Welcome to Atlanta, Sharife Cooper

[marco102]

Just now, sturt said:

We are talking about 14th and 15th roster posts.  Playing time generally doesn't matter for those players unless something is crazy.  If we put Mays on a two way contract we have 2 roster spots open.  We can leave one open, but we can sign Lou and Sap. If they are signing here, they'd understand their playing time is most likely very limited. 

 

[sturt]

15 roster slots

divided by 5 positions

= 3 per position

 

This is the conventional wisdom.

Not saying it never happens that GMs modify that in some way. (Schlenk went last season with 5 bigs plus Hill, for the record.) But it is the common sense starting point.

 

What's more, when you have not just Hill but also Dre that plays some PF, you're thoroughly covered since Capela, Collins and Dieng are going to eat up the minutes at 5 while OO is rehabbing.

[marco102]

Just now, Peoriabird said:

There is no reason to have Lou on the team.  May's deserves his shot.  He has played well enough to garner the respect of the organization rather that being treated worse than scrubs like Brandon Goodwin or Bruno.

A two-way contract is getting a shot. Has Mays done more to win games than Goodwin? I didn't see Mays starting too many games last year and contributing to getting wins.  That's not a shot at Mays. It just shocks me how you believe the 15th player is going to make such a big difference. I'm for having as many quality vets on the team and Mays. It's a win win in my book. 

The reason to keep Lou on the team is he can still win you a quarter or two when he has it going.  The Hawks don't need Williams to do that at this point, but that's good to have in an end of the bench guy.  Plus,  I value Lou's leadership more than you.  He'd be a great mentor to have for Cooper. That's also why I appreciate bringing Millsap back. He'd be great for the locker room and grooming Jalen Johnson.  

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, sturt said:

15 roster slots

divided by 5 positions

= 3 per position

 

This is the conventional wisdom.

Not saying it never happens that GMs modify that in some way. But it is the common sense starting point.

 

What's more, when you have not just Hill but also Dre that plays some PF, you're thoroughly covered since Capela, Collins and Dieng are going to eat up the minutes at 5 while OO is rehabbing.

See my response above. It's not about their on court play, but their locker room roles and having that with our team. 

[Peoriabird]

Just now, marco102 said:

 

The reason to keep Lou on the team is he can still win you a quarter or two when he has it going. 

This is such a fallacy. Heck Nathan Knight won the Hawks a couple games so does that make him valuable or must resign?

[mrhonline]

Mays is underrated on here, imho.

He is not flashy or across-the-board athletic, but he is a lot like Wright in that he can truly play both guard positions.  At the end of the roster, that's great value.

I've seen enough that I'd go ahead and give him a deal (with non-guaranteed $ throughout), but if he'll take a two-way again, that's an absolute no-brainer.

[RedDawg#8]

I thought we already offered Mays?

https://soaringdownsouth.com/2021/08/02/atlanta-hawks-impact-qualifying-offer-skylar-mays/

[mrhonline]

That QO forces other teams to offer *more than* a two-way to get Mays.

Unless he destroys the summer league, I don't see it happening.

[marco102]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

This is such a fallacy. Heck Nathan Knight won the Hawks a couple games so does that make him valuable or must resign?

See Lou Williams in the Philly series for your fallacy. He contributed to two wins with his scoring and playmaking ability. 

Nathan Knight doesn't offer veteran leadership. Again, I've stated that you do not value veteran leadership the same as me and that's fine.  That's why I want Lou back on the team. He's not a must have, just something I'd appreciate. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by marco102

[Peoriabird]

On 8/5/2021 at 11:15 AM, marco102 said:

See Lou Williams in the Philly series for your fallacy. He contributed to two wins with his scoring and playmaking ability. 

Again, Nathan Knight doesn't offer veteran leadership. Again, I've stated that you do not value veteran leadership the same as me and that's fine.  That's why I want Lou back on the team. He's not a must have, just something I'd appreciate. 

Lou was otherwise very bad and his numbers bore it out especially during the regular season. He won't play anyway because Wright is the back up point guard so I don't see him contributing on the floor at all.  This fan base constantly talks about vet leadership BS. Vince and a bunch of vets were on the team for 2 years prior to this past year and guess what, the team didn't start improving until those vet players left.

[marco102]

16 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Lou was otherwise very bad and his number bore it out especially during the regular season. He won't play anyway because Wright is the back up point guard so I don't see him contributing on the floor at all.  This fan base constantly talks about vet leadership BS. Vince and a bunch of very were on the team for 2 years prior to this past year and guess what, the team didn't start improving until those vet players left.

