2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[thecampster]

47 minutes ago, Diesel said:

So.. the financial solvency of the team is worth more to you than if we are a championship team or not?

 

Gotcha...

Audible sigh.   Hey wait, does that reaction count as histrionics?

 

We had Collins, we were not a championship club. Nothing in his metrics or trends points to him being a championship type player. He was a net negative last year and has been all but 2 years of his career. That makes his impact average, not championship quality. That can't be your 2nd highest paid player. It just can't. 

 

I suggest you pour one out for Collins and move on.

[macdaddy]

28 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think he would have been OK with a pivot, not a complete dismantling of the team with the goal of losing as many games as possible.  

I think he was fine with the rebuild actually but realized, and rightly so, that they just wanted him to oversee the rebuild until the end of his contract and wouldn't keep him on after that.   I know i'm in the minority but i'd want out too in that situation. 

So much of this regime has been motivated by money and i think we can all see that now.  They didn't want to pay the rest of Bud's rich contract so they were hoping he'd quit but even worse would be having to fire him and pay his and a new coach's contract.  But there was no way in hell that Travis/Tony were going to re-up Bud.  He was a lame duck tasked with developing kids for the next regime and he wanted no part of it. 

[JeffS17]

30 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Audible sigh.   Hey wait, does that reaction count as histrionics?

 

We had Collins, we were not a championship club. Nothing in his metrics or trends points to him being a championship type player. He was a net negative last year and has been all but 2 years of his career. That makes his impact average, not championship quality. That can't be your 2nd highest paid player. It just can't. 

 

I suggest you pour one out for Collins and move on.

I think a lot of the reaction on this forum is not because we traded away JC, in a vacuum.  It's the accumulating frustration of constantly hearing Ressler is willing to pay the tax, Ressler is willing to pay the tax, Ressler is willing to pay the tax, coupled with salary shed moves that make the team worse.  Is it the end of the world JC got moved?  Absolutely not.  But the move is representative of what we've been seeing and feeling -- we're stuck in a constant circle of mediocrity, and moves like this contribute to the positive feedback cycle.

It's also annoyingly condescending to tell fans he's willing to pay the tax but only if we are contending.  That's not really noteworthy, at all.  There MIGHT be an owner or two that AREN'T willing to pay the tax for a championship level team.  So myself and others are sick of hearing that.  It's only noteworthy that an owner is willing to pay the tax, if they're willing to pay it to GET TO championship level.  So the route we're actually taking is not paying the tax and hoping that Quin can develop our players to be significantly better than the contracts they're on.

[Sothron]

15 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I think a lot of the reaction on this forum is not because we traded away JC, in a vacuum.  It's the accumulating frustration of constantly hearing Ressler is willing to pay the tax, Ressler is willing to pay the tax, Ressler is willing to pay the tax, coupled with salary shed moves that make the team worse.  Is it the end of the world JC got moved?  Absolutely not.  But the move is representative of what we've been seeing and feeling -- we're stuck in a constant circle of mediocrity, and moves like this contribute to the positive feedback cycle.

It's also annoyingly condescending to tell fans he's willing to pay the tax but only if we are contending.  That's not really noteworthy, at all.  There MIGHT be an owner or two that AREN'T willing to pay the tax for a championship level team.  So myself and others are sick of hearing that.  It's only noteworthy that an owner is willing to pay the tax, if they're willing to pay it to GET TO championship level.  So the route we're actually taking is not paying the tax and hoping that Quin can develop our players to be significantly better than the contracts they're on.

Ressler is also crazy rich. He's one of the richest NBA owners. He could easily pay the LT. It is completely deceptive to say "we're trying win titles" and  yet handicap the FO from making the necessary moves to BE a contender.

That said, the offseason is not over yet. Not only have I been told Ressler would pay the LT starting next season there are other reports saying he's told the FO they could pay the LT. 

If we don't pay the LT again this upcoming season then we know it was just more lies. Frankly at this point I urge everyone to not believe this ownership is serious about winning until they actually pay the LT. That is precisely where I am as a fan.

[Final_quest]

16 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I think a lot of the reaction on this forum is not because we traded away JC, in a vacuum.  It's the accumulating frustration of constantly hearing Ressler is willing to pay the tax, Ressler is willing to pay the tax, Ressler is willing to pay the tax, coupled with salary shed moves that make the team worse.  Is it the end of the world JC got moved?  Absolutely not.  But the move is representative of what we've been seeing and feeling -- we're stuck in a constant circle of mediocrity, and moves like this contribute to the positive feedback cycle.

