Capela no longer untouchable ???

[dalamchops]

this team might go back to the lottery without capela, it's not like there are better options available...

[ATLHawks3]

4 minutes ago, dalamchops said:

this team might go back to the lottery without capela, it's not like there are better options available...

I agree. You keep him for now, and hope he adds something to his offensive game this summer. But if the right opportunity comes calling to improve at center, we shouldn't hesitate to at least consider it.

[JayBirdHawk]

45 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Right. But in the playoffs, his shot blocking is more matchup driven.  He had 11 blocks in 5 games vs the out-matched (and smaller) Knicks and 8 blocks in the 13 combined games vs the larger Sixers and Bucks.  He also avg fewer overall rebounds vs the Bucks and Sixers than the Knicks (which was directly attributable to fewer DEFENSIVE rebounds as both the Sixers and Bucks held the offensive rebounds advantage).  For a guy that struggle to finish around the rim unless its on a lob, that's a bad combination.   

I'm simply stating what he is vs what he isn't as a defender. 

The playoffs are supposed to be harder the deeper you go. 

This will be Clint's first 'regular offseason' with the Hawks, hopefully they can fix his bunny issues which I think is part and parcel of him.avoiding fouled so he has to go to the freethrow line.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

To be clear:  I'm not "vouching" to trade Capela either. I'm simply saying I'd consider it.  And I'm saying I don't think he's off limits any more. There's a difference between that and actively trying to trade him.  I DON'T think Travis should be shopping Capela, but I'd be ok with it if he was included in a deal for a player that makes us better in the playoffs. And again, there's a difference between shopping and simply being available for inclusion in a trade. 

I agree 100% with your synopsis of Capela as a player.  I like him a lot and think he adds a lot of value to the team.  I'm just saying that coming into the playoffs, I thought he was a vital piece of any championship team because of his work on the glass and rim protection. and limited, but valuable offensive production as a roll man. 

However, what the last 6 weeks has shown me is that in the playoffs he gets overpowered on defense against larger bigs, he gets lost too much on the boards as other teams are collectively crashing and he's no longer just fighting centers but also guys like Pat Connaughton and PJ Tucker, and offensively, he just doesn't have any attribute that translates consistently to the playoffs where - as you pointed out - games are played predominantly in the half-court.   

So I've just downgraded him in my mind from an invaluable piece on a playoff run to a guy that is probably close to invaluable in the regular season to get to the playoffs, but once there, is more of a matchup guy that may or may not have a role.  

In light of the above (and in consideration of OO who I think can replicate what Capela provides in the regular season), I'm just saying I'd be ok with Travis considering including him in a trade if it improves the team in the playoffs and balances the team out more.  And no, I don't have a potential trade to offer.  

I understand what you’re saying but I still feel my point is being missed. In today’s era with all this small ball Capela is the perfect center to have as well as Okungwu type.

But of course as we both know there’s teams that still use big centers like Philly and the bucks obviously….in terms of what center is needed depends solely on the matchups in my opinion.

Vs teams like the Celtics who normally always have a smaller center , Miami Heat (Bam isn’t a big guy at all), and most other teams in the east ….Capela is who we want!

The issue to me is making a decision based on one or two teams…NOW I do think we need to add a bigger center for depth purposes and it’s my number one priority this off season I want to see schlenk get done but I don’t want to see rash decisions made and we don’t run into a 76ers or Bucks team in the playoffs next season.

I do understand it’s a high chance we do run into one of those teams by the semifinals or conference finals shall we move through the playoffs again however….unless there’s a do it all center with size that actually becomes available I don’t see many options for us to improve this issue this off season. Best option to me is get Capela another big behind him that can stop some of the easy ass baskets against us.

[JTB]

16 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm simply stating what he is vs what he isn't as a defender. 

The playoffs are supposed to be harder the deeper you go. 

This will be Clint's first 'regular offseason' with the Hawks, hopefully they can fix his bunny issues which I think is part and parcel of him.avoiding fouled so he has to go to the freethrow line.