Or the team improved because they brought in Bogi, Gallo, Lou,  and Hill.  All veterans. 

I said Lou could win you a quarter or two and you came back and said that's a fallacy and Lou had to be signed.  That's not what I'm saying at all, I'm just saying if you can have all of them, why not do it? It makes the Hawks better situationally.

[sturt]

Lou had his good games. And his bad ones.

Don't really expect any different from the 3rd PG, though. In fact, just having the potential for some really really good games from your 3rd PG is not something most teams get to enjoy.

The real question is more about his contract, not whether we should want him to be our 3rd PG (or, perhaps, 3rd SG for that matter).

[Peoriabird]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

I'm just saying if you can have all of them, why not do it? It makes the Hawks better situationally.

Not really. You and others value Lou's contribution way more than me and the rest of the league. The fact is that Lou lost far more quarters than he won and he just cannot run an offense.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[AHF]

On 8/5/2021 at 10:33 AM, mrhonline said:

Hmm. Not sure people understand that two-way contracts heavily favor the team.

If Cooper plays really well, the Hawks have the option to convert him to the deal everyone wants. They can also choose to make him an RFA like they did with Mays.

They hold virtually all the leverage. 

The two-way contract is a maximum of one or two years in length and can be converted if the team has a roster spot.  A player under a two-way deal can play up to 45 days on the NBA roster in a season.  He then becomes a RFA at the end of his two-way contract if he was called up for at least 15 days during the prior year and after that deal becomes an UFA.  

The team can also sign him to a new contract to replace the two-way contract if Cooper is willing to do that.  If they simply convert his two-way contract, the Hawks will not have bird rights on him but he will be a RFA at the end as per the above assuming he has played 15 days with the team.  If they sign him to a new contract for 3+ years instead of converting him, they will get bird rights on him as the time spent on a two-way deal counts towards bird rights.  

Example 1:

Cooper signs a 1 year two-way deal

Halfway through the season, Atlanta gets rid of Lou to clear a roster spot and converts the contract.  At the end of the year, Cooper is a RFA and Atlanta doesn't have Bird rights.  If he resigns with us on a new 3 year deal, when that ends we will have bird rights but he will be an UFA.

Example 2:

Cooper signs a 2 year two-way deal

Atlanta chooses to leave Cooper in the G-League all year.  Next year, they can bring him up on the two-way, convert the last year of the two-way deal or keep him in the G-League.  If Atlanta brings him up for less than 15 days, he is an UFA at the end of the year.  If he was up for 15+ days, he becomes a RFA without Bird rights.

Example 3:

Cooper signs a 2 year two-way deal

At some point during this deal, Atlanta offers and Cooper accepts a deal running through 2023-24.  At the end of this new agreement, Cooper becomes a RFA and the Hawks have Bird rights.

 

During the term of his two-way deal, no other team can sign him so he is definitely incented to sign up to a new deal on the 15 man roster if Atlanta offers one.  It is definitely not the end of the world for those concerned about retaining Cooper long-term.  The biggest risk is the lack of Bird rights if the team doesn't sign him to a new deal and instead simply converts his two-way contract.

I would have been more than fine simply signing Cooper to a standard deal but that may speak to me being overly enthusiastic about his ability to contribute at some point this year compared to TS's assessment.  TS should have earned out trust on this so I'm good with whatever way he wanted to go.

[hazer]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

I would have been more than fine simply signing Cooper to a standard deal but that may speak to me being overly enthusiastic about his ability to contribute at some point this year compared to TS's assessment.  TS should have earned out trust on this so I'm good with whatever way he wanted to go.

Did I write this?

I will add, standing firm on this and doubling down, Coop will work himself into 3rd PG fairly quickly and be challenging Delon for the backup role before season’s end.

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

If they simply convert his two-way contract, the Hawks will not have bird rights on him but he will be a RFA at the end

The Hawks can convert and extend his contract into a 3 or 4 year NBA deal - See Lu Dort's contract.

[RedDawg#8]

I still can't believe we got this kid at 48. He is a natural leader and is going to be a great piece for us in the very near future. Him learning from Trae on the court and Lou and Solo off of it. Man, beast in training. Look out 

 

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I still can't believe we got this kid at 48. He is a natural leader and is going to be a great piece for us in the very near future. Him learning from Trae on the court and Lou and Solo off of it. Man, beast in training. Look out 

 

I just got done watching this and was coming to post!  I'm really excited to see his play in summer league.  I know you can't take too much from summer league, but I believe his playmaking and ability to run the offense will sine and make me even more excited about his future as the backup point guard.

[sturt]