rd vet C would be sufficient for now and then you can stick Knight in the GLeague as the 4th C.  I'd draft a PF to be Gallo's eventual replacement or even John's.  I have a strong belief John is brought back even if it might be with the idea of trading him down the line in the not so distant future.

As for the rest of the off-season, I don't see Dunn opting out but maybe a healthy summer and contract year motivation gets him back to the player he was.  Because of the player he was, I don't see another non-shooting guard being added (sorry T.J.).  I'd personally like a bigger scoring combo guard like Austin Rivers then Schlenk can play musical chairs with Snell or any of the plethora of wing shooters.

Agree on most here. People seem to be focused on Capelas lack of elite size, but that's not why players like Embiid still got theirs. It's because those players are *skilled* not because they are bigger. It blows my mind people want to blame Capela for not being able to stop the MVP runner up. That just isn't gonna happen, no matter who is guarding him. 

And Lopez didn't really get his points going one on one with Cap; he got his off of perimeter defensive breakdowns and miscommunication. He didn't just go out and dominate 1v1 like Embiid did.

Also agree on Dunn and McConnell. I hope we keep Dunn and actually get to see what he can do for a full year healthy. Especially for only $5m.

Agree that a stretch PF to eventually replace Gallo is a good choice in the draft at 20.

Not opposed to Len coming back as a 3rd center, or Mcgee. 

[RedDawg#8]

I think we all can agree that Bruno's DNP-CD's can be easily replaced by a big body vet who only see's the floor every once in a while.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, MaceCase said:

I think the concern is overstated, Embiid was the MVP runner-up and the Bucks' bigs feasted from penetration, penetration, and some more penetration.

Say this again and keep saying it.

[ATLHawks3]

3 hours ago, RandomFan said:

Agree on most here. People seem to be focused on Capelas lack of elite size, but that's not why players like Embiid still got theirs. It's because those players are *skilled* not because they are bigger. It blows my mind people want to blame Capela for not being able to stop the MVP runner up. That just isn't gonna happen, no matter who is guarding him. 

And Lopez didn't really get his points going one on one with Cap; he got his off of perimeter defensive breakdowns and miscommunication. He didn't just go out and dominate 1v1 like Embiid did.

Also agree on Dunn and McConnell. I hope we keep Dunn and actually get to see what he can do for a full year healthy. Especially for only $5m.

Agree that a stretch PF to eventually replace Gallo is a good choice in the draft at 20.

Not opposed to Len coming back as a 3rd center, or Mcgee. 

My only gripe with Capela is that the last few games of the Bucks series. He couldn't score without it being a lob or putback, and because of that, it severely affected his hustle (making key rotations, and getting key rebounds).

[JayBirdHawk]

Bring back Edy Tavares!

 

[sturt]

(Aside that seems to belong in this thread... let there be no doubt... I for one remain stout in my conviction that, even though the writing is on the wall, this team will rue the day that it stopped considering Bruno an asset worth developing. Hoping for his sake that he ends up in DET or OKC or ORL or anywhere that they're in player development mode.)

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, sturt said:

(Aside that seems to belong in this thread... let there be no doubt... I for one remain stout in my conviction that, even though the writing is on the wall, this team will rue the day that it stopped considering Bruno an asset worth developing. Hoping for his sake that he ends up in DET or OKC or ORL or anywhere that they're in player development mode.)

I was looking for the Bruno thread to ask what do we do with him.

[Diesel]

18 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

 

If we are SERIOUS about winning a chip, the Hawks need to target these guys

• KAT
• Bradley Beal
• Zach Lavine
• DeMar Derozan
• Kawhi Leonard

We need that Bonafide 1st or 2nd option alongside Trae.  Not a guy by committee that shows up every now and then.  That's who your #3 or #4 guys are.

Hell NO....

To KAT and Kawhi and Derozan.

I have an agenda where I would like Lavine... but he doesn't play enough defense to play next to Trae.

That leaves Bradley Beal.  Getting Beal means giving up Bogi. 

