2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

There's more rational posters

Unh unh..

[marco102]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't think you can genuinely say "we" here... I'm not going to scroll through and pull receipts, but the narrative that he doesn't want to be here and won't re-sign is reinforced by many posters every single time Siakam comes up.  That and people not understanding future cap space and market value.  Obviously, I'm fine with people not thinking the fit is good or not wanting to overpay -- that's why I come to this discussion board, to have deeper-than-surface-level back and forth on players, fit, salary cap, etc.  But there's not been much discussion around Siakam, unfortunately, other than hand-waving him away because of "spacing" and "3P shooting".  And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this is another pass on Siakam post that doesn't mention or acknowledge defense.

There are more posts about the fit issue in this thread than the not re-signing issue.  The fit issue isn't about the spacing and 3P Shooting.  It's about can you have a front court of two 6'8" players and be successful.  Does Jalen Johnson fit with Siakim and his skillset?  Does Dejounte?  The answer is yeah, it can work, but would it be the best for the Hawks.  In my opinion, NO!  That's the only reason I wanted KAT because he makes everyone that we currently have on the roster fit into a nice role and the skillsets compliment each other.  You can say yeah, the defense may suck.  The defense may suck with Siakiam too with a much worse offensive impact. 

[Wretch]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't think you can genuinely say "we" here... I'm not going to scroll through and pull receipts, but the narrative that he doesn't want to be here and won't re-sign is reinforced by many posters every single time Siakam comes up.  That and people not understanding future cap space and market value.  Obviously, I'm fine with people not thinking the fit is good or not wanting to overpay -- that's why I come to this discussion board, to have deeper-than-surface-level back and forth on players, fit, salary cap, etc.  But there's not been much discussion around Siakam, unfortunately, other than hand-waving him away because of "spacing" and "3P shooting".  And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this is another pass on Siakam post that doesn't mention or acknowledge defense.

Him not wanting to be here and him not re-signing are two different things.  The former is posturing strategy because he wants to get paid and because he wants to stay in Toronto.  I don't doubt either of those things.  Getting paid becomes a much larger concern once he's traded.  That's my point.

In regards to defense...  Maybe you and I haven't had the conversation, but I've been on that merry-go-round too many times the last couple of decades and I don't do those anymore.  ICYMI, I have an affinity for front court players like Okongwu (@Spud lol), Draymond, Charles Oakley, Ben Wallace, and Dennis Rodman.  My all time favorite C is Mutombo.  I love traditional PG's who facilitate on one end and disrupt the offense on the other - like DJM and Smitty (though he played SG for us).  Point is, I appreciate players who defend more so than anyone else and Pascal was on my wishlist for a LONG time because of it.

I do understand what it takes on both sides of the ball to contend and I have a far greater appreciation/affinity for defense.  However, there's a couple points that we'll have to agree to disagree on if your intention is to fire up a merry-go-round there.  One, as much as I care about defense, I don't subscribe to individual defensive quantifiers beyond the basics.  I think people oversell the value of player metrics in that regard.  Team defense, synergy, effort, matchups, and scheme are far more important factors.  Secondly, there's a whole conversation to be had about how offense and defense play into each other - and how awful our offense is when it counts.  This has been covered enough and Siakam's offensive bag doesn't cover the gap.  I would also not put any stock into our defense, team or otherwise, moving the needle enough to compensate.

Ultimately, I think you need one of DJM/Siakam and an elite shooter in place of the other.

[Final_quest]

If the sea of opinions matter, I’m pro Siakam.  Any player of his caliber should be considered.  No one we can acquire will be a perfect fit, but Siakam is better than waiting on JJ, AJ, etc.  

Get Siakam, develop the young guys and adjust the roster with a bigger talent pool in the next two years.  
 

Signed,

Low IQ Casual

[AHF]

3 hours ago, shakes said:

[__]

[X] didn't come close to following the rules

If you think that a 1x All-Star doesn't meet the criteria spelled out since he was also All-NBA that same season, then replace him with someone else?  How about Tyrese Haliburton (1x All-Star, 0x All-NBA)?  Let's not allow semantics to bog this down and we'll go with a 0x All-Star: 

PG:  Jamal Murray (0x All-Star, 0x All-NBA)

SG:  OG (0x All-Star, 0x All-NBA)

SF:  Mikal Bridges (0x All-Star, 0x All-NBA)

PF:  Giannis

C.:  Jokic

Does that make the slightest bit of difference?  Not really.  Honestly, it might actually improve the lineup given the spacing Murray creates in the playoffs versus SGA's lesser perimeter shooting the last two years.

[ABH]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

If the sea of opinions matter, I’m pro Siakam.  Any player of his caliber should be considered.  No one we can acquire will be a perfect fit, but Siakam is better than waiting on JJ, AJ, etc.  

