Welcome to Atlanta - Jarrett Culver

[Gray Mule]

Why did he sign this contract?  My guess:  He wanted to be a Hawk.

Why did we offer this contract?  My guess:  It's a very cheap way to find out if there is any real value there.  If he becomes a winner here - - This is great!  If he doesn't? - - So what.  No big loss.

In my opinion, this is a great deal for both parties.  He has to know that his NBA career is on the line.  He must produce or lose his opportunity.  I must believe.  History reveals that he didn't really produce at the rate that his draft position would indicate.  

All the things that resulted in his being taken where he was in the draft should still be available.  He did have an injury after he was drafted.  He's had time to heal.  Falcons have several veteran players on "prove it" contracts.  The Hawks now have a similar contract.

Travis, you've did it again!  

[JayBirdHawk]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

Yeah...

June 25, 2015: Drafted by the Chicago Bulls in the 1st round (22nd pick) of the 2015 NBA Draft.

July 7, 2015: Signed a multi-year contract with the Chicago Bulls.

January 6, 2017: Assigned to the Windy City Bulls of the G-League.

January 7, 2017: Recalled from the Windy City Bulls of the G-League.

December 4, 2018: Assigned to the Windy City Bulls of the G-League.

February 6, 2019: Traded by the Chicago Bulls with Jabari Parker and a 2023 2nd round draft pick to the Washington Wizards for Otto Porter. (Protections removed in trade on 7/7/19)

 

This is why I wanted to sign Portis.   A guy who had to scrap to get back in the league appreciates his place in it and works hard. 

Portis played 1 game in the GLeague n 2017 and 1 game in 2018 - probably coming off an injury. That is not NOTABLE  in terms of being in the GLeague at all.

[JayBirdHawk]

9 hours ago, sturt said:

This acquisition has grown on me as the day progressed... in a positive way, that is.

And it's mainly because Schlields somehow someway persuaded Culver to sign a 2-way deal, when surely Culver's agent wanted a regular contract even if it was non-guaranteed.

Think about that.

You control Culver for the entire regular season, and you're not paying him even a regular salary, and you still have that 15th roster slot open for other opportunities that could still surface.

He's obviously not been the asset that one would have anticipated, but he's also not been so terrible that you'd think he couldn't get a non-guaranteed deal for one of the teams that still have to make some decisions about the end of their bench... or, certainly he should have been getting some decent overseas offers.

Have you watched Culver's defensive highlights? A few of us were begging for the Hawks to make a deal w/ OKC for Dort. Well, we just got a Dort with 2-3 inches more height, and arms reminiscent of Plasticman... yes, the twin of Stacey Augmon, folks, is now in the barn.

Mind you, we do have too many wings. We do have too many PGs when you count the other 2-way, Forrest. This wasn't a pick-up based on need at a position. This was a pick-up based on the special opportunity it presents.

Can't imagine we've ever had a 2-way signing in which the player's ceiling was at Culver's level.

The way I see it:

He is a player with 'NBA EXPERIENCE' that's not on an NBA contract that can be 1. called up in a pinch (Bogi or AJ injuries?) 2. In case One of JHol or Harkless is moved to get below the tax line at the trade deadline and he's converted to an NBA contract, 3. It's a wing league, I don't think you can have too many, particularly if he's the defender he's supposed to be.

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

particularly if he's the defender he's supposed to be.

Oh he most certainly is, that’s why I’m having him in my top 7 in the draft this year…

Wait, where am I? What year is this?

 

2019 flashback ‍ 

[NBASupes]

5 hours ago, JTB said:

Reading these comments are very interesting considering he started his career with the TWolves!

say what you want but high and low draft picks go to teams like Sacramento and Minny to basically rot and fail 

culver needs benefit of the doubt and to see how a winning team works. He may find something here that works for him or become very motivated by McMillan. We shall see.

He was just on one in Memphis. His issue was what I said it was in the draft. Players he compared favorably to in college were 15 to 20 pounds bigger at that stage than he was. Playing bully ball is never going to work in the NBA if you don't have the bully size. 