Beal is a volume scorer that Shoots about 35% from 3.

This year, Bogi shot 38% from 3.   It doesn't make much sense. 

So out of everybody you named...  Zach Lavine would be the best offensive compliment to our team.  But defensively we will struggle. 

 

Why did I say no to Kawhi and Derozan?

Kawhi is a headcase.   I don't want to touch him. 

Derozan can't hit a three pointer to save his life.   He will master the midrange but consistent points?  I'd rather keep Bogi. 

 

 

[Diesel]

14 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

The crazy thing is . . Collins has shown the most potential if you compare them to Hunter and Reddish.  But most fans are willing to bet that both of them become better than Collins.  I'm not so sure about that. 

Collins is a damn good complimentary offensive player right now.  He's just not aggressive enough when looking for his shot.  That's why he tends to disappear in games.  

He needs a pull up jumper that he can go to off the dribble in the midrange.  He has a real shot at being a lethal scorer in the league, if he develops this.   He needs to watch videos of ( regular season ) Julius Randle, and how he creates offense in isolation.

I like Hunter and Cam.  Both have good potential on both sides of the ball.  This year will be critical for both of them, to see if they can get some consistency in their games.  I have no problem keeping them around, if the Hawks don't want to go all out for a championship at this time.

More than watch videos He needs to train like Randle trained.  Randle just developed these skills over an offseason of training.  None of this was present when he played for the Lakers or other teams. 

I agree about the pull up Jumper.. but for that training, he don't have to go far.  Work out with Reddish.   Reddish show why he has star potential because he's able to pull up and bury a three pointer.  The problem with Reddish is that he's a black hole on offense and he tends to make mistakes with the ball.   Trae managed Reddish in that Trae was feeding him when he saw Reddish in good positions... the problem is that if Reddish brings up the ball, he's probably going to look to score.  He has that "hero ball" in him.   This is probably because he didn't stay a Duke long enough for Coach K to Coach it out of him. 

But JC... is a guy who didn't grow up being a AAU star... so he doesn't have that aggression all the time.   However, I think this playoffs brought a lot out of him.   Trae is the maestro that makes JC better. 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, RandomFan said:

Agree on most here. People seem to be focused on Capelas lack of elite size, but that's not why players like Embiid still got theirs. It's because those players are *skilled* not because they are bigger. It blows my mind people want to blame Capela for not being able to stop the MVP runner up. That just isn't gonna happen, no matter who is guarding him. 

And Lopez didn't really get his points going one on one with Cap; he got his off of perimeter defensive breakdowns and miscommunication. He didn't just go out and dominate 1v1 like Embiid did.

Also agree on Dunn and McConnell. I hope we keep Dunn and actually get to see what he can do for a full year healthy. Especially for only $5m.

Agree that a stretch PF to eventually replace Gallo is a good choice in the draft at 20.

Not opposed to Len coming back as a 3rd center, or Mcgee. 

AMEN.

People don't understand also that our whole defense has holes.  Nate did an awesome job of making us look better than we are.. but Bud sniffed out our issues.   And here they are:

With either Trae or Williams out there....  we would play them on the least valuable offensive player (PJ Tucker for Milwaukee).    Bud said, let's use Tucker or Portis in a PNR for Holiday.  Get Holiday moving downhill and that will draw in Capela.  Once Capela is drawn... His man Lopez will be covered by JC who has to leave his man to cover lopez.   JC can't cover Lopez... Lopez just tells Holiday to put it upstairs and I will dunk on this little dude.

When JC was out and Gallo in.  Gallo didn't even make an effort to get over to cover Lopez. 

The fix may be having Hunter back.  Hunter can do what Bogi couldn't do... stick with Holiday... This was the same play set that NY used with Noel and Rose.  Even though Rose scorched us... Hunter contained who Rose could pass off to and we didn't let NY get threes off.  That's why a lot of Randle shots were rushed and he never could develop a rhythm. 