I feel that if we played another team in the playoffs not named Philly or Bucks this likely wouldn’t even come up as an issue even if it truly was one still.

i wish I knew how to look up my old post because I mentioned all of this before. Not trying to put out a “I told you so” post but it is what it is.

as far as Capela goes with the bunnies he just need to dunk that shit simple as that . The bunnies seem to be yet another issue vs bigger centers than it is vs most teams…..anyways What I’d rather Capela focus on this off season is strengthening his lower body in a BIG way so he isn’t moved so easy on the low block. I don’t recall who pointed it out on these boards but Capela was being backed down too easy vs Embiid though Embiid is elite even Gallo wasn’t moving that easy on the low block when Embiid tried posting him up. Capela get stronger in leg and lower part that alone will probably be his biggest improvement to stop guys bigger than him 

[JayBirdHawk]

20 minutes ago, JTB said:

I feel that if we played another team in the playoffs not named Philly or Bucks this likely wouldn’t even come up as an issue even if it truly was one still.

i wish I knew how to look up my old post because I mentioned all of this before. Not trying to put out a “I told you so” post but it is what it is.

as far as Capela goes with the bunnies he just need to dunk that shit simple as that . The bunnies seem to be yet another issue vs bigger centers than it is vs most teams…..anyways What I’d rather Capela focus on this off season is strengthening his lower body in a BIG way so he isn’t moved so easy on the low block. I don’t recall who pointed it out on these boards but Capela was being backed down too easy vs Embiid though Embiid is elite even Gallo wasn’t moving that easy on the low block when Embiid tried posting him up. Capela get stronger in leg and lower part that alone will probably be his biggest improvement to stop guys bigger than him 

That's just it though - matchup shows flaws in the playoffs. Losing teams have to adjust but you can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[Peoriabird]

I don't know what the answer should be to the Capela problem but we can't ignore it any longer.  His defense isn't good enough to tolerate his terrible offense and free throws shooting. 28 points in the paint in the 1st quarter of a playoff game when the other team is missing their star player should never happen. And if it does, changes are need to your front court!

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I understand what you’re saying but I still feel my point is being missed. In today’s era with all this small ball Capela is the perfect center to have as well as Okungwu type.

But of course as we both know there’s teams that still use big centers like Philly and the bucks obviously….in terms of what center is needed depends solely on the matchups in my opinion.

Vs teams like the Celtics who normally always have a smaller center , Miami Heat (Bam isn’t a big guy at all), and most other teams in the east ….Capela is who we want!

The issue to me is making a decision based on one or two teams…NOW I do think we need to add a bigger center for depth purposes and it’s my number one priority this off season I want to see schlenk get done but I don’t want to see rash decisions made and we don’t run into a 76ers or Bucks team in the playoffs next season.

I do understand it’s a high chance we do run into one of those teams by the semifinals or conference finals shall we move through the playoffs again however….unless there’s a do it all center with size that actually becomes available I don’t see many options for us to improve this issue this off season. Best option to me is get Capela another big behind him that can stop some of the easy ass baskets against us.

So how do you handle the roster issue?  You have OO on a rookie deal.  You have Clint on a big contract.  You have Gallo on a big contract. And you have JC, presumably on a big contract.  So let's say they add Robin Lopez.  I would love that move.  But who loses PT during the regular season?  OO is developing into what Capela already is but may end up being an even better version given his offensive versatility.  And he's on a cheaper contract. 

Do you sign Lopez with the understanding that he's just not going to play much during the regular season?  He avg 19 min/gm this year. Capela avg 30. OO avg 12.  Do you cut Clint's min?  Play OO at the 4 and cut Gallo's?  

 

30 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

That's just it though - matchup shows flaws in the playoffs. Losing teams have to adjust but you can't just throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I don't think anyone is suggesting throwing Clint out.  It would have to be a move that makes the Hawks better in the playoffs or it doesn't make sense.  

