The Big O (real, not fake)

[sturt]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:07 PM, REHawksFan said:

I offered a legitimate defense to my position that OO aka Big O he has a right to keep the nickname he's had since he was a kid

True.

 

On 10/21/2023 at 2:07 PM, REHawksFan said:

you summarily dismissed it not because it doesn't have merit but because it doesn't align with your opinion. 

False.

And that you present it that way is so ironic, because it demonstrates the problem... you... dismissed... the rationale/logic presented... rather than wrestle with the substance of the response that came back, you feel you can just dismiss it as "because it doesn't align with your opinion."

No, RE.

I said that it was fine for the kid OO to do that. I asserted that that all changes when you actually ascend to the being in the big leagues. I supported that conclusion, by simple logic... there is no ground for Oscar Robertson to get upset that a kid who doesn't even play in the NBA is enjoying the aplomb of borrowing the Big O brand. But then, simply logically, the analogy is stout that there would be nearly-unanimous mocking if a kid that had been referenced as the Human Highlight Film over his HS and college career came into the NBA and made an explicit effort to try to continue to promote himself as that... it never happens, and it never happens for-reason... such a move would be considered by those who knew about it, and especially us Hawks fans, and maybe most especially by Nique himself... as immature and disrespectful... but/and at the same time, weird... like, why would you even want to do that when there are so many other options... you can own your own brand (!). Why be so stubborn to hold on to what, you knew when you were a kid, had been attached for eternity to someone else?

[Insults deleted]

Rather, what I offered was substantive reasoning... deserving of either agreement (like that would ever happen, I know. I know), or disagreement supported by substance.

Address what was said, or don't. But mischaracterizing it is evidence you're just that tightly-gripped to your preferred conclusion, and see that as your only alternative since you see no better way to respond... and certainly aren't going to let yourself be able to separate the person you dislike from the conclusion you don't want to agree with.

 

On 10/21/2023 at 2:07 PM, REHawksFan said:

[I find it unhelpful to discussion to] speak down to others

Of the two of us, I speak down to other arguments/conclusions presented.

I take issue with the issue. You're welcome to consider that nefarious, but I don't (obviously). It's kinda, to me, the main thing we do on internet boards. And to the degree we keep things about the issue... (aside, a hallmark of this board through the decades, and that's thanks to all of us, and maybe me least of all if you go back and read things I posted when I was younger and more immature... ) we do discussion well.

[Moderator - Insulting other people is not allowed on the site so we are not defending insults to others]

So, in that spirit, I leave you with this vivid example.

I've not insulted you here. I've called out how you've responded, but that's different than calling you stupid or dumb or disingenuous. It just is. [As we've previously discussed, calling someone's post fake is not ok here.  Critiquing their ideas is fine.]

But yeah, it's your right. You can interpret whatever however you feel led to interpret, and conclude accordingly.

And it's okay for me (or anyone else) to choose to stick to substance. I highly recommend it [Streamline]

All I've got is some healthy respect for education, for sound reasoning, and for some widely-held principles/virtues like honoring those who are due honor and disrespecting disrespectful behaviors by those who choose not to.

That's my right.

(I really do have to get to work on my honey-do weekend project now, so by all means, crucify me if I come back to read anything else this weekend.)

 

[warcore]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:07 PM, REHawksFan said:

[Content focused on other poster deleted]

I offered a legitimate defense to my position that OO aka Big O he has a right to keep the nickname he's had since he was a kid back when this was first an issue for you last season. 

Per usual, you summarily dismissed it not because it doesn't have merit but because it doesn't align with your opinion. 

[I find it unhelpful to discussion to] speak down to others and [find nothing of real substance in posts] that ultimately boil down to "my opinion is superior to your because I said so."

[Content focused on other poster deleted]

 

 

[AHF]

@sturt - I think this may be the 5th thread you've raised on this topic.  Consider this the last and definitive thread.  The bashing of other posters by any poster will be pruned and anyone interested in discussing the use of nicknames can participate but please don't start more threads on the same topic.  The discussion has been one of diminishing returns on each new thread as many have already said what they want to say, and I think one thread is plenty as a focal point for conversation on this topic.