I don't know Nate's mind, but I think he's OK with letting them beat us from outside... but stopping the dribble drive was at the heart of what we wanted to do because Dru Holidays best work comes on the drive. 

 

[RandomFan]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

AMEN.

People don't understand also that our whole defense has holes.  Nate did an awesome job of making us look better than we are.. but Bud sniffed out our issues.   And here they are:

With either Trae or Williams out there....  we would play them on the least valuable offensive player (PJ Tucker for Milwaukee).    Bud said, let's use Tucker or Portis in a PNR for Holiday.  Get Holiday moving downhill and that will draw in Capela.  Once Capela is drawn... His man Lopez will be covered by JC who has to leave his man to cover lopez.   JC can't cover Lopez... Lopez just tells Holiday to put it upstairs and I will dunk on this little dude. I fully expect those miscommunications and breakdowns to happen less and less as time goes by. 

When JC was out and Gallo in.  Gallo didn't even make an effort to get over to cover Lopez. 

The fix may be having Hunter back.  Hunter can do what Bogi couldn't do... stick with Holiday... This was the same play set that NY used with Noel and Rose.  Even though Rose scorched us... Hunter contained who Rose could pass off to and we didn't let NY get threes off.  That's why a lot of Randle shots were rushed and he never could develop a rhythm. 

I don't know Nate's mind, but I think he's OK with letting them beat us from outside... but stopping the dribble drive was at the heart of what we wanted to do because Dru Holidays best work comes on the drive. 

 

Agree. And as I said before there were a lot of breakdowns and miscommunications in team defense. Nate had half a season to implement his defensive principles. Now he has a full offseason and a half year of experience for the players going forward. Team defense is definitely something that will improve with more experience playing with each other in the same system over time. 

Bringing up Gallo, he was a surprising 1v1 defender this postseason, which shows he wants it. But he was very bad as a team or help defender. He was a big part of our defensive problems when he was in the game, along with our rebounding issues. He just doesn't have the agility or athleticism to be a factor in team defense anymore due to his age and past injuries. It is what it is. He's obviously a great offensive threat and a needed perimeter shooter, but if he gets traded this offseason then I think it would be in our best interests most likely. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by RandomFan

[Blunt91]

     I know some will say he is old "trash" but what about Tyson Chandler?  Yes he will turn 39 years old in October but he is still 7'1 with long arms.  He may not be as athletic as he use to be, but he is still not a stiff and most importantly he knows that he can't demand a lot of Playing time and we could sign him for the Veteran's minimum.

[JayBirdHawk]

7 minutes ago, Blunt91 said:

     I know some will say he is old "trash" but what about Tyson Chandler?  Yes he will turn 39 years old in October but he is still 7'1 with long arms.  He may not be as athletic as he use to be, but he is still not a stiff and most importantly he knows that he can't demand a lot of Playing time and we could sign him for the Veteran's minimum.

Isn't he retired. He wasn't on a team this season.

[REHawksFan]

Not sure if the formatting is going to get messed up, but here's a list of "available" centers.  Of these, Robin Lopez, Boogie Cousins, or I guess, Alex Len would be potential candidates for me.  

 

