King Kong

[sturt]

  

On 10/3/2023 at 12:10 PM, REHawksFan said:

Big O.......love it.   

And Big Fella, I'm excited for you to play more as well.  Let's GO!!

Of course you do. It's who you are. You wear it proudly, which is your right. Your right. Not "you're right." It's wrong, but it's good to live in a country where you can say what you want to say, as wrong as it may prove to be given further scrutiny by serious people.

 

And. While it is true that almost all of my sports attention for the next several months will be consumed by my Cowboys, my Blackhawks, and coming next spring, some yet-uncertain USFL/XFL football team... and will just every now look to see how that hamster wheel is turnin over here for my Hawks friends... King Kong is going to be the one Hawk I'm actually going to be actively rooting against. I don't care. He's now come out and actively pushing this. It's not okay. It's shameful. It's disrespectful. It's thinking only of himself, which is another way of saying, it's immature.

Look. I've said it countless times, but it's never more true than now.

Oscar Robertson is too good of a person, let alone too good of a basketball player in his time, to have to share his moniker with any other NBA player, let alone one that, by any objective measure, should have to pay dearly merely to have the privilege of sniffing one of Real Big O's old moldy stinky jock straps. His name on many of his trophies says "Big O"... doesn't even say Oscar Robertson.

We don't piddle around and wonder if anyone else should ever be okay to call some new kid "Dr. J"... but some of you will be more than happy to piddle around with Big O.

Selfish. Sure, you don't owe Real Big O anything, and you owe Fake Big O some allegiance since he wears the red-and-orangey-yeller uniform.

But no. That's wrong. Be mature and think. You do owe Real Big O something. You... like the rest of us who have enjoyed the NBA... owe Real Big O respect, because you owe the game respect. "Respect the game" cannot not mean anything less than respecting the game's legends.

 

King Kong, it is, then. And the congregation said.... amen.

 

 

 

[AHF]

While I respect  your view on OO using "Big O" as his nickname as being problematic sturt, I'm not going to:

(a) root against a Hawk for that kind of reason (beat your wife or abuse your kid or something and I'm with you but not this); and

(b) I'm not going to respond by using a nickname that is perceived by some as racially problematic.  If I'm going to use an alternative nickname it will be something like OO or OO17, etc.  (Which you'll coincidently note is exactly what I do).

[sturt]

Just now, AHF said:

While I respect  your view on OO using "Big O" as his nickname as being problematic sturt, I'm not going to:

(a) root against a Hawk for that kind of reason (beat your wife or abuse your kid or something and I'm with you but not this); and

(b) I'm not going to respond by using a nickname that is perceived by some as racially problematic.  If I'm going to use an alternative nickname it will be something like OO or OO17, etc.  (Which you'll coincidently note is exactly what I do).

(a) that's fine... I wouldn't expect you to... it's one of the luxuries of having given up on this team that I don't have any reason not to root against someone who openly and flagrantly disrespects a legend.

(b) that's fine, too... I'm only going that far, of course, because I think Fake Big O has gone that far... if he feels it's fine to disrespect a legend, then I feel it's fine to be disrespectful of him, then... albeit, truly, it will always be too bad that that nickname has those racial overtones because it's a great nickname otherwise for an NBA center, just stating the obvious.

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

Of course you do. It's who you are. You wear it proudly,

That sounds like a personal attack.  Of course it is.  It's who you are.   But I digress.  

I have no problem with Big O using a nickname he's apparently had since he was a kid.  And if you do, eh, who cares?  It's a free country.  You do you.  I only question why, if you've given up and quit on this team, you even care enough to waste time and energy here debating something so ridiculously inane like the use of a personal nickname.  But whatever, you do you.  

[aali34]

Never-mind sticking, King Kong will never even get acknowledged as a potential nickname. If you want him to drop Big O, you're gonna have to think of something different. 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

that's fine, too... I'm only going that far, of course, because I think Fake Big O has gone that far... if he feels it's fine to disrespect a legend, then I feel it's fine to be disrespectful of him, then... albeit, truly, it will always be too bad that that nickname has those racial overtones because it's a great nickname otherwise for an NBA center, just stating the obvious.