[AHF]

5 hours ago, JTB said:

Reading these comments are very interesting considering he started his career with the TWolves!

say what you want but high and low draft picks go to teams like Sacramento and Minny to basically rot and fail 

culver needs benefit of the doubt and to see how a winning team works. He may find something here that works for him or become very motivated by McMillan. We shall see.

I'm not seeing the non-Culver Minnesota lottery picks as being a list of people who rotted and failed:

Anthony Edwards

Kris Dunn

Karl Anthony-Towns

Anthony Wiggins

Zach LaVine

Ricky Rubio

 

Kris Dunn can be called a failure but the rest have had between pretty good and outstanding careers to date.

[terrell]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm not seeing the non-Culver Minnesota lottery picks as being a list of people who rotted and failed:

Anthony Edwards

Kris Dunn

Karl Anthony-Towns

Anthony Wiggins

Zach LaVine

Ricky Rubio

 

Kris Dunn can be called a failure but the rest have had between pretty good and outstanding careers to date.

Edwards and KAT yeah, but what did the others do in Minn?

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, terrell said:

Edwards and KAT yeah, but what did the others do in Minn?

Wiggins averaged roughly 20 ppg, 4 rpg and 2 apg

LaVine's last season there he average 19 points on .459% FG%, .387% 3pt% to go with 3.4 rebounds, 3 assists and 1 steal a game

Rubio averaged over 10 ppg to go with 8-9 assists and 4-5 rebounds per game

 

All of those are solid to excellent numbers.  Definitely not total failures by any measure.

Notably, all of them made the All-Rookie team and Wiggins was ROY as well.

 

[sturt]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

He is a player with 'NBA EXPERIENCE' that's not on an NBA contract that can be 1. called up in a pinch (Bogi or AJ injuries?) 2. In case One of JHol or Harkless is moved to get below the tax line at the trade deadline and he's converted to an NBA contract, 3. It's a wing league, I don't think you can have too many, particularly if he's the defender he's supposed to be.

Aside...

Nah. You can have too many wings. You can have too many of any position.

I'll acknowledge, otoh, Schlenk's demonstrated a preference these last couple of years to go with 5 legit bigs instead 3 legit Cs and 3 legit PFs as has been more conventional. MIA's 2020 team was what apparently persuaded him to embrace that. I personally am hoping that his exit interview acknowledgement that MIA's 2022 team featured "very physical, big defenders" could signal a willingness to re-embrace 3 legit PFs.

Highly doubtful, tho. Fields said after acquiring Mo that he's considered a 4.

*sigh*

 

Back to Culver himself...

Many of the great NBA champs have featured a defense-first wing. Recently, I'd been advocating for obtaining David Nwaba from HOU partially if not mostly for that reason.

But it's one thing to devote a 15-man slot to that guy. It's pretty excellent to be able to have that guy on a 2-way that allows you the luxury to play him in G-League for chunks of the early season, then have him available for the entirety of the late season to deploy as seems advantageous... and... if he performs well, to convert his 2-way to a normal contract for the post-season.

[Spud2nique]

17 minutes ago, sturt said:

Recently, I'd been advocating for obtaining David Nwaba from HOU partially if not mostly for that reason.

Like this cat a lot. Seems everywhere he goes he elevates the team as far as “playing hard”.. the Bulls..the Rockets his last stop where I saw a lot of team D from him. Dude goes all out with efficient maximum effort. Yes, I’m a fan. 
 

CCCK #CamCulverClarkeKabengele #spud2019draft #wegot2now #welcomeJCII

[Atlantaholic]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

Wiggins averaged roughly 20 ppg, 4 rpg and 2 apg

LaVine's last season there he average 19 points on .459% FG%, .387% 3pt% to go with 3.4 rebounds, 3 assists and 1 steal a game

Rubio averaged over 10 ppg to go with 8-9 assists and 4-5 rebounds per game

 

All of those are solid to excellent numbers.  Definitely not total failures by any measure.

