Where does the Hawks bench rank?

[Peoriabird]

Y'all keep confusing bench talent with performance. ..Injuries play a role in performance but once everybody was healthy and used properly, they have proven to be an excellent group

[sturt]

Bogdan was the only known quantity. But/and as has been mentioned, he missed about the first 1/3 of the season, and even then as has been his history, it took a few games for him to get in his groove.

Think we all anticipated Yeka was going to show some significant maturity as the year evolved. That happened. And is happening. It wasn't all at once with Bey's arrival.

Think we all hoped... hoped... the 20 yr old Jalen and 19 yr old Adrian Junior would show some significant maturity as the year evolved. That happened for Adrian Junior fairly early, and happened for Jalen fairly late. But overall, think everyone's feeling good about both.

Think Aaron's been an overlooked/under-used asset for the most part. He's not a starter, okay, but otoh, he's most definitely not a bench sitter.

Saddiq filled a void that had been there for all of 2021-22. His acquisition has essentially given us some of the better attributes of Cam and of Solo in one package.

And when you add to a bench a component that, before Saddiq's arrival, had had no one  making those contributions... of course, it's naturally going to look a lot like his addition was key, but that's not really accurate, imo. All the others were already set to contribute at this level.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Again the question was about whether trades should be made to improve the bench not whether the bench was going to be good with key player temporarily out.  Some people thought that the bench lack talent which translates into i don't believe in JJ, AJ, Or Okungku.  Some also stated that Trae and Murray would not me staggered to cover all of the point guard minutes when healthy  They were wrong on all accounts period..So the answer is a resound yes, the bench is top 10 now that everyone is healthy

 First when we say the bench lacks talent it means there isn't enough talent for the bench because the bench is a multi person thing.   Sure individual guys have talent but the collective bench at the beginning of the season was lacking as evidenced by the numbers above.  

Holiday/Aj/JJ/OO is a bench that lacks talent.  especially at the begining of the season when AJ and JJ were so inexperienced.

Bogi/AJ/Bey/JJ/OO is a bench that has enough talent to compete.  

 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Y'all keep confusing bench talent with performance. ..Injuries play a role in performance but once everybody was healthy and used properly, they have proven to be an excellent group

I don't think this is quite that clear.  The question in the OP was about how our bench would stack up against the competition this year and it was pretty bad 2/3 of the way through the season.  That is performance focused (i.e., how would they perform).

You could also look at the question as being about how talented the group is and to the extent you are looking at our bench through that lens I agree with you that there is a disconnect.  Bey was a huge upgrade to our bench who wasn't part of the original analysis but the talent that OO, JJ, AJ, Bogi, and everyone had at the beginning of the year was the reason I thought this was maybe the most talented Atlanta team I've seen top to bottom.  Not the best (some of our guys were years from their prime when the season tipped off, others were hurt, etc.) but potentially great depth and talent and a lot of that high upside talent was coming off the bench.  Right now our coach wants to play 4 guys off the bench and really has 6 he can go to (OO, AH, AJ, JJ, Bogi & Bey) for quality minutes which is a great problem to have.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Again the question was about whether trades should be made to improve the bench not whether the bench was going to be good with key player temporarily out.  Some people thought that the bench lack talent which translates into i don't believe in JJ, AJ, Or Okungku.  Some also stated that Trae and Murray would not me staggered to cover all of the point guard minutes when healthy  They were wrong on all accounts period..So the answer is a resound yes, the bench is top 10 now that everyone is healthy

The thread question prior to the start of the season was:

Where does our bench rank heading into 22-23? and it was relative to other teams.

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I don't think this is quite that clear.  The question in the OP was about how our bench would stack up against the competition this year and it was pretty bad 2/3 of the way through the season.  That is performance focused (i.e., how would they perform).

You could also look at the question as being about how talented the group is and to the extent you are looking at our bench through that lens I agree with you that there is a disconnect.  Bey was a huge upgrade to our bench who wasn't part of the original analysis but the talent that OO, JJ, AJ, Bogi, and everyone had at the beginning of the year was the reason I thought this was maybe the most talented Atlanta team I've seen top to bottom.  Not the best (some of our guys were years from their prime when the season tipped off, others were hurt, etc.) but potentially great depth and talent and a lot of that high upside talent was coming off the bench.  Right now our coach wants to play 4 guys off the bench and really has 6 he can go to (OO, AH, AJ, JJ, Bogi & Bey) for quality minutes which is a great problem to have.