PLAYER (33)	TEAM	POS.	AGE	EXP	TYPE	RIGHTS	2020-2021 AAV
Dwight Howard	PHI	C	35	17	UFA	Non-Bird	$2,564,753
Robin Lopez	WAS	C	33	13	UFA	Non-Bird	$7,300,000
JaVale McGee	DEN	C	33	13	UFA	Bird	$4,100,000
Boban Marjanovic	DAL	C	33	6	UFA	Early Bird	$3,500,000
Serge Ibaka	LAC	C	32	11	PO		$9,489,450
Ed Davis	MIN	C	32	11	UFA	Early Bird	$4,886,175
Hassan Whiteside	SAC	C	32	9	UFA	Non-Bird	$2,320,044
Dewayne Dedmon	MIA	C	32	8	UFA	Non-Bird	$580,811
Gorgui Dieng	SAS	C	31	8	UFA	Non-Bird	$1,000,000
DeMarcus Cousins	LAC	C	31	10	UFA	Non-Bird	$335,366
Daniel Theis	CHI	C	29	4	UFA	Bird	$5,000,000
Enes Kanter	POR	C	29	10	UFA	Early Bird	$4,886,175
Bismack Biyombo	CHA	C	29	10	UFA	Non-Bird	$3,500,000
Cody Zeller	CHA	C	28	8	UFA	Bird	$14,000,000
Frank Kaminsky	PHX	C	28	6	UFA	Non-Bird	$4,767,000
Willie Cauley-Stein	DAL	C	28	5	CO		$4,100,000
Alex Len	WAS	C	28	8	UFA	Non-Bird	$1,697,755
Andre Drummond	LAL	C	28	9	UFA	Non-Bird	$794,536
Nerlens Noel	NYK	C	27	8	UFA	Non-Bird	$5,000,000
Richaun Holmes	SAC	C	27	6	UFA	Early Bird	$4,886,175
Willy Hernangomez	NOP	C	27	5	UFA	Non-Bird	$1,737,145
Luke Kornet	BOS	C	26	4	UFA	Early Bird	$2,250,000
Jordan Bell	GSW	C	26	4	UFA	Non-Bird	$11,499
Tacko Fall	BOS	C	25	2	RFA	Early Bird	-
Moritz Wagner	ORL	C	24	3	UFA	Non-Bird	$221,995
Devontae Cacok	LAL	C	24	2	RFA	Early Bird	-
Zach Collins	POR	C	23	4	RFA	Bird	$4,083,154
Jarrett Allen	CLE	C	23	4	RFA	Bird	$2,508,646
Tony Bradley	OKC	C	23	4	RFA	Bird	$2,149,715
Isaiah Hartenstein	CLE	C	23	2	PO		$1,691,680
Harry Giles	POR	C	23	4	UFA	Non-Bird	$1,678,854
Mitchell Robinson	NYK	C	23	2	CO		$1,569,671
Reggie Perry	BKN	C	21	1	RFA	Non-Bird	-

[RedDawg#8]

I firmly believe that Capela was injured more than he let on. Even if it was just his psyche, he definitely was a shell of himself after game 4.

I think he was "healthy" enough to play, but his eye injury made him hesitant to mix it up down low. He was getting out worked and blowing bunnies. He was just off.

His series overall was not the best, but that goes for the whole team.

We relied on Capela and Collins to rebound, while the Bucks had their bigs PLUS the Tuckers and Connaughtons of the world crashing the glass to get 50/50 balls.

Even when we got our hands on the ball, they were tipping out or slapping down. It was just scrappy tram rebounding on their end, and they were committed to keeping our bigs off the glass.

[Blunt91]

  

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Isn't he retired. He wasn't on a team this season.

     There were rumors of him retiring last off season, but he still felt that he might want to play.  Don't know if any team called his agent about playing this  season or whether he just decided to sit out the shorten season like Kyle did.

[AtlHomer]

Len is intriguing given he played here before.  He struggled as a starter however did OK playing against the 2nd and 3rd string for the other team.  He can also be a threat with the 3 point shot which adds to his value.  He is only 28 so the question for him is whether he is willing to be the 3rd center on a team at this stage in his career.

McGee fits the profile of what a 3rd center could be and at the right price.  I like Lopez however not sure if he is willing to take a big discount at this time

[NBASupes]

On 7/4/2021 at 4:31 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

You have the right thoughts, but you need to think bigger.

It's not only could they not stop the bigger guys at center.  It's also because they can't provide any offense, unless it's off an offensive rebound, or if a PG creates it for them.  Unlike Embiid and Lopez, both Capela and Okongwu can't be dependent to make a shot beyond 10 feet.

How much more dangerous would this team be, if we had a center who could not only score while rolling to the basket, but could also be a threat from 16+ feet away from the basket?