Can I suggest using "Fake Big O" or something instead?  That is disrespectful without opening the door to concerns about perpetuating harmful racial stereotypes.

[sturt]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Can I suggest using "Fake Big O" or something instead?  That is disrespectful without opening the door to concerns about perpetuating harmful racial stereotypes.

I'm inclined to leave my options open and use either/or depending on my mood. In its own way "Fake Big O" is more disrespectful, actually, because there is no actual upside to ever being "fake" anything... whereas King Kong is only actually disrespectful as it would be used in a racist way... to illustrate, if it where so ubiquitously inflammatory, people would argue there should never be another King Kong movie... the normal every day way, King Kong is the imagery of strength and dominance (as we all realize). The only reason I even use it, in light of that fact, is that it apparently is something that bothers someone who should be more bothered by his own obtuse disrespect.

But don't worry too much. I've not been around here much the last 100 days, and that's more likely to lessen than it is to increase. But I encourage others to use King Kong as they find it suits them for as long as Fake Big O continues to be an immature ass about it all.

 

[sturt]

57 minutes ago, aali34 said:

If you want him to drop Big O, you're gonna have to think of something different. 

Nah. It's enough even if I end up being the only one to use it. I'm not so naive as to think anything I personally do is going to force that to happen. So, I'm left to just be satisfied with my little re-balancing of justice here in my own corner of the social media world. I'm certain King Kong will see it anyway, which is great... until he blocks me.... hehehe.

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, sturt said:

I'm inclined to leave my options open and use either/or depending on my mood. In its own way "Fake Big O" is more disrespectful, actually, because there is no actual upside to ever being "fake" anything... whereas King Kong is only actually disrespectful as it would be used in a racist way... to illustrate, if it where so ubiquitously inflammatory, people would argue there should never be another King Kong movie... the normal every day way, King Kong is the imagery of strength and dominance (as we all realize). 

 

You missed the entire point of why it is considered racist if you think that the moves need to stop being made.

King Kong movies are about a giant gorilla.  No one is offended by a gorilla being in a movie.  No one is asking to kill King Kong movies featuring the giant gorilla.  But they would be if the next "King Kong" movie was about a black man who was doing something someone found disrespectful and that person chose to label him King Kong as a sign of a returning disrespect.  

Black people have been compared to apes, gorillas, etc. historically as a way of dehumanizing them, comparing them to animals of less than human intelligence.  The problem isn't the words King Kong or an ape in a movie.  It is applying the name which is inextricably linked to a gorilla to a human being that is where people view it as problematic.  Because racists have linked black people and gorillas, the argument goes, we should not link young black men to gorillas for fear of perpetuating that racism.  And that is doubly true because there are plenty of racists who do exactly that today.  For example, a Director in the West Virginia government famously called Michelle Obama " an ape in heels."  The comparison to apes, monkeys, and gorillas is very much still an active racial attack on African-Americans in this country hence I think it would be best to stay far away from that.

I am not implying you are a racist and can affirmatively say that I believe you in good faith think that from your perspective calling him Fake is more of an insult than what you mean when you call him King Kong, but I think I can speak for some on this site who do find the latter far more problematic.  On behalf of them, I'd again suggest using some other label.  OO's biggest fans may defend him using the "Big O" moniker and may argue that you shouldn't call him the "Fake Big O" or whatever other name(s) you choose but they won't be saying it is an insult to African-Americans for you to do so and I think that is a meaningful difference.

[sturt]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

But they would be if the next "King Kong" movie was about a black man

 

But they won't, nor a white man, or an Asian man, because of course the sensible people understand that none of those are actually an ape.

And even though Micah Parsons seemingly would like to think there could be a black man... him... some day playing a Lion King, they won't make that movie either, because the story isn't about a man at all, but a lion.