I read the first 3 pages of this thread trying to figure out where "talent" came into the discussion. The question was clearly where does the bench rank which speaks to performance, not talent.  And they ranked toward the bottom of the NBA in bench performance at the AS break.  Since Q took over, they rank at the very top in most categories.  Not that it's all on Q, but simply a matter to time, experience, maturation, and coaching.  They current "rank" at top of the NBA.  

Talent doesn't come and go. Performance and ranking vs peers does.  Early on they weren't good.  Now they are elite.  

[sturt]

12 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

FYI:

Bench rankings (Pre-Quin):

• 22nd in pts per game
• 5th in FG%
• 7th in 3pt FG%
• 21st in Reb/game
• 27th in Ast/game
• 24th in Steals/game
• 20th in Blocks/game
• 16th in point differential

Bench rankings (Post-Quin):

• 2nd in pts per game
• 1st in FG%
• 4th in 3pt FG%
• 3rd in Reb/game
• 24th in Ast/game
• 11th in Steals/game
• 2nd in Blocks/game
• 2nd in point differential

That's fairly dramatic improvement across the board since Q took over.  Hard to see any of the Pre-Q numbers and say the bench was any good.  Hard to argue any of the Post-Q numbers aren't ELITE.  My guess is the reasoning is Q's willingness to play JJ, Bogi being healthy, natural development of AJ, and addition of Bey.  

 

[JayBirdHawk]

The Holidaze vs Bogi and The Bey, plus increased playing time and confidence from JJ and OO taking huge leaps. Plus #TheQuinEffect.

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, sturt said:

 

Only qualifier I will add is that development is not necessarily linear so I don’t think you can assume, for example, that AJ will perform better in the second half of the year than he did in the first half.  Some guys hit a wall.  Some guys do two steps forward, one step back, etc.  So it isn’t a given that a bench like ours will be at their peak like ours is right now.  But I readily concede that development and health has trended up most of the year and peaked post-Quin.

[sturt]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Only qualifier I will add is that development is not necessarily linear so I don’t think you can assume, for example, that AJ will perform better in the second half of the year than he did in the first half.  Some guys hit a wall.  Some guys do two steps forward, one step back, etc.  So it isn’t a given that a bench like ours will be at their peak like ours is right now.  But I readily concede that development and health has trended up most of the year and peaked post-Quin.

Yeah, all well-taken. Not intended to be precise, but rather just a general illustration of the evolution and what one should expect of the averages that would come out of it.

 

[Gray Mule]

Baby Hawks!  Bench consists of one teen-ager and two more that just cleared their teen years!  Sometimes some of us have a tendency to forget how really young some of these Hawk players are.

Then, the starters contain players in only their mid 20's.  Trae is far from an old man, NBA wise.  His prime is still ahead of him.  Bogie!  Now, there's our old man!  Probably won't play more than 8 or 10 more years!

Taking our young men up to Bean Town.  Gonna see if we can put a real scare into these Celtics.. Take their team down to earth.  No sweep of this Hawk team!!

Edited April 13, 2023 by Gray Mule

[benhillboy]

2 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

FYI:

Bench rankings (Pre-Quin):

• 22nd in pts per game
• 5th in FG%
• 7th in 3pt FG%
• 21st in Reb/game
• 27th in Ast/game
• 24th in Steals/game
• 20th in Blocks/game
• 16th in point differential

Bench rankings (Post-Quin):

• 2nd in pts per game
• 1st in FG%
• 4th in 3pt FG%
• 3rd in Reb/game
• 24th in Ast/game
• 11th in Steals/game
• 2nd in Blocks/game
• 2nd in point differential

That's fairly dramatic improvement across the board since Q took over.  Hard to see any of the Pre-Q numbers and say the bench was any good.  Hard to argue any of the Post-Q numbers aren't ELITE.  My guess is the reasoning is Q's willingness to play JJ, Bogi being healthy, natural development of AJ, and addition of Bey.  

What website do you find a nice stat suite for bench units?  I’m guessing either the Bucks or Celtics rank first in point differential.

Just watching the Hawks I think they pass the eye test as the best currently.  

The Bucks are excellent 2-5 with White Joe Ingles/ Connaughton/ Crowder/ Portis but Jevon Carter is the clear weak link IMO.  Albeit he is a true BU while Aaron is a luxury third stringer a la Shelvin.  Where they have the obvious edge in experience I think the Hawks narrowly edge them with playmaking  and pace.

When healthy I guess the Celtics would go Pritchard/ Brogdon /Hauser /Grant /Horford as an all bench unit although they usually try to keep Tatum or Brown on the floor at all times.  That’s an excellent shooting group, obvious defensive liabilities with Pritchard and Hauser.  Still give the Hawks the edge.

