I can’t go through another/retool/reMESSUP

[Sothron]

Just now, NBASupes said:

I don't believe it was race as to why they took Trae over Luka. Box office, yes. Race, no. Trae is box office and guess what, he delivered. Look at the attendance. 

Trae is easier to sell to black fans in Atlanta than a white Euro player. That's not just me saying that. Trae is here because he would make the team more money than Luka would. And they were right. Trae is selling out the arena as good as if not better than Nique's prime years. The ONLY TIMES I've seen the arena this sold out was Nique's 80's years and the playoffs in the Joe/Horford years. So yes, Trae is definitely making them that cheddar.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Trae is easier to sell to black fans in Atlanta than a white Euro player. That's not just me saying that. Trae is here because he would make the team more money than Luka would. And they were right. Trae is selling out the arena as good as if not better than Nique's prime years. The ONLY TIMES I've seen the arena this sold out was Nique's 80's years and the playoffs in the Joe/Horford years. So yes, Trae is definitely making them that cheddar.

From what I heard, it was neck and neck and they leaned Luka but when it came down to it, many of Atlanta's famous fans said Trae Young and Travis seeked assets from Dallas to get him. But Atlanta was confident moving forward with Luka. I keep saying this but Tony wanted Luka more just not that much more like PHX owner was with Ayton.

[Atlantaholic]

26 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Miami is not an indictment of Trae.  Not hardly.  The entirety of our offense last season was set up by Trae dribble penetration with no ball movement, nobody capable of even bring the ball up the court, and nobody, and I mean NOBODY, being able to step up and hit a consistent perimeter shot. 

They literally did to Trae what teams did to JJ.  Throw up a zone and dare the team to shoot over it.  Miami made us choose between tough contested shots/plays from Trae or someone else doing anything.  There was nothing for him to be insecure about.  I don't know of a single player that could survive that scenario - not even LeBron who had Wade, Bosch, and Ray Allen when San Antonio used the same strategy.

Not saying it was just pointing out he has not been the same player since, which is a measurable fact. 

[Wretch]

25 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Not saying it was just pointing out he has not been the same player since, which is a measurable fact. 

By what measure is he different and more importantly, what is your root cause analysis?  What I take away from your previous comment is that your assertion is that the Miami series "did something to him" and he's trying to prove himself.  I'm not seeing you just pointing out facts that he's different this year.  What I'm reading from your post are the same surface-level arguments from casual social media observers who think "Cocky little Trae got exposed by Miami":

Quote

His head got too big after the first playoff run. He's always played at his best with a chip on his shoulders but after the Miami Heat series embarassment he has had some funky energy, like he's insecure in his own ability and who he is trying to prove he is elite is himself instead of the haters.

Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Sure, it's plausible that he could have been knocked down a peg.  Is it not equally if not more plausible though...that he's trying to find a balance along side a new alpha scorer while also playing into (and being frustrated by) that same zone defense that shut us down last year?  I think the latter would bother most players more - especially considering the hype and anticipation coming from all sides over the summer.

Miami did not shut him down or embarrass him.  They executed a game plan much like the Pistons executed a game plan against Jordan.  It is not Trae's responsibility to singlehandedly lift the team over that defense.  It is the responsibility of the front office to bring in another alpha scorer AND playmaker, which they did, and the responsibility of the coach to use the tools he has to counter (or adjust to) that strategy.  Hence why Trae is reportedly struggling to get along with Nate and is also likely affecting his game.

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Wretch said:

Sure, it's plausible that he could have been knocked down a peg.  Is it not equally if not more plausible though...that he's trying to find a balance along side a new alpha scorer while also playing into (and being frustrated by) that same zone defense that shut us down last year?  I think the latter would bother most players more - especially considering the hype and anticipation coming from all sides over the summer.

 

The day after the playoffs, I think Trae may have seemed shook... but after the summer, I don't think he was shook anymore.   I agree with what Wretch has said... Trying to find balance playing with another alpha.   I think Both He and Dejounte are trying to find their game.   It's not easy because neither of them are a nonball handling SG. 