[sturt]

I don't know about 5, but maybe if you go back 12 months, you'll find 5. Maybe. Possible. I'm thinking it's 4, but whatever.

I do know that the only time in recent memory that a thread was started, it got shut down.

(I've let you know privately my thoughts on that decision, and let it go as far as this board is concerned. In fact, you'll be pleased to know that some of what you'd suggested resonated with me, and prompted me to ascend to the idea that... (a) though the King Kong thing may catch on with non-Hawks fans (who have no pre-set affinity for OO, obviously) and (b) may have hit OO squarely between the eyes in making the point that if you, OO, can't respect others worthy of respect, then it is also true that you are not worthy of respect in that vein... and too, (c) that I consider the only way for us to get past this kind of crap as a society is to actually stop being so presumptively allergic to avoid terms that, by our actual allergy, we are helping to sustain racist concepts (!) over the generations (!!!)... it would drive Hawks fans away unnecessarily because of the acutely sharp nature of the term. So, for our purposes here, counterproductive in a way that it wouldn't be counterproductive elsewhere necessarily.)

All due respect, did you prefer I go dig up a thread from 6 months ago, and resurrect that?

Just trying to put myself in the shoes of a mod/admin, I just don't get the reaction here. It's one thread. Among dozens. And for the most part, it's been kept within some guardrails of appealing to substance (... though, I cannot speak for any mods' modifying work, of course). If that's going to be the strict standard, then if consistently applied, that's going to have a much broader affect than just this topic... on any given day that one visits the board, comparing, say, even just two pages worth of threads, there's some significant overlap in topics that such a standard would have demanded threads be eliminated.

So, just being forthright and honest... this almost certainly won't be the last, unless (a) OO gets a blessing from Oscar to use his brand, (b) OO decides to embrace something else after all, or decides simply to tell those in his circle to stop using it, or (c) you and your friends in authority make it that way, and put the censoring hex on any further conversation... of those, one sticks out as far more likely than the other two... and yet, all I can ask is that you and your friends in authority to exercise discernment. You generally have always gotten kudos from me for your discernment, with a couple of notable exceptions the details of which I've mostly forgotten about on-purpose. But I also get the plausible point that it matters that my Hawks fandom is on hiatus until the owner sells the team or that there is explicitly visible and overwhelming evidence that the hamster wheel conclusion has been proven incorrect after all.... one's input is less welcome under those circumstances, and when others complain, no doubt, mods/admins feel they have to act in favor of those who make the board viable. Well taken, if that's so.

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, sturt said:

I don't know about 5, but maybe if you go back 12 months, you'll find 5. Maybe. Possible. I'm thinking it's 4, but whatever.

I do know that the only time in recent memory that a thread was started, it got shut down.

(I've let you know privately my thoughts on that decision, and let it go as far as this board is concerned. In fact, you'll be pleased to know that some of what you'd suggested resonated with me, and prompted me to ascend to the idea that... (a) though the King Kong thing may catch on with non-Hawks fans (who have no pre-set affinity for OO, obviously) and (b) may have hit OO squarely between the eyes in making the point that if you, OO, can't respect others worthy of respect, then it is also true that you are not worthy of respect in that vein... and too, (c) that I consider the only way for us to get past this kind of crap as a society is to actually stop being so presumptively allergic to avoid terms that, by our actual allergy, we are helping to sustain racist concepts (!) over the generations (!!!)... it would drive Hawks fans away unnecessarily because of the acutely sharp nature of the term. So, for our purposes here, counterproductive in a way that it wouldn't be counterproductive elsewhere necessarily.)

All due respect, did you prefer I go dig up a thread from 6 months ago, and resurrect that?

Just trying to put myself in the shoes of a mod/admin, I just don't get the reaction here. It's one thread. Among dozens. And for the most part, it's been kept within some guardrails of appealing to substance (... though, I cannot speak for any mods' modifying work, of course). If that's going to be the strict standard, then if consistently applied, that's going to have a much broader affect than just this topic... on any given day that one visits the board, comparing, say, even just two pages worth of threads, there's some significant overlap in topics that such a standard would have demanded threads be eliminated.