Absolutely despise Jordan Poole so no to the Warriors lol.

Side note, Sacramento doesn’t seem to have anyone they remotely trust at the 5 outside of Sabonis, making their season even more impressive.

If fully healthy the Grizz can trot out some combination of Jones/ Kennard/ Aldama/ Tillman/ Clarke, not counting Bane or Brooks to fill the hole at the wing.  Very solid, still take the Hawks. 
 

All the Hawks BUs provide something near-elite.  Bogi, 40% from 3 and instinctive spacing.  OO, rugged energy and silky movement defensively.  AJ, near 40% three shooting and excellent poise when chased off.  Jalen, auxiliary playmaking, finishing and shot challenge.  His ceiling legit frightens me.  Bey, corner sniping, unpredictable movement, loose ball and offensive rebound tracking.  Aaron, consistent staying in front as a defender and excellent shot selection.  

I f&@kin love the chemistry.

Edited April 13, 2023 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

6 of the top 7 +/- on/ off rotational players for the Hawks this season are all bench dudes:

Over time that stat doesn’t lie.  Who the hell is Donovan Williams?

Edited April 13, 2023 by benhillboy

[bird_dirt]

19 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

6 of the top 7 +/- on/ off rotational players for the Hawks this season are all bench dudes:

Over time that stat doesn’t lie.  Who the hell is Donovan Williams?

We need to sign DoWill to a long term extension!

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, benhillboy said:

What website do you find a nice stat suite for bench units?

Nba.com/stats

You have to navigate to the team data and then filter by bench. I also looked at pre and post AS break but you can look at whatever segment you want. 

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, benhillboy said:

6 of the top 7 +/- on/ off rotational players for the Hawks this season are all bench dudes:

Over time that stat doesn’t lie.  Who the hell is Donovan Williams?

So Trae is the only starter with a positive ON Court number? Crazy. But we all knew the bench has carried the starters for most of the season.

I'd argue JJ and OO should be starting, but that's just me. 

[benhillboy]

17 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

So Trae is the only starter with a positive ON Court number? Crazy. But we all knew the bench has carried the starters for most of the season.

I'd argue JJ and OO should be starting, but that's just me. 

Yeah.  Good players all of ‘em.  They just don’t move the needle any.  
 

Trae pulled it up nicely, he was around -1.4 to -0.9 for a minute there early on.  The fact the team is 3.8 points better per 100 with DJ off is most glaring for sure.  His midrange game and timely steals do a good job limiting opposing teams runs but that’s about the size of his positive impact.

Edited April 14, 2023 by benhillboy

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:44 PM, REHawksFan said:

FYI:

Bench rankings (Pre-Quin):

• 22nd in pts per game
• 5th in FG%
• 7th in 3pt FG%
• 21st in Reb/game
• 27th in Ast/game
• 24th in Steals/game
• 20th in Blocks/game
• 16th in point differential

Bench rankings (Post-Quin):

• 2nd in pts per game
• 1st in FG%
• 4th in 3pt FG%
• 3rd in Reb/game
• 24th in Ast/game
• 11th in Steals/game
• 2nd in Blocks/game
• 2nd in point differential

That's fairly dramatic improvement across the board since Q took over.  Hard to see any of the Pre-Q numbers and say the bench was any good.  Hard to argue any of the Post-Q numbers aren't ELITE.  My guess is the reasoning is Q's willingness to play JJ, Bogi being healthy, natural development of AJ, and addition of Bey.  

What's our bench ranking in these 2 playoff games? Stats per game:

25 pts per game

37.2 FG%

31.8% from 3

17 rebounds per game

6.5 assists per game

3.5 Steals per game

2 Blocks per game

 

[REHawksFan]

13 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What's our bench ranking in these 2 playoff games? Stats per game:

25 pts per game

37.2 FG%

31.8% from 3

17 rebounds per game

6.5 assists per game

3.5 Steals per game

2 Blocks per game

 

25 pts per game - 8th of 16

37.2 FG% - 13th of 16

31.8% from 3 - 9th of 16

17 rebounds per game - 2nd of 16

6.5 assists per game - 6th of 16

3.5 Steals per game - 1st of 16

2 Blocks per game - 3rd of 16

16.0 Min per game - 8th of 16

 

Still elite in the non-scoring areas but shooting has fallen off a cliff. Overall scoring is middle of the pack though.  It's really just the missed shots in the paint that has killed the bench in this series.  And the starters sucking for too many stretches.  As for the bench, what does Shaq say about the 'Others'?  Something about they have to step up for road teams to win in the playoffs.