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

However, what the last 6 weeks has shown me is that in the playoffs he gets overpowered on defense against larger bigs, he gets lost too much on the boards as other teams are collectively crashing and he's no longer just fighting centers but also guys like Pat Connaughton and PJ Tucker, and offensively, he just doesn't have any attribute that translates consistently to the playoffs where - as you pointed out - games are played predominantly in the half-court.   

So I've just downgraded him in my mind from an invaluable piece on a playoff run to a guy that is probably close to invaluable in the regular season to get to the playoffs, but once there, is more of a matchup guy that may or may not have a role.  

Here's is where I have the problem.  You want to downgrade him because he was locked up in a 7 game series with Embiid and a 6 game series with Giannis and Lopez with Portis.

That's 1 MVP, 1 MVP should have been, and 2 guys greater than 6'10 and one of those was a franchise player.   You have to look at the matchup and be honest about the matchup...  Who could we have had in this league that would have faired better playing in our system?

The elephant in the room is that CC had to do a lot of backing up of Trae.   On defense, everybody knows Trae is a liability.   So when Milwaukee  switches off  Tucker for Holiday and Trae is no longer guarding the spot up shooter Tucker and Holiday is off to the races... who do you think has to cover Holiday's drive?   Yeah, you tell Trae to stick with Tucker on the PNR but guess what, Holiday's man (Bogi or KaVon) still gets picked... who has to step up and offer defensive help?

Our defense had too many holes...  But all the blame goes to CC because he couldn't contain a 7footer.

Nah... give us some help get our defensive wings back and let's run it back.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I feel that if we played another team in the playoffs not named Philly or Bucks this likely wouldn’t even come up as an issue even if it truly was one still.

i wish I knew how to look up my old post because I mentioned all of this before. Not trying to put out a “I told you so” post but it is what it is.

as far as Capela goes with the bunnies he just need to dunk that shit simple as that . The bunnies seem to be yet another issue vs bigger centers than it is vs most teams…..anyways What I’d rather Capela focus on this off season is strengthening his lower body in a BIG way so he isn’t moved so easy on the low block. I don’t recall who pointed it out on these boards but Capela was being backed down too easy vs Embiid though Embiid is elite even Gallo wasn’t moving that easy on the low block when Embiid tried posting him up. Capela get stronger in leg and lower part that alone will probably be his biggest improvement to stop guys bigger than him 

part of the dunk shit issue is that he's asked to dunk shit while people are undercutting him.   I noticed this with NY and again with Milwaukee.  Milwaukee's Portis and Tucker are dirty players who stopped our lobs by Walking under our bigs while they were in the air.  "Accidentally".....Refs not willing to call these accidents were a big part of the problem because you see it.  On a couple of occassions, JC took one for the team I guess to see if the refs would call it... They didn't. 

[Diesel]

18 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

So how do you handle the roster issue?  You have OO on a rookie deal.  You have Clint on a big contract.  You have Gallo on a big contract. And you have JC, presumably on a big contract.  So let's say they add Robin Lopez.  I would love that move.  But who loses PT during the regular season?  OO is developing into what Capela already is but may end up being an even better version given his offensive versatility.  And he's on a cheaper contract. 

Do you sign Lopez with the understanding that he's just not going to play much during the regular season?  He avg 19 min/gm this year. Capela avg 30. OO avg 12.  Do you cut Clint's min?  Play OO at the 4 and cut Gallo's?  

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting throwing Clint out.  It would have to be a move that makes the Hawks better in the playoffs or it doesn't make sense.  

We have to come in with the understanding that the PF/C position will be by platoon.   Gallo minutes are not a problem.  OO should be fed more minutes.   IF we were to bring in a third C big like Lopez, he plays primarily C.   I think OO should play mostly C but you can definitely give him some PF minutes too. 

In the future, OO & JC (if we keep him) will be our starting 5 and 4.   But that future is not next year.  It may even be a place where as CC gets older, if we don't move him, his next contract can be a vet Journeyman's contract where he knows he is backing up OO. 