Dec. 2021:  36.0 mpg, 30.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 10.0 apg, 43.3%FG  33.3%3pt

Dec. 2022:  35.9 mpg, 26.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 10.4 apg, 42.3%FG,  32.4%3pt

 

As you look into the numbers, the biggest change has been rebounds...  lol.  Seriously,  there has been a drop in PPG.. that's because he's trying to figure out how to share the ball with DJM.   A slight uptic... in apg.   If history is a predictor... by Feb last year, he had revd up his FG% to a nice 48.3 and by the end was sitting at 46-47%.  His three point percentage also revd up to a high 38% mark.

We got a lot to worry about, but Trae isn't that high on the list. 

 

 

 

[Watchman]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

He does. Why do you think DJM is here? He wanted to play with Trae. He dgaf about the Hawks just wanted to play with Trae. There's other guys that want to play with him.

 

And we already know that Trae is not content to move without the ball, so we have two point guards for what?  If Trae is the de facto GM, his first move is already a failure.

[Sothron]

2 hours ago, Watchman said:

And we already know that Trae is not content to move without the ball, so we have two point guards for what?  If Trae is the de facto GM, his first move is already a failure.

That's simply not true. Trae wants to come off the ball sometimes for catch and shoot. If the coach isn't calling screens to bring someone off for a catch and shoot that's not on Trae.

[Vol4ever]

All of this is deeply disturbing and will put this franchise back in the doldrums.   Ever since Ted left this franchise has been a mess.  

Good grief.  I'm too old for this BS.  

Edited January 4, 2023 by Vol4ever
Sp

[MarylandHawk]

8 hours ago, Watchman said:

I'd say the running of the business has been handed to Nick by Tony.  Nick's priority is to appease Trae.  Landry's role is to assist Nick in appeasing Trae.  I'd say this is a recipe for disaster.  In a way, I wish I never really had been made aware of these shenanigans.  Tell me if I am wrong, but I don't recall hearing about Luka purposefully getting GMs and Coaches fired.  I know that some players have orchestrated the acquisition of certain players, but at least the players they fought to get have made it a full season before experiencing "the thrill is gone."  The ownership and front office management is a disaster, and I wonder if things would be this bad if we had not traded to get Trae.  I guess we'll never know.  I feel badly for some of the negative comments I've had about Schlenk.  I did not know people were undermining him early on.  What a mess.

Yeah, I don’t think Trae is that powerful.  He wants to win like everybody else. These power moves are being made by someone higher in the ranks. They are also feeding info to the media. We need to tighten up. I don’t really care who is running the show as long as they take responsibility and produce. 

[Atlantaholic]

20 hours ago, Wretch said:

By what measure is he different and more importantly, what is your root cause analysis?  What I take away from your previous comment is that your assertion is that the Miami series "did something to him" and he's trying to prove himself.  I'm not seeing you just pointing out facts that he's different this year.  What I'm reading from your post are the same surface-level arguments from casual social media observers who think "Cocky little Trae got exposed by Miami":

Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Sure, it's plausible that he could have been knocked down a peg.  Is it not equally if not more plausible though...that he's trying to find a balance along side a new alpha scorer while also playing into (and being frustrated by) that same zone defense that shut us down last year?  I think the latter would bother most players more - especially considering the hype and anticipation coming from all sides over the summer.

Miami did not shut him down or embarrass him.  They executed a game plan much like the Pistons executed a game plan against Jordan.  It is not Trae's responsibility to singlehandedly lift the team over that defense.  It is the responsibility of the front office to bring in another alpha scorer AND playmaker, which they did, and the responsibility of the coach to use the tools he has to counter (or adjust to) that strategy.  Hence why Trae is reportedly struggling to get along with Nate and is also likely affecting his game.

 

He wasn't shut down? 15-6  on 6.2 turns and 30% shooting for a 44% TS and a PER of 5 with a -0.136 Win Shares per 48 mins is not shut down? You'd be hard pressed to find a worse playoff series by an All Star in the history of the NBA. Since then Trae's FG%, 3pt%, TS%, Box +-, Win Shares, VORP, Raptor Rating are all at the lowest levels of his career or just slightly better than his rookie year. So yea, considering he was playing as a top 2 offensive player in the NBA before that series and since then he is probably outside of the top 10, and if you take into account his still terrible defense he's not playing at a top 20 level overall atm, that's a pretty incredible drop for someone that should be starting to enter his prime. And obviously not all of it is his fault, plenty of fingers to point outside of Trae, but the fact he can't hit floaters or three pointers at anywhere near the rate he was hitting them last year or the year before that is not due to DJM, it's due to Trae Young. 