Notably, all of them made the All-Rookie team and Wiggins was ROY as well.

 

But more to the point of this thread, none had a negative everything and TS% of 46 after three seasons. Saying Culver's failures are due to Minny is a stretch. He just wasn't any good, and he could have played in Golden State and it wouldn't have improved his numbers. Now, can he turn it around? He is young, he still has upside, but damn it would be a historic turnaround if he became a solid rotation piece considering what he's done up to this point.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

But more to the point of this thread, none had a negative everything and TS% of 46 after three seasons. Saying Culver's failures are due to Minny is a stretch. He just wasn't any good, and he could have played in Golden State and it wouldn't have improved his numbers. Now, can he turn it around? He is young, he still has upside, but damn it would be a historic turnaround if he became a solid rotation piece considering what he's done up to this point.

Yeah.  I was just saying that Minnesota isn't a place where everyone who goes there is doomed to failure.  Even if they didn't do Culver any favors, he had a shot to make his mark in Memphis and in workouts for teams and nobody was remotely interested.  That is how you get a two-way contract after being a lottery pick - every team (including Atlanta) writes you off as being unworthy of even an unguaranteed contract.  That isn't Minnesota's fault.

Doesn't mean Culver can't make a comeback or can't improve but he owns just how low the bar has been set for him, not Minnesota.  Signing a two-way deal is really remarkable.

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, sturt said:

As for evaluating the trade, it's been a little too easy for some to ignore that Cam's development has been severely stunted for the last two (of 3) seasons he's played. Since he got hurt in late Feb 2021, Cam's played in just 53 of 140 possible games... about 38%.

 

On 9/12/2022 at 10:26 PM, sturt said:

Strongly disagree that Cam's a bust. He's a victim of a really bad situation where the head coach and GM were not on the same page, and he's paid the price then of the old adage, "Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it." He's barely played since he left ATL. It would be different if he'd gotten to NYK and was given a legitimate shot at the rotation, and only fell out of favor after a half season or so of games. Sometimes it's more about the coach and his system than it is about the player's capabilities. Don't misread... he still obviously has something to prove, just as he had something to prove when he left here. But until he actually receives a legit opportunity to do that, I consider him a prisoner awaiting the end of his sentence, and maybe just that much more motivated when he finally gets out. And maybe this break, too, allows his body time to reinvigorate so that he doesn't experience the health struggles he did while in ATL.

What I find intriguing between Cam (133 games) and Culver (134 games) is how similarly their first 3 years mirror each other.  

Year 1: Mixed bag rookie season (that freethrow shooting percentage for Culver )

Per 36 Minutes

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Jarrett Culver	2019-20	20	63	35	1506	5.5	13.6	.404	1.6	5.3	.299	3.9	8.3	.471	1.3	2.8	.462	1.7	3.4	5.1	2.6	1.4	0.9	1.9	3.0	13.9
2	Cam Reddish	2019-20	20	58	34	1551	4.9	12.9	.384	1.9	5.8	.332	3.0	7.1	.428	2.3	2.9	.802	0.8	4.2	5.0	2.0	1.4	0.6	2.2	3.1	14.2

 

Year 2:  Both an injury plagued second seasons Cam with the Achilles injury, Culver with an ankle injury that eventually required surgery.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Jarrett Culver	2020-21	21	34	7	499	5.0	12.1	.411	0.9	3.8	.245	4.0	8.3	.487	2.1	3.5	.604	2.5	5.1	7.5	1.7	1.2	0.6	2.0	4.2	13.0
2	Cam Reddish	2020-21	21	26	21	750	4.6	12.6	.365	1.6	6.0	.262	3.0	6.6	.460	3.2	3.9	.817	1.1	3.9	5.0	1.7	1.6	0.4	1.6	3.3	14.0

 

Year 3: Both ended up on different teams - Culver trade in the offseason, Cam trade mid season - both struggled to find playing time for their new teams for varying reasons.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Jarrett Culver	2021-22	22	37	0	338	5.4	14.4	.378	1.3	5.0	.255	4.2	9.4	.443	1.7	3.6	.471	1.4	3.7	5.1	3.5	2.1	0.5	2.1	4.5	13.8
2	Cam Reddish	2021-22	22	49	7	1012	5.9	14.5	.404	2.3	6.5	.359	3.5	8.0	.442	3.6	4.0	.902	0.9	2.8	3.7	1.7	1.7	0.5	2.0	2.1	17.7

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

What I find intriguing between Cam (133 games) and Culver (134 games) is how similarly their first 3 years mirror each other.  