[RandomFan]

I don't know where this idea came from that Capela is a small ball, mobile, switchable center defender, but that most certainly is NOT true. One of the well known knocks on Capela is you are relegated to playing a drop coverage scheme with him because he is not able to switch and guard perimeter players effectively enough -- to be fair, very few centers are, which is one of the reasons Big O is so highly valued. 

He's a traditional drop scheme center, just not a 7 footer. He makes up for that with better athleticism and more straight line speed than most 7 footers he plays against. And he's absolutely getting crapped on by people with recency bias from two very difficult matchups in the playoffs. Doesn't seem that long ago people were upset he only finished 6th in DPOY voting. 

You'll notice in Solo's end of season interview when asked what the team needed to do better next year, one of his answers was that more people needed to step up and join Cap as a vocal defensive anchor. (Notice nothing was said about Cap needing to be better; it was that other people needed to step up and match him). 

But not to fret, Big O will be replacing him in the starting lineup at some point soon. Then the people that want more size at center can be *really* big mad. As long as Okongwu makes the expected jump in year 2, don't be surprised if Capela has to miss any time with an injury, when he comes back he might not get his starting job back. That's not a knock on Capela, that's just a bouquet for Big O. 

[JayBirdHawk]

Public Service Announcement:

Clint Capela is now eligible for a contract extension having completed year 3 of his original 5 year deal.

[Peoriabird]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

The elephant in the room is that CC had to do a lot of backing up of Trae.   On defense, everybody knows Trae is a liability.   So when Milwaukee  switches off  Tucker for Holiday and Trae is no longer guarding the spot up shooter Tucker and Holiday is off to the races... who do you think has to cover Holiday's drive?   Yeah, you tell Trae to stick with Tucker on the PNR but guess what, Holiday's man (Bogi or KaVon) still gets picked... who has to step up and offer defensive help?

 

The Hawk's worst defensive effort against the Bucks came in game 5 where they gave up 28 points in the paint in the 1st quarter and 33 points to a man that has never scored 30 points in a playoff game before. Trae didn't even play in that game.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

The Hawks worst defensive effort against the Bucks came in game 5 where they gave up 28 points in the paint in the 1st quarter and 33 points to a man that has never scored 30 points in a playoff game before. Trae didn't even play in that game.

Same thing... When Jrue Holiday was beating Bogi and K'Von off the pick and roll, and CC would step up to stop the drive and JC would move over or Gallo wouldn't move over... what did you expect from Lopez???  7'0 former franchise player that still has something left in the tank...  being fronted by a 6'9 PF..

or Maybe this:

 

 

Or maybe this one... Clint wasn't on the floor but OO feel into the same trap...

[AHF]

Capela isn't an all-world defender but I don't think we can afford one.  Cap will make $17M and $18M the next two years and he is a great value at that price.

Stud defenders at center cost more like:

Gobert $35M and $38M the next two years

Embiid $31.6M and $33.6M the next two years

Bam $28M and $30.4M the next two years

 

We are going to be resigning our young guys and sucking up our cap room the next couple years so having a strong player at that price even with his flaws is a big asset to this team.  I think our defense with Cam and Hunter on the floor will see a big upgrade next year and that will help Capela be effective as he will have to do less to cover for others than he did during the playoffs this year.

He isn't untouchable but I have a hard time seeing where we would go that would be a better fit than our 26 year old center.  Everyone other than the few elite guys is flawed.

Myles Turner is a great shot blocker but limited offensively and averages like 6.5 rebounds per game.  Nelens Noel makes Cap look like an offensive sauvante and averages half the rebounds.  Kanter, Vucevic and Jokic can all rebound exceptionally well but all are weaker defenders and block like 1/3 of the shots that Cap does.  