[Atlantaholic]

21 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

The day after the playoffs, I think Trae may have seemed shook... but after the summer, I don't think he was shook anymore.   I agree with what Wretch has said... Trying to find balance playing with another alpha.   I think Both He and Dejounte are trying to find their game.   It's not easy because neither of them are a nonball handling SG. 

Dec. 2021:  36.0 mpg, 30.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 10.0 apg, 43.3%FG  33.3%3pt

Dec. 2022:  35.9 mpg, 26.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 10.4 apg, 42.3%FG,  32.4%3pt

 

As you look into the numbers, the biggest change has been rebounds...  lol.  Seriously,  there has been a drop in PPG.. that's because he's trying to figure out how to share the ball with DJM.   A slight uptic... in apg.   If history is a predictor... by Feb last year, he had revd up his FG% to a nice 48.3 and by the end was sitting at 46-47%.  His three point percentage also revd up to a high 38% mark.

We got a lot to worry about, but Trae isn't that high on the list. 

 

 

 

December was the worst month of the entire season (outside of 6 game October) for Trae from an efficency standpoint last year, and it has been his best this year. (also his lowest scoring though). In November of last year Trae had a 61% TS% and he was at around  44% and 35% from three during his first 40 games. 

So not an endorsement here. If you don't cherry pick a single month and look at the full October-December performance this year compared to every season he has been in the league this is his worst shooting start since his rookie year. So you can ignore and make excuses for Trae's mediocre play all you want, and I will agree it's not all his fault, new players adjusting to DJM is all valid, but you look at how he was playing right before that Heat series and then watch any stretch of games this year and he's not the same player. Every stat supports this. Only facet of his game that has measurably improved is his TO%. 

[AHF]

On 1/3/2023 at 2:12 PM, Watchman said:

Trae? A superstar?  I thought superstars had people lining up wanting to play with them as their teammate.  Trae is a superstar...in his own mind.

Who has been lining up to play with Luka?  Seen more "stars" looking leave Dallas than to come there.  DM was at least really excited about becoming a Hawk.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

December was the worst month of the entire season (outside of 6 game October) for Trae from an efficency standpoint last year, and it has been his best this year. (also his lowest scoring though). In November of last year Trae had a 61% TS% and he was at around  44% and 35% from three during his first 40 games. 

So not an endorsement here. If you don't cherry pick a single month and look at the full October-December performance this year compared to every season he has been in the league this is his worst shooting start since his rookie year. So you can ignore and make excuses for Trae's mediocre play all you want, and I will agree it's not all his fault, new players adjusting to DJM is all valid, but you look at how he was playing right before that Heat series and then watch any stretch of games this year and he's not the same player. Every stat supports this. Only facet of his game that has measurably improved is his TO%. 

Cherry Pick??

I chose the latest month because it was the latest month...  The point still remains, Trae shows ebbs and flows throughout his career and he has continued to start slow and rev up.   Since you want to be complete, why not look over his whole pro history... instead of Cherry picking??

I don't consider Oct because usually that 4 or 5 games. 

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Atlantaholic said:

December was the worst month of the entire season (outside of 6 game October) for Trae from an efficency standpoint last year, and it has been his best this year. (also his lowest scoring though). In November of last year Trae had a 61% TS% and he was at around  44% and 35% from three during his first 40 games. 

So not an endorsement here. If you don't cherry pick a single month and look at the full October-December performance this year compared to every season he has been in the league this is his worst shooting start since his rookie year. So you can ignore and make excuses for Trae's mediocre play all you want, and I will agree it's not all his fault, new players adjusting to DJM is all valid, but you look at how he was playing right before that Heat series and then watch any stretch of games this year and he's not the same player. Every stat supports this. Only facet of his game that has measurably improved is his TO%. 

If you look over Trae's entire career, he is much worse from October to December than any other time of the year.  His lowest TS% pretty much across the board is this period. 