The concern falls apart once we dismiss ignorant people as being irrelevant.

Same idea, said the other way, the concern only exists because we give ignorant people some status as being relevant.

We're never actually talking about degrading anyone for being the king of the jungle or the eighth wonder of the world... exact opposite, actually... but if Fake Big O is going to be bothered by ignorant people, then fine, let him be bothered... people with no maturity and no scruples who have chosen to disrespect NBA royalty (you see what I did there)... and, hear this, of his own race who actually was among the pioneers in breaking down racial barriers (that's just a bonus, but a huge one)... are deserving to be bothered.

 

G'nite.

 

[thecampster]

Am I the only one that thinks Okongwu is a bad ass name and doesn't beg a nickname?

 

[JeffS17]

Sturt, great to see you’re back, even if temporarily.  You’re completely off base on this one but great to see you post.  The judgement for whether or not likening a black players nickname to a monkey, or ape, or a giant fictitious ape in this instance, is not up to you— regardless of any written philosophical argument on the topic— but up to the player and the black community, collectively.  The part of this discussion that is absolutely not up for debate is the historical use of these terms by white supremacist groups and racist individuals, so I cannot fathom why you would want to go that route, regardless.

[Wretch]

I actually agree with you @sturt.  Double-O, OO, Yeka, OK (that's what I'd call him...and I'd say it like Lil' Jon. lol)...  That's all good.  He's way before my time, but you gotta respect the game man.

Not going to root against him, but I'm not calling him Big O.

[Phunkabilly]

I'm partial to King Gwu... i think it rolls off the tongue nicely.  

[TheFuzz]

8 hours ago, sturt said:

 

The concern falls apart once we dismiss ignorant people as being irrelevant.

Same idea, said the other way, the concern only exists because we give ignorant people some status as being relevant.

 

This is ironically pretty ignorant @sturt. @AHF is being quite lenient. As @JeffS17 said it ain't up to you and it doesn't take a high school English essay to get the point.

[thecampster]

4 hours ago, TheFuzz said:

This is ironically pretty ignorant @sturt. @AHF is being quite lenient. As @JeffS17 said it ain't up to you and it doesn't take a high school English essay to get the point.

Let's look at Intent. I dont think he intended to offend. I'd say let this go and move past it. Bigger fish to fry out there.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'm not going to call Okongwu "Big O".

And King Kong as his nickname is DEFINITELY a no-go for me. Calling a Black man that in this age of social media, would be a recipe for disaster.

Calling him Double O is just fine with me.

But surely someone can come up with a creative nickname that will stick.

This fan base came up with ISO Joe, a name that wasn't necessarily a term of endearment. But as he played throughout his career, it became one of the most iconic basketball names of the past 20 years.

As we watch this kid this season, let's see if we can come up with something that will fit Okongwu, and will stick.

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Let's look at Intent. I dont think he intended to offend. I'd say let this go and move past it. Bigger fish to fry out there.

I completely agree that he isn't intending to offend with the use of King Kong in the OP  on this thread.  My advice to him is that now that he knows that there are posters who are offended due to the historical linking of gorillas, apes, and monkeys with African-Americans that he pick something that isn't racially charged. 

(The mere fact that it might only be used that way by the ignorant doesn't diminish the offense.  I would consider anyone who uses the N word to be ignorant at best and that remains offensive even though it is only used by the ignorant.)

[shakes]

yep, as others have said calling a black person any sort of nickname that references a gorilla is about as textbook problematic as you can get these days...and even in days past.     @sturt can't be this ignorant.

 

I prefer the nickname I've been naturally calling him since he arrived....Yeka.  It rolls right off the tongue and isn't offensive like King Kong or The Big O, both of which are offensive but for very different reasons.   Big O isn't so much offensive as it is blatantly disrespectful.

[bleachkit]

Three years in the league and he still hasn't averaged over 10 points a game in any season. Not sure he even deserves a nickname.