It's also annoyingly condescending to tell fans he's willing to pay the tax but only if we are contending.  That's not really noteworthy, at all.  There MIGHT be an owner or two that AREN'T willing to pay the tax for a championship level team.  So myself and others are sick of hearing that.  It's only noteworthy that an owner is willing to pay the tax, if they're willing to pay it to GET TO championship level.  So the route we're actually taking is not paying the tax and hoping that Quin can develop our players to be significantly better than the contracts they're on.

When do you see where the clock started on Ressler not paying the tax?  I see it as last year with Huerter, and only that year.  Which before that we were mostly rebuilding and scaling without being in the position to pay.  

If he doesn't pay it this year, I see your critique as fair.  If he does pay it, we can look back on posts like this as histrionics (new buzz word).  

[AHF]

31 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

When do you see where the clock started on Ressler not paying the tax?  I see it as last year with Huerter, and only that year.  Which before that we were mostly rebuilding and scaling without being in the position to pay.  

If he doesn't pay it this year, I see your critique as fair.  If he does pay it, we can look back on posts like this as histrionics (new buzz word).  

I don't think we will ever look back at the statement that someone is skeptical about Ressler paying the tax as a "dramatic" or "emotionally exaggerated" display for effect.  At most, I would say that someone with that view is too cynical or something along those lines.  Jeff may be wrong but I don't think we are seeing histrionics with  his post in any way, shape, or form.

[Final_quest]

29 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't think we will ever look back at the statement that someone is skeptical about Ressler paying the tax as a "dramatic" or "emotionally exaggerated" display for effect.  At most, I would say that someone with that view is too cynical or something along those lines.  Jeff may be wrong but I don't think we are seeing histrionics with  his post in any way, shape, or form.

1. It would be awesome if we Ressler kicks in and starts spending to the point we look back at these posts as dramatic.

2. I just wanted to use the word in an effort to get into more posts.  Maybe this one was a stretch, but I like to wear words out sometimes.   

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm not necessarily looking for the TPE to be an upgrade to Collins' specifically...

I need a general TEAM upgrade, that makes us more competitive on the path to where we need to go.

Who that is it's unclear at the moment. I'll reserve my final analysis after FAcy.

Let me put my prediction out there.  The TPE is going to be used to get us to 15.   We just need 15 warm bodies.    Let me describe the next player for you.

Salary = less than 7.3 Million. 

That's it.

 Hell it can be a trade for 2 players.  Salaries less than 7.3 Million. 

Don't get me wrong, that can fetch us somebody useful..

Like

Jonathan Kuminga.  GS needs to drop some salary. And instead of just not picking up his team option, they may get some second round picks out of us for him. 

I mentioned Franz Wagner...  simply because I am fearful of the truth of us going after Cole Anthony. 

Finny Smith and Royce Oneal make too much.. but Patty Mills is in our wheelhouse. 

Payton Pritchard is out there too. 

I just want to temper you with the truth.   The truth is that this was a salary dump.  We're not looking to take on too much salary... so get ready for us to get a JHoli/AHoli kind of pick up with the TPE.

 

[RedDawg#8]

I wish we could stop focusing solely on the Luxury Tax and focus on what we are getting on the court for the price.

If we kept Kev and JC and paid the LT, and still lost in the 1st round would everyone be happy just because we were paying the Luxury Tax? No, we would not.

It’s not how much we spend, it’s what we are spending it on. Why are we so adamant that spending the LT means we all of sudden have prime time players under contract? 

Who did we get offered that would have put us above the tax that we said no to? Most teams aren’t offering us anything of real value right now. 

Im not mad at being aware of the tax if we know we aren’t getting better on the court.

[thecampster]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Let me put my prediction out there.  The TPE is going to be used to get us to 15.   We just need 15 warm bodies.    Let me describe the next player for you.

Salary = less than 7.3 Million. 

That's it.

 Hell it can be a trade for 2 players.  Salary less than 7.3 Million. 

Don't get me wrong, that can fetch us somebody useful..

Like

Jonathan Kuminga.  GS needs to drop some salary. And instead of just not picking up his team option, they may get some second round picks out of us for him. 

I mentioned Franz Wagner...  simply because I am fearful of the truth of us going after Cole Anthony. 

Finny Smith and Royce Oneal make too much.. but Patty Mills is in our wheelhouse. 

Payton Pritchard is out there too. 

I just want to temper you with the truth.   The truth is that this was a salary dump.  We're not looking to take on too much salary... so get ready for us to get a JHoli/AHoli kind of pick up with the TPE.

 

We have other exceptions. We wouldn't blow the TPE just to get to 15.

I think everyone on this board would take Payton Pritchard to replace Aaron Holiday

Edited June 27, 2023 by thecampster

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

Audible sigh.   Hey wait, does that reaction count as histrionics?