Any viable alternative to Capela is going to come with their own significant limitations, baggage and many come with a higher price point.  I was thrilled when TS made the trade and thought we robbed the Rockets.  I still think that.  With OO coming online and continuing to develop, I'm pretty jazzed about those two being our tandem next year.  They won't excel in every matchup but focusing on how Cap does vs Embiid is like crapping on Malcom Brogdon because he can't keep up with Trae.  We know we aren't going to get someone who wins the matchup with Embiid.  We just have to do enough and have enough on the rest of the roster to make up for it.  It is how the Bulls beat teams starting Luc Longley, Bill Cartright, etc. when they faced Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc.  They obviously got crushed in those specific matchups but they had enough elsewhere to win the series (often in convincing fashion).  I think we are going to be much better off with Cap and OO but if we achieve greatness it will be on the back of Trae and our swath of wings continuing to improve, imo.  And I don't have a problem with that.

I guess I'd like to see specific, realistic proposals from the people who think we need to make a change (i.e., we need to move on from Cap) to upgrade our center position.  That way, we can have a specific discussion around what our team would look like with Robin Lopez or whoever starting inside for us in place of Cap.

[ATLHawks3]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Capela isn't an all-world defender but I don't think we can afford one.  Cap will make $17M and $18M the next two years and he is a great value at that price.

Stud defenders at center cost more like:

Gobert $35M and $38M the next two years

Embiid $31.6M and $33.6M the next two years

Bam $28M and $30.4M the next two years

 

We are going to be resigning our young guys and sucking up our cap room the next couple years so having a strong player at that price even with his flaws is a big asset to this team.  I think our defense with Cam and Hunter on the floor will see a big upgrade next year and that will help Capela be effective as he will have to do less to cover for others than he did during the playoffs this year.

He isn't untouchable but I have a hard time seeing where we would go that would be a better fit than our 26 year old center.  Everyone other than the few elite guys is flawed.

Myles Turner is a great shot blocker but limited offensively and averages like 6.5 rebounds per game.  Nelens Noel makes Cap look like an offensive sauvante and averages half the rebounds.  Kanter, Vucevic and Jokic can all rebound exceptionally well but all are weaker defenders and block like 1/3 of the shots that Cap does.  

Any viable alternative to Capela is going to come with their own significant limitations, baggage and many come with a higher price point.  I was thrilled when TS made the trade and thought we robbed the Rockets.  I still think that.  With OO coming online and continuing to develop, I'm pretty jazzed about those two being our tandem next year.  They won't excel in every matchup but focusing on how Cap does vs Embiid is like crapping on Malcom Brogdon because he can't keep up with Trae.  We know we aren't going to get someone who wins the matchup with Embiid.  We just have to do enough and have enough on the rest of the roster to make up for it.  It is how the Bulls beat teams starting Luc Longley, Bill Cartright, etc. when they faced Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc.  They obviously got crushed in those specific matchups but they had enough elsewhere to win the series (often in convincing fashion).  I think we are going to be much better off with Cap and OO but if we achieve greatness it will be on the back of Trae and our swath of wings continuing to improve, imo.  And I don't have a problem with that.

I guess I'd like to see specific, realistic proposals from the people who think we need to make a change (i.e., we need to move on from Cap) to upgrade our center position.  That way, we can have a specific discussion around what our team would look like with Robin Lopez or whoever starting inside for us in place of Cap.

The Hawks need to be really invested into his offensive development this Summer. And I'm not talking about him expanding his range (at least improve his free throw shooting), but him improving his post game, footwork, hands, etc.

Edited July 6, 2021 by ATLHawks3

[macdaddy]

OO will be our starting center soon enough.   Maybe even by mid next season.  Capela's deal isn't that bad for a really good backup.   He was at the same time critical to our playoff success but also a liability at times.   All those missed bunnies, missed free throws and rushed shots are just turnovers and he had a ton of them.   That plus not being able to get rebounds against Embiid and Lopez was disheartening.  

To me we have the center position locked up assuming good health.

[RandomFan]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

Capela isn't an all-world defender but I don't think we can afford one.  Cap will make $17M and $18M the next two years and he is a great value at that price.

Stud defenders at center cost more like:

Gobert $35M and $38M the next two years

Embiid $31.6M and $33.6M the next two years

Bam $28M and $30.4M the next two years

 

We are going to be resigning our young guys and sucking up our cap room the next couple years so having a strong player at that price even with his flaws is a big asset to this team.  I think our defense with Cam and Hunter on the floor will see a big upgrade next year and that will help Capela be effective as he will have to do less to cover for others than he did during the playoffs this year.