So, just being forthright and honest... this almost certainly won't be the last, unless (a) OO gets a blessing from Oscar to use his brand, (b) OO decides to embrace something else after all, or decides simply to tell those in his circle to stop using it, or (c) you and your friends in authority make it that way, and put the censoring hex on any further conversation... of those, one sticks out as far more likely than the other two... and yet, all I can ask is that you and your friends in authority to exercise discernment. You generally have always gotten kudos from me for your discernment, with a couple of notable exceptions the details of which I've mostly forgotten about on-purpose.

Asking you to keep this to a single thread isn't censoring or stopping you from having any conversation.  But we have gotten multiple complaints about these threads, and I think having the conversation focused on being civil, substantive, and focused on this thread is not asking very much.  

There isn't going to be much new ground to cover if things remain the status quo going forward (i.e., he simply keeps using the same nickname and Oscar isn't involved either to bless it or condemn it) and having the prior discussion consolidated into a single thread will help keep things substantive, imo.  Bearing that in mind, if there is any prior content you'd like to consolidate into this from prior threads just point me in the right direction, and I'm happy to do so.  But at least for the foreseeable future new threads on this same topic will be shut down, merged, etc. so spare yourself and us the trouble and just keep sharing your thoughts in this thread that you created.

[sturt]

11 hours ago, AHF said:

we have gotten multiple complaints about these threads

Of course you have. And it's terribly arrogant for me to point out, but since when have I ever been concerned about that... people get frustrated when they have a conclusion they prefer, and/but someone is able to support a different conclusion pretty solidly, and worse, able to surgically take apart whatever objections they've raised. That's why they complain.

Hey. I could complain. Right? Couldn't I? Aren't I the one taking all the meaningless insults? I'm the one being mocked. And I'm the one, still, being complained about because the insults and mockery don't appear to have any effect... that darn sturt just won't be knocked off his laser focus on substance. It bothers people, I'm sure. Enough that the frustration causes them, eventually not seeing any of the desired reaction, take it to a higher court.

I could complain. I don't complain. Because I understand that while there is an audience for all the silly crap, that's not my audience. That other audience defines themselves by their behavior. For the audience I look to appeal to, they recognize the difference between themselves and the rest... I have no need to draw those lines, they're vivid enough for the perceptive to pick up on.

12 hours ago, AHF said:

I think having the conversation focused on being civil, substantive, and focused on this thread is not asking very much.  

There isn't going to be much new ground to cover if things remain the status quo going forward (i.e., he simply keeps using the same nickname and Oscar isn't involved either to bless it or condemn it)

You say that. But that's up to Onyeka, not me. Not you, either. And "status quo" is opaque... likely to be stretched to mean whatever the complainers will want it to mean. If there is new news, though, there is new news. Onyeka has not already kicked this up to the volume he potentially could decide to kick it up to, nor the Hawks as an organization.

 

12 hours ago, AHF said:

But at least for the foreseeable future new threads on this same topic will be shut down, merged, etc. so spare yourself and us the trouble and just keep sharing your thoughts in this thread that you created.

If I may, AHF... this is different than complaining that Poster X is disrespecting Poster Y and other insiders, openly derisively insulting him as a liar.

Those were/are valid complaints. That got personal, and there was a whole lot of excuse-making, and no pretense of remorse going on.

This isn't anything like that. Arguments have been attacked, but no persons (... well, again... except for you know... me). I have not insulted any person. I have aggressively taken aim and fired at what few challenges were fired at my conclusion and support for my conclusion. Not people. Arguments.

 

So, look. I'm not the boss of you or anyone else here. Pardon the observation but I'm not persuaded you've thought very far ahead on this, and rather, that you're reacting to complainers who are complaining because their attempts at using mockery and very little in the way of substance as a counter to my posts have proven so impotent that it's half frustrating, half embarrassing to them. You're trying to cool the mob.

But the next time Onyeka ratchets up this issue, will the title of this thread necessarily call attention to how he chose to ratchet it up? Probably not. "The Big O (real, not fake)" is a thread created to achieve what it did achieve... as demonstrated... people readily understood, "Damn... it's pretty absurdly ridiculous that a 4th year non-starter wants to force someone with that resume' to share his brand."