 

We had Collins, we were not a championship club. Nothing in his metrics or trends points to him being a championship type player. He was a net negative last year and has been all but 2 years of his career. That makes his impact average, not championship quality. That can't be your 2nd highest paid player. It just can't. 

 

I suggest you pour one out for Collins and move on.

You said.. IF COLLINS BLOW UP in UTAH  AND IF JJ FAILS HERE that we STILL MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE.

IF you would like to sigh about something, sigh about this...  That's the Kool Aid drinkers punch.  Money over  Winning is what I see here.   Tell me how it's not. 

You want to talk about Net Negatives.  What has DeAndre Hunter Been?   The problem with shipping JC off for nothing my friend is that there were several other moves we could have done before we got to this one.  That would have made more sense and would have recouped us better value.   

Moreover, back to your original statement.  If Collins does Blow up in Utah, I believe that the correct diagnosis would be that we have been using him wrong.. which is something that everybody but statwatchers can see.  You care to tell us what happened after those two years of his career that he was a net positive?  Of course not, it requires dialogue about how our team has been set up. 

Here's the prediction for you camp... JC = Allstar next year. 

While we will sit here with financial solvency and using our TPE on Dario Saric or somebody.   Mark it down.

 

 

 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, thecampster said:

We have other exceptions. We wouldn't blow the TPE just to get to 15.

I think everyone on this board would take Payton Pritchard to replace Aaron Holiday

That's right Camp...

Get us ready for the reality..  So we don't have that buyer's remorse.   

• "Even if we suck, we still made the right decision."
• "JC was a net negative"
• "Everybody on the board would take Payton Pritchard". 

Sometimes, when the owners lack media personnel, it's good to have a spinner on the social media.

 

[Phunkabilly]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You said.. IF COLLINS BLOW UP in UTAH  AND IF JJ FAILS HERE that we STILL MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE.

IF you would like to sigh about something, sigh about this...  That's the Kool Aid drinkers punch.  Money over  Winning is what I see here.   Tell me how it's not. 

You want to talk about Net Negatives.  What has DeAndre Hunter Been?   The problem with shipping JC off for nothing my friend is that there were several other moves we could have done before we got to this one.  That would have made more sense and would have recouped us better value.   

Moreover, back to your original statement.  If Collins does Blow up in Utah, I believe that the correct diagnosis would be that we have been using him wrong.. which is something that everybody but statwatchers can see.  You care to tell us what happened after those two years of his career that he was a net positive?  Of course not, it requires dialogue about how our team has been set up. 

Here's the prediction for you camp... JC = Allstar next year. 

While we will sit here with financial solvency and using our TPE on Dario Saric or somebody.   Mark it down.

 

 

 

Lol, you may want to slow your roll there, Diesel.  JC's fit on Utah is arguably worse than it was with us... they have no PnR PG to get him the ball, and their front court is awfully crowded, so I don't see his usage rate being much better over there.  Of course that could change as free agency hits, but right now it looks pretty bleak from where I'm sitting.

[thecampster]

15 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You said.. IF COLLINS BLOW UP in UTAH  AND IF JJ FAILS HERE that we STILL MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE.

IF you would like to sigh about something, sigh about this...  That's the Kool Aid drinkers punch.  Money over  Winning is what I see here.   Tell me how it's not. 

You want to talk about Net Negatives.  What has DeAndre Hunter Been?   The problem with shipping JC off for nothing my friend is that there were several other moves we could have done before we got to this one.  That would have made more sense and would have recouped us better value.   

Moreover, back to your original statement.  If Collins does Blow up in Utah, I believe that the correct diagnosis would be that we have been using him wrong.. which is something that everybody but statwatchers can see.  You care to tell us what happened after those two years of his career that he was a net positive?  Of course not, it requires dialogue about how our team has been set up. 

Here's the prediction for you camp... JC = Allstar next year. 

While we will sit here with financial solvency and using our TPE on Dario Saric or somebody.   Mark it down.

 

 

 

You realize JC plays the same position as Markannen?

 

25 players in the western conference that played power forward had a higher PER than Collins last year.....just helping you keep it real.

[shakes]

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

Ressler is also crazy rich. He's one of the richest NBA owners. He could easily pay the LT. It is completely deceptive to say "we're trying win titles" and  yet handicap the FO from making the necessary moves to BE a contender.

That said, the offseason is not over yet. Not only have I been told Ressler would pay the LT starting next season there are other reports saying he's told the FO they could pay the LT. 

If we don't pay the LT again this upcoming season then we know it was just more lies. Frankly at this point I urge everyone to not believe this ownership is serious about winning until they actually pay the LT. That is precisely where I am as a fan.