Year 1: Mixed bag rookie season (that freethrow shooting percentage for Culver )

Per 36 Minutes

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Jarrett Culver	2019-20	20	63	35	1506	5.5	13.6	.404	1.6	5.3	.299	3.9	8.3	.471	1.3	2.8	.462	1.7	3.4	5.1	2.6	1.4	0.9	1.9	3.0	13.9
2	Cam Reddish	2019-20	20	58	34	1551	4.9	12.9	.384	1.9	5.8	.332	3.0	7.1	.428	2.3	2.9	.802	0.8	4.2	5.0	2.0	1.4	0.6	2.2	3.1	14.2

 

Year 2:  Both an injury plagued second seasons Cam with the Achilles injury, Culver with an ankle injury that eventually required surgery.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Jarrett Culver	2020-21	21	34	7	499	5.0	12.1	.411	0.9	3.8	.245	4.0	8.3	.487	2.1	3.5	.604	2.5	5.1	7.5	1.7	1.2	0.6	2.0	4.2	13.0
2	Cam Reddish	2020-21	21	26	21	750	4.6	12.6	.365	1.6	6.0	.262	3.0	6.6	.460	3.2	3.9	.817	1.1	3.9	5.0	1.7	1.6	0.4	1.6	3.3	14.0

 

Year 3: Both ended up on different teams - Culver trade in the offseason, Cam trade mid season - both struggled to find playing time for their new teams for varying reasons.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Jarrett Culver	2021-22	22	37	0	338	5.4	14.4	.378	1.3	5.0	.255	4.2	9.4	.443	1.7	3.6	.471	1.4	3.7	5.1	3.5	2.1	0.5	2.1	4.5	13.8
2	Cam Reddish	2021-22	22	49	7	1012	5.9	14.5	.404	2.3	6.5	.359	3.5	8.0	.442	3.6	4.0	.902	0.9	2.8	3.7	1.7	1.7	0.5	2.0	2.1	17.7

Begs the question why is Culver ever taking a 3?

[sturt]

About 500 MP vs 750 MP prior season.

About 300 MP vs 1000 MP last season.

It's true. What's plagued Cam has plagued Jarrett worse.

[sturt]

Just now, macdaddy said:

Begs the question why is Culver ever taking a 3?

Right? There are some pitchers with better batting averages than that. Or, were... back when baseball was baseball.

But that FT%.... oh my. Like Jay, that's the part that makes me nauseous. That truly does make him almost unplayable unless he improves.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

20 minutes ago, sturt said:

Right? There are some pitchers with better batting averages than that. Or, were... back when baseball was baseball.

But that FT%.... oh my. Like Jay, that's the part that makes me nauseous. That truly does make him almost unplayable unless he improves.

 

Bruce Browen was also a horrible freethrow shooter but he was able to turn himself into a respectable 3pt shooter to go along with his spectacular defense.

So even if Culver can give us defense he does nothing well enough on offense.

[JTB]

On 9/14/2022 at 9:24 AM, NBASupes said:

He was just on one in Memphis. His issue was what I said it was in the draft. Players he compared favorably to in college were 15 to 20 pounds bigger at that stage than he was. Playing bully ball is never going to work in the NBA if you don't have the bully size. 

I don’t really consider him a bully at the college level. I think the guy just hasn’t found a good role he can flourish in and it may not happen here but at least it’s a low risk high potential type move.

Not saying you are wrong about the bully hall in college but when I think of a player who played bully ball in college I think of Julius Randle type…he was like a minny zbo like player at Kentucky.