He isn't untouchable but I have a hard time seeing where we would go that would be a better fit than our 26 year old center.  Everyone other than the few elite guys is flawed.

Myles Turner is a great shot blocker but limited offensively and averages like 6.5 rebounds per game.  Nelens Noel makes Cap look like an offensive sauvante and averages half the rebounds.  Kanter, Vucevic and Jokic can all rebound exceptionally well but all are weaker defenders and block like 1/3 of the shots that Cap does.  

Any viable alternative to Capela is going to come with their own significant limitations, baggage and many come with a higher price point.  I was thrilled when TS made the trade and thought we robbed the Rockets.  I still think that.  With OO coming online and continuing to develop, I'm pretty jazzed about those two being our tandem next year.  They won't excel in every matchup but focusing on how Cap does vs Embiid is like crapping on Malcom Brogdon because he can't keep up with Trae.  We know we aren't going to get someone who wins the matchup with Embiid.  We just have to do enough and have enough on the rest of the roster to make up for it.  It is how the Bulls beat teams starting Luc Longley, Bill Cartright, etc. when they faced Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc.  They obviously got crushed in those specific matchups but they had enough elsewhere to win the series (often in convincing fashion).  I think we are going to be much better off with Cap and OO but if we achieve greatness it will be on the back of Trae and our swath of wings continuing to improve, imo.  And I don't have a problem with that.

I guess I'd like to see specific, realistic proposals from the people who think we need to make a change (i.e., we need to move on from Cap) to upgrade our center position.  That way, we can have a specific discussion around what our team would look like with Robin Lopez or whoever starting inside for us in place of Cap.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Capela isn't an all-world defender but I don't think we can afford one.  Cap will make $17M and $18M the next two years and he is a great value at that price.

Stud defenders at center cost more like:

Gobert $35M and $38M the next two years

Embiid $31.6M and $33.6M the next two years

Bam $28M and $30.4M the next two years

 

We are going to be resigning our young guys and sucking up our cap room the next couple years so having a strong player at that price even with his flaws is a big asset to this team.  I think our defense with Cam and Hunter on the floor will see a big upgrade next year and that will help Capela be effective as he will have to do less to cover for others than he did during the playoffs this year.

He isn't untouchable but I have a hard time seeing where we would go that would be a better fit than our 26 year old center.  Everyone other than the few elite guys is flawed.

Myles Turner is a great shot blocker but limited offensively and averages like 6.5 rebounds per game.  Nelens Noel makes Cap look like an offensive sauvante and averages half the rebounds.  Kanter, Vucevic and Jokic can all rebound exceptionally well but all are weaker defenders and block like 1/3 of the shots that Cap does.  

Any viable alternative to Capela is going to come with their own significant limitations, baggage and many come with a higher price point.  I was thrilled when TS made the trade and thought we robbed the Rockets.  I still think that.  With OO coming online and continuing to develop, I'm pretty jazzed about those two being our tandem next year.  They won't excel in every matchup but focusing on how Cap does vs Embiid is like crapping on Malcom Brogdon because he can't keep up with Trae.  We know we aren't going to get someone who wins the matchup with Embiid.  We just have to do enough and have enough on the rest of the roster to make up for it.  It is how the Bulls beat teams starting Luc Longley, Bill Cartright, etc. when they faced Ewing, Mourning, Shaq, etc.  They obviously got crushed in those specific matchups but they had enough elsewhere to win the series (often in convincing fashion).  I think we are going to be much better off with Cap and OO but if we achieve greatness it will be on the back of Trae and our swath of wings continuing to improve, imo.  And I don't have a problem with that.

  That way, we can have a specific discussion around what our team would look like with Robin Lopez or whoever starting inside for us in place of Cap.

 

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I guess I'd like to see specific, realistic proposals from the people who think we need to make a change (i.e., we need to move on from Cap) to upgrade our center position. 

Good Luck with that.