I feel like the opposite of the revolutionaries in Boston in 1773 throwing tea into the ocean to protest a tax.

 

Meanwhile, we're over here screaming at the top of our lungs, "WE WANT THE TAX! WE WANT THE TAX!" and "MORE TAXATION WITH PLAYIN TOURNAMENT REPRESENTATION! MORE TAXATION WITH PLAYIN TOURNAMENT REPRESENTATION!"

 

Somewhere Paul Revere is spinning in his grave.

[Phunkabilly]

4 minutes ago, shakes said:

I feel like the opposite of the revolutionaries in Boston in 1773 throwing tea into the ocean to protest a tax.

 

Meanwhile, we're over here screaming at the top of our lungs, "WE WANT THE TAX! WE WANT THE TAX!" and "MORE TAXATION WITH PLAYIN TOURNAMENT REPRESENTATION! MORE TAXATION WITH PLAYIN TOURNAMENT REPRESENTATION!"

 

Somewhere Paul Revere is spinning in his grave.

A+++ post 

[NekiEcko]

9 minutes ago, shakes said:

I feel like the opposite of the revolutionaries in Boston in 1773 throwing tea into the ocean to protest a tax.

 

Meanwhile, we're over here screaming at the top of our lungs, "WE WANT THE TAX! WE WANT THE TAX!" and "MORE TAXATION WITH PLAYIN TOURNAMENT REPRESENTATION! MORE TAXATION WITH PLAYIN TOURNAMENT REPRESENTATION!"

 

Somewhere Paul Revere is spinning in his grave.

and then we get into the tax and you will be saying "Stop the Tax, Stop the Tax" when our pick goes to the end of the round (just imagine, you get the number one pick but it has to be push all the way back to the end of the round because of the tax).

But at the end of the day, I know it sucks that we have to do a salary dump but it is what it is and this team will be still in the running for the playoffs and so much more (if we dont make it, we will have two first round picks next year......tentative).

 

 

[AHF]

28 minutes ago, Phunkabilly said:

Lol, you may want to slow your roll there, Diesel.  JC's fit on Utah is arguably worse than it was with us... they have no PnR PG to get him the ball, and their front court is awfully crowded, so I don't see his usage rate being much better over there.  Of course that could change as free agency hits, but right now it looks pretty bleak from where I'm sitting.

 

21 minutes ago, thecampster said:

You realize JC plays the same position as Markannen?

 

25 players in the western conference that played power forward had a higher PER than Collins last year.....just helping you keep it real.

Utah took on his $25M/year contract so I would assume they plan to give him plenty of PT.  If I had to give my prediction, I'd say they will be playing Lauri and JC together when they can and that actually works very nicely offensively.  I think JC can still be effective in PnR situations even without a superb PG just because he is so good at rim running.  If he isn't hindered by his health, I expect him to have significantly better numbers than last year.  And that is especially true for PER.  JC's PER was by far the worst of his career last year and a big part of that was health.  When he was healthier at the end of the season, he was also much better.  If he gets to do more attacking the rim, his TS% will rise (to be much more like the .620% it was after the All-Star break last year) which will pump his PER upwards.

I'm definitely open for bets for anyone who thinks he will have fewer win shares or a lower PER this year than last year.

44 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

Here's the prediction for you camp... JC = Allstar next year. 

 

I'm also totally open for bets for anyone who thinks he will be an All-Star next year.  That isn't happening.  If Utah gets a rep, it will be Lauri.

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, RedDawg#8 said:

It’s not how much we spend, it’s what we are spending it on. Why are we so adamant that spending the LT means we all of sudden have prime time players under contract? 

I said nearly the same thing a couple days ago.  It’s reaching irrational levels.  People care more about being a tax paying team than overpaying for mid tier talent.

If Collins was so top shelf why did nobody offer more than Utah?  

[AHF]

Just now, Final_quest said:

I said nearly the same thing a couple days ago.  It’s reaching irrational levels.  People care more about being a tax paying team than overpaying for mid tier talent.

If Collins was so top shelf why did nobody offer more than Utah?  

If rumors are believed, there have been offers for Collins much better than what we just took.  Right now, it is clear JC isn't top shelf but it is unclear what value has been offered.  If you buy into this as being a move to get under the tax line, then you have to recognize the team may have ignore offers with matching salaries coming back even if they deliver good talent.  We just don't know.  I'm sure LA wasn't calling offering LeBron or anything but maybe you could have gotten a Jerami Grant type of player in return and the owner preferred not paying the tax.  Just saying that this is very possible if the main objective was to shed salary.  (Not Grant specifically just naming a player who is clearly valuable but not "top shelf.")