When we were playing Collins at center, we were hoping that he could be that guy, but he's just too small and not physical enough to play the 5 full time.

If we're going to address the middle, let's swing for the fences and try to get KAT here, instead of a backup center that will have the same issues as the guys we have now.

 

If we're talking championship . . . remember what is normally the criteria

• A guy who is a future Hall of Famer that is currently playing at that level
• A #2 guy who is an All-Star level player that can routinely play like a #1 guy
• A #3 guy who is a borderline All-Star, that can routinely play like an All-Star player

When you look at the 2 teams that are left, Phoenix and Milwaukee, they both have these elements

• Hall of Famer: Paul ( PHX ) . . Giannis ( MIL )
• All-Star:  Booker ( PHX ) . . Middleton ( MIL )
• Borderline All-Star:  Ayton ( PHX ) . . ( MIL )

 

Now put that criteria to the Hawks

• Do we have a future Hall of Famer?  . . . . Trae is trending that way, but it's questionable.
• Do we have a #2 guy who can play like a #1? . . . Trae is at least this guy, but NO, we don't have a true #2
• Do we have a #3 guy who is a borderline All-Star player? . . . Defensively, yes ( Capela ).  Offensively . . no.

This is why the run we went on was so improbable and out of the norm.  Championship teams are normally powered by 2 - 3 guys who can get it done at any given moment.   Like a Spades hand, we had 1 and a possible.  That normally doesn't get you close to a title.

 

If we are SERIOUS about winning a chip, the Hawks need to target these guys

• KAT
• Bradley Beal
• Zach Lavine
• DeMar Derozan
• Kawhi Leonard

We need that Bonafide 1st or 2nd option alongside Trae.  Not a guy by committee that shows up every now and then.  That's who your #3 or #4 guys are.

We are still extremely young.

Trae played like a generational PG. No reason why he can't throughout his career.

Hunter or Reddish can emerge as that legit All Star type. Hell, I wouldn't close the door on Bogi in this category as well. 

I would say Jrue and Ayton are closer to legit All Star types than just borderline but I understand what you mean in general. 

Hawks are unique as we have a lot of talent 1-9 even if it's not elite production wise outside of Trae. 

Capela impact wise has been top 10 in the NBA. I don't think you can just brush your shoulders of it. 

I do think we are following the regular Warriors template with more talent and depth than they had but a lot of our players aren't done improving wise. 

 

As for guys you mention, depending on the cost which is significant, I do think KAT is intriguing. 

Beal, I am not as hot on him as I used to be. He is the best plug n play fit but his defense has to be much better like it was when Wall was in his prime. With Trae, we can't afford two defensive liabilities at all times.

LaVine cost is likely greater than the reward for us.

DeRozan, hell naw. All of our big 4 wings can be better than him sooner than later. 

Kawhi is the one guy I do think could put us over the edge. 

A

Trae

Cam

Kawhi

Hunter 

Capela 

Lineup where we still have Bogi, Kevin, and Okongwu is insane. Obviously, Gallo and Dunn would have to be moved to make the money work is nothing short of amazing.

[NBASupes]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

Hell NO....

To KAT and Kawhi and Derozan.

I have an agenda where I would like Lavine... but he doesn't play enough defense to play next to Trae.

That leaves Bradley Beal.  Getting Beal means giving up Bogi. 

Beal is a volume scorer that Shoots about 35% from 3.

This year, Bogi shot 38% from 3.   It doesn't make much sense. 

So out of everybody you named...  Zach Lavine would be the best offensive compliment to our team.  But defensively we will struggle. 

 

Why did I say no to Kawhi and Derozan?

Kawhi is a headcase.   I don't want to touch him. 

Derozan can't hit a three pointer to save his life.   He will master the midrange but consistent points?  I'd rather keep Bogi. 

 

 

You bring up great points, all of these players bring issues as well as strengths. It's one thing if we are all 7th to 8th year pros and we proven, we need a change but for a core mainly on their rookie contract with elite chemistry and tremendous potential, why change that?