[JTB]

On 9/14/2022 at 9:26 AM, AHF said:

I'm not seeing the non-Culver Minnesota lottery picks as being a list of people who rotted and failed:

Anthony Edwards

Kris Dunn

Karl Anthony-Towns

Anthony Wiggins

Zach LaVine

Ricky Rubio

 

Kris Dunn can be called a failure but the rest have had between pretty good and outstanding careers to date.

This is a good list but most are bust. That team has been in the lottery from 2006 -2022 more than they’ve been in the playoffs.

Outside of the KG years I can only remember two playoff appearances which is the thibbs/Butler year and then last season. 
 

you listed 6 average to good players …ok cool but from 2006 - 2022 the list of lottery failures im sure will triumph that list of 6 you have.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

This is a good list but most are bust. That team has been in the lottery from 2006 -2022 more than they’ve been in the playoffs.

Outside of the KG years I can only remember two playoff appearances which is the thibbs/Butler year and then last season. 
 

you listed 6 average to good players …ok cool but from 2006 - 2022 the list of lottery failures im sure will triumph that list of 6 you have.

While I think this goes back to far to be relevant to whether Culver had a fair chance to succeed in Minnesota given the change in management, I'll use your time frame.  Here is the 2006 to 2022 list of top 10 picks.  I am going to classify someone as:

BUST - Washed out of the league

ROTATION - Not starter level but carved out a career including their time in Minnesota

STARTER - Either were starter level in Minnesota or became a consistent starter after having success in Minnesota

STUD - Somewhere better than a mere starter up to All-Star, All-NBA, etc.

2006

Randy Foye - Minnesota Avg:  13 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg - STARTER (started majority of game over first 8 years)

2007

Corey Brewer - 13 Year NBA Career - ROTATION

2008 

Kevin Love - STUD

2009

Johnny Flynn - BUST

2010

Wesley Johnson - ROTATION (started majority of games played over 9 year career but not really starter level)

2011

Rickey Rubio - STARTER

Derrick Williams - BUST

2012

None

2013

None

2014

Andrew Wiggins - STUD (All-Star)

Zach LaVine - STUD (All-Star)

2015 

KAT - STUD (All-NBA)

2016

Kris Dunn - BUST

2017

None

2018

None

2019

Culver - BUST

2020

Anthony Edwards - STUD

2021

None

2022

None

 

I don't think 2006 is particularly relevant to Culver's chances in Minnesota and would limit it to more recent times but let's use your window and see who the busts and non-busts are:

STARTERS/STUDS/ROTATION:

PG:  Ricky Rubio*

SG:  Zach LaVine*, Randy Foye*, Corey Brewer*

SF:  Anthony Edwards*, Andrew Wiggins*, Wesley Johnson

PF: Kevin Love*

C.: Karl Anthony-Towns*

*= All-Rookie Team

 

BUSTS:

PG:  Kris Dunn**, Johnny Flynn

SG: Jarrett Culver

SF: NONE

PF:  Derrick Williams

C.:  NONE

** = If not for health reasons, I think Dunn actually belongs on the top list.  He was a big part of those Bulls teams in Chicago and seemed on track to a long career as at least a rotation guy when we picked him up.  Obviously, the injuries that led us to be able to sign him cheap, though, ravaged his career.

That doesn't look like a situation where Culver's career was destroyed due to being drafted by Minnesota.  In fact, the hit rate seems pretty normal for Minnesota over this period.  It isn't fantastic by any means but they have more people who made the All-Star game on that list than guys who just busted and washed out of the league.   The majority of those guys were All-Rookie and have had fine careers even if they didn't all live up to the pre-draft hype (which is very normal for a significant % of most years' lottery classes).  (By my definition Marvin Williams isn't a bust to draw the distinction between a Johnny Flynn type and a Marvin type.  Flynn would have been a mistake if taken with the 20th pick of the draft.  Marvin would have been an outstanding pick at that part of the draft.)