Get Siakam, develop the young guys and adjust the roster with a bigger talent pool in the next two years.  
 

Signed,

Low IQ Casual

We are not trading anyone..we are going  to run it with what we got

[Diesel]

18 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Do you believe that the spacing on our offense will be helped by any of the proposed trades?

Spacing will not be affected AND we'll be more dangerous on offense.  The thing that is overlooked about Siakam, is his passing ability.  That means that a guy like Trae gets more spot up opportunities from 3, instead of creating his own 3 point shots off the dribble.  That could dramatically improve his efficiency from 3.  DJ is an average 3 point shooter who actually showed some improvement this season.  With Bogi still on the team, we know he can shoot in the high 30% - low 40% from 3

Spacing?  You mean like we've had in past seasons with John Collins at the 4?  Siakam at least shoots just as well if not better than Collins.  And even Okongwu wouldn't be rooted to just being under the rim under Quin.  Our spacing and our ability to create easier lay up and dunk attempts may be even better with 3 guys on the court who can pass the basketball.

I guess you feel like if you write it... it becomes fact. 

Everybody acknowledges that our spacing doesn't get better but it gets worse when you put a 32% 3pt shooter in the starting rotation.   

 

Siakam's passing is a benefit of his high usage. 

Here are our other starters... 3pt percentages. 

 

Add Pascal Siakam too that. 

 

Before we even add Siakam, we're talking about 5.4 out of 15.8 = 34.2% 

After we add Siakam, we're talking  6.7 out 19.7 =  33.8%.

 

Here's part 1 of Team 3 pt shooting for last season. 

Here's part 2.

 

The last team is Houston.   Shooting 32.7% from 3...

You say spacing won't change.   Hero says Spacing doesn't matter.  You both need to get some understanding. 

 

[RedDawg#8]

I think our spacing improves naturally with the philosophy of Quinn to shoot more 3’s.

Having Bey and a healthy Bogi from the start of the season will also go a long way to improving that as well.

We have a good bit of shooting when you look at many teams, it’s all about how we utilize them moving forward.

What were are missing, however, is a low post threat. Until we address that, we can forget about making a deep playoff run.

The Warriors are the only team in the modern NBA to win a ring without a go to scorer in the post. 

That is the reason I am on board with a Siakam or KAT acquisition. You will see a lot more open looks when the defense has to guard inside out.
 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Wretch said:

As it pertains to him re-signing, I think we all know this is just agent posturing in the silly season and is a nothing sandwich.  He's going to re-sign unless the season is a total disaster and we present him with some insulting numbers.  The latter being the most influential in his decision making...

I think this is a point of contention.   Why would he submit himself to a long term deal if the cap is going up. 

We just saw Brown get paid more than anybody in the history of the game has gotten paid... and even though Siakam would miss out on the supermax.. why would he sign for his max 5 yr deal  in 2024 if in 2025, the cap is to go up by 10% and 10% in 2026 

So in 2024, you can sign for a 5 year 242 Million dollar deal with the Hawks. 

or

Sign a 1 year 33 Million dollar deal with a team and in 2025 resign with them for 4 year  $247.25 Million dollar deal.  (that's EB rights with 5% raises)

 

 

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I think our spacing improves naturally with the philosophy of Quinn to shoot more 3’s.

Not without our starters hitting more 3s. 

The indiana Pacers were 7th in 3pt attempts last season.   and they went nowhere. 

We were 27th in attempts...  If we don't make 3 pters more consistently, the number of 3s we take will do us no good. 

 

[AHF]

48 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think this is a point of contention.   Why would he submit himself to a long term deal if the cap is going up. 

We just saw Brown get paid more than anybody in the history of the game has gotten paid... and even though Siakam would miss out on the supermax.. why would he sign for his max 5 yr deal  in 2024 if in 2025, the cap is to go up by 10% and 10% in 2026 

So in 2024, you can sign for a 5 year 242 Million dollar deal with the Hawks. 

or

Sign a 1 year 33 Million dollar deal with a team and in 2025 resign with them for 4 year  $247.25 Million dollar deal.  (that's EB rights with 5% raises)

 

 

Why?  Because there is an increasingly high chance every year that people won’t be willing to pay him that much.  Every year he gets older he has less leverage than he does today and that is assuming his performance doesn’t falter.  I think the rationale call is to lock in a max deal if he can get one because he isn’t LeBron where he is guaranteed to have years of max offers into his early 30’s.

[Diesel]

56 minutes ago, AHF said:

hy?  Because there is an increasingly high chance every year that people won’t be willing to pay him that much.  Every year he gets older he has less leverage than he does today and that is assuming his performance doesn’t falter.  I think the rationale call is to lock in a max deal if he can get one because he isn’t LeBron where he is guaranteed to have years of max offers into his early 30’s.