Last year, Trae had an ugly October and December with them being his worst months of the season.  (His November was solid, just a little worse than the 2022 play on average.)

In 2020-21, his worst month of the year was the first full month of play (no play in October and November due to COVID).

In 2019-20, his worst two full months of the year were November and December.   

In 2018-19, his worst two full months of the  year were November and December.

It isn't an excuse for his poor shooting this year but it is a significant trend that he is much better February - April than he is October - December.

[Atlantaholic]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

If you look over Trae's entire career, he is much worse from October to December than any other time of the year.  His lowest TS% pretty much across the board is this period. 

Last year, Trae had an ugly October and December with them being his worst months of the season.  (His November was solid, just a little worse than the 2022 play on average.)

In 2020-21, his worst month of the year was the first full month of play (no play in October and November due to COVID).

In 2019-20, his worst two full months of the year were November and December.   

In 2018-19, his worst two full months of the  year were November and December.

It isn't an excuse for his poor shooting this year but it is a significant trend that he is much better February - April than he is October - December.

I never said Trae didn't usually perform better in the second half of the season. I'm saying this is easily his worst first half start of the year since his rookie year scoring the ball. Both things can be true.

So just to illustrate this fact, here is the stats for the first three months of the year every year since his rookie year:

2019 (Oct-Dec):  31 games; 28.5ppg, 60% TS 

2020: (Dec-Feb): 32 games; 26.5 PPG, 59% TS

2021: (Oct-Dec): 32 games, 27.5 PPG, 58% TS

2022: (Oct-Dec) 32 games, 27.5PPG, 55% TS

PS: This drop in TS% this year coincides with a very big jump in the NBA league average TS% from 56.6% last year to 57.7% this year. Out of the top 30 scorers in the NBA only Keldon Johnson has a worse TS%. Ja is a fraction of a point better than Trae. Outside of those guys no one is under 57%

TS% formula used = Points ÷ ((2 x Field Goal Attempts) + (0.88 x Free Throw Attempts)

 

 

[Watchman]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Who has been lining up to play with Luka?  Seen more "stars" looking leave Dallas than to come there.  DM was at least really excited about becoming a Hawk.

I didn't say Like was a superstar either.  Ask DM how he feels about it now.  We're just another Wemby competitor, like San Antonio.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

I never said Trae didn't usually perform better in the second half of the season. I'm saying this is easily his worst first half start of the year since his rookie year scoring the ball. Both things can be true.

So just to illustrate this fact, here is the stats for the first three months of the year every year since his rookie year:

2019 (Oct-Dec):  31 games; 28.5ppg, 60% TS 

2020: (Dec-Feb): 32 games; 26.5 PPG, 59% TS

2021: (Oct-Dec): 32 games, 27.5 PPG, 58% TS

2022: (Oct-Dec) 32 games, 27.5PPG, 55% TS

PS: This drop in TS% this year coincides with a very big jump in the NBA league average TS% from 56.6% last year to 57.7% this year. Out of the top 30 scorers in the NBA only Keldon Johnson has a worse TS%. Ja is a fraction of a point better than Trae. Outside of those guys no one is under 57%

TS% formula used = Points ÷ ((2 x Field Goal Attempts) + (0.88 x Free Throw Attempts)

 

 

As I recalled, you relegated your comments to last year and this year... you cherry picked and it makes it seem as though you didn't consider that the trend is one that is true for his whole career.   Even with this being his "worst" start... the constant is that he always comes in stronger in the second half of the season.  He trends up.  So there's no need to be an "alarmist" about this.

 

 

[Watchman]

49 minutes ago, Watchman said:

I didn't say Like was a superstar either.  Ask DM how he feels about it now.  We're just another Wemby competitor, like San Antonio.

Luka not Like.  Ugh, I hate autocorrect.

[AUhawksfan]

I’m still holding hope after seeing Brooklyn turn it around.  I just wonder if ownership is too cheap and won’t want to fire Nate this season to save some dough and see if he steps down.  I’ve given Nate the benefit of the doubt but now is the time. It needs to happen. 

[Vol4ever]

Collins is a boss.  We would be stupid to trade him.