But nobody said every year.  I said for 1 year.  Then sign a 4 year deal.   The rational call is not to lock in at a lower price point when you can reasonably get a higher price point.   Moreover, I'm sure that the team he's signing with can add their own protections to the contract like TO or not having a trade kicker. 

 

 

[Threezus]

7 hours ago, shakes said:

[__]  Great answer

[X] Didn't come close following the rules

 

 

Pretty sure a guy who was first team all NBA doesn't qualify as as fringe all star talent. 

To be fair before you even decided to reply to this it was already fixed with a updated and probably upgraded roster a few posts down.  You just couldn't hold off long enough before ya blasted a little bit

Edited July 31, 2023 by Threezus

[shakes]

1 hour ago, Threezus said:

To be fair before you even decided to reply to this it was already fixed with an updated and probably upgraded roster a few posts down.  You just couldn't hold off long enough before ya blasted a little bit

Where’s the fun in that?   

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, Plainview1981 said:

McGee is not worthwhile at this point and Bruno is a 10th man kind of player at best right now. OO is very foul prone and neither of those guys are up to having a big role.

 

Doesn't matter. 

We all know what Clint's ceiling is as a player. We don't know Okongwu's ceiling.  It's time to see what we really have in OO.

And I have no doubt that Bruno can step in and give us decent backup center minutes.

We were a .500 team last year. And so far, all we have changed is the coach and lost some fringe talent. 

If OO isn't ready to take Clint's spot, why are we even holding  onto him?

[Plainview1981]

16 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Doesn't matter. 

We all know what Clint's ceiling is as a player. We don't know Okongwu's ceiling.  It's time to see what we really have in OO.

And I have no doubt that Bruno can step in and give us decent backup center minutes.

We were a .500 team last year. And so far, all we have changed is the coach and lost some fringe talent. 

If OO isn't ready to take Clint's spot, why are we even holding  onto him?

I'm not saying that OO can't start, but if he starts and Cap is gone the Hawks will need better big men coming off the bench.

[RedDawg#8]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Not without our starters hitting more 3s. 

The indiana Pacers were 7th in 3pt attempts last season.   and they went nowhere. 

We were 27th in attempts...  If we don't make 3 pters more consistently, the number of 3s we take will do us no good. 

 

We will hit more 3’s.

In 25 games Bey shot .470 in Atlanta (.422 for the entire season) 

In 54 games Bogi shot .400 from 3.

If nothing changes but their number of games played, that still equals more made three’s.  

Then you look at team 3point percentage. We were at 35.2% with our 2 best shooters being on the court for less than half the season combined.

Subtract JC and his career worst shooting season on the highest number of three point shots of his career and we instantly jump up to league average in percentage.

None of this accounts for any personnel changes, but then you consider that Patty Mills is a .389 career shooter from 3 and Wes Matthews is a career .376 shooter.

If Quinn has the team increasing their volume of 3’s that equals more made three’s because we will have better percentage shooters shooting more in 2023 versus lesser percentage shooters shooting less in 2022. 

In a nutshell, we are going to be a better 3 point shooting team next season as currently constructed.

Even if we lose CC and Hunter for Siakam, we lose our worst spacing player and a league average spacing player, which offsets whatever we gain or lose with Siakam’s spacing or lack of.

A green light under Quinn will easily show up in the stats.

[Threezus]

2 hours ago, shakes said:

Where’s the fun in that?   

Their isn't really im not mad at ya im a quick trigger more often than not as well on other forums lol.

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't think you can genuinely say "we" here... I'm not going to scroll through and pull receipts, but the narrative that he doesn't want to be here and won't re-sign is reinforced by many posters every single time Siakam comes up.  That and people not understanding future cap space and market value.  Obviously, I'm fine with people not thinking the fit is good or not wanting to overpay -- that's why I come to this discussion board, to have deeper-than-surface-level back and forth on players, fit, salary cap, etc.  But there's not been much discussion around Siakam, unfortunately, other than hand-waving him away because of "spacing" and "3P shooting".  And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this is another pass on Siakam post that doesn't mention or acknowledge defense.

When you hear Dame Lillard's agent warning other teams not to trade for Lillard, do you think that it is just him posturing or do you think there is a serious threat behind it?

Of course it's a serious threat. 

So why would you think that Siakam's agent is merely posturing?

If Toronto has made it up in their mind that they are trading him, what is the benefit of him saying he won't sign an extension.  

He doesn't benefit at all.  He wrecks his own value.   If there's no benefit in it, then his threat is real and the league is taking it that way.  Only Hawks fans who really believe that he's worth the squeeze are begging to give away good players for what could be either:

1.  A rental. 

2.   An overpay. 

 

 

[Diesel]

52 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

If OO isn't ready to take Clint's spot, why are we even holding  onto him?

What if OO and Clint makes a perfect C combination?