For instance, let's say it's announced that the NBA is going to re-allow players just for the new mid-season tournament to wear jerseys with their nicknames. And, predictably, Onyeka makes it apparent he will wear Big O.

Sorry but that's unavoidably news. That's new news. That's ratcheting things up to a new level.

Hiding the conversation inside an old thread under such a generic title is exactly what the complainer mob will want to happen, though.

What's the right thing to do? Probably appeal to the complainer mob. I get it.

I don't have to like it. And I don't have to be scared to point out they are who they are, and that situation would be what that situation would be.

 

12 hours ago, AHF said:

Asking you to keep this to a single thread isn't censoring or stopping you from having any conversation.

First part last, we both know that the previous conversation was killed off, and maybe for a variety of reasons... I wasn't privy to your admin discussions, of course, and I don't even think I was paying attention to the thread when that decision was made... if memory serves, it was days if not a week later before I even knew it'd been shut down.

But that's all okay. I'm not really angry about that. I presumed at the time that some posters got unhinged, and of course, the title was inflammatory to some.

At the same time... repeating myself because obviously it merits repeating... why this topic and not myriad others that get overlapped and overlapped literally within a page or two of each other? I'm just one of those people that believe, until you establish a generic standard that is grounded in being unbiased toward anyone or any topic, all you're really accomplishing by issuing this edict is to affirm that complaints don't need to have any actual merit in order for complainers to achieve the desired outcome.

I've done nothing wrong here. Is 5x (assuming that number is right) in a year excessive to reintroduce the conversation? How many threads are there in a year? What is the ratio? Dunno. But regardless, I argue the right number is... the same as whatever the "right number" is for any other discussion... it's a matter of how often something came up to prompt the conversation. That's how it should be. For all people, for all topics.

G'nite.

[Sothron]

What is the actual point of this thread? Seriously? Anyone that knows any kind of NBA history knows who the real Big O was. OO will never be on that level. I don't think he should call himself that. I totally agree with you on that. But what is the point of it here? Does anyone here call him that? 

I call him OO because he's Double O. I will never call him Big O. I don't see anyone else doing it except perhaps to get a rise out of @sturt 

[kg01]

4 hours ago, Sothron said:

I call him OO because he's Double O. I will never call him Big O. I don't see anyone else doing it except perhaps to get a rise out of stu

Whaaat?  I'm sure no one would dream of doing such a thing .... 

[sturt]

6 hours ago, Sothron said:

I totally agree with you on that. But what is the point of it here? Does anyone here call him that? 

Thanks for asking a legit question.

The point of it here, I suppose, is that (a) yes, some people here appear to not just be yanking someone else's chain in order to achieve their own form of orgasm, and I'm led to that conclusion because they actually have attempted on occasion to make an argument to that conclusion. And one is left to presume that that hasn't changed for those individuals since they've not come back to a thread to talk about why/how they've changed their minds.

Then, (b) more publicly, Hawks social media have pushed the brand strikingly as-if unaware/uninformed.

And (c) strikingly, players continue to occasionally reference the young pup by that, so there's acceptance there. (As did the former GM and former head coach... not being one to watch pressers anymore, I cannot speak with any confidence about the current ones either way.)

 

The point, then, going along with your own paradigm, Soth, is that Hawks fans have it in their power to either actively go along, endorsing the immature kid's unprecedented attempt to wear a legend's brand... passively go along, leaving the impression it's all okay no matter what degree of conflicted feelings they have about it...  or actively, pointedly, reject his pursuit in clear terms, whether out of a motive of affection for legends in general or real Big O specifically, or whether out of a motive of... and get this... saving the kid from himself... because as you suggest, Soth, if/when he would ever become good enough that anyone outside of Hawkdom notices, there's going to be what amounts to a public spanking of Onyeka by national NBA media for having the balls to do what he's doing.

 

So. Look. Speaking to every person reading this, if you're one who wants to be and is going to be helpful, right now is that moment, not later. Yeka's on the precipice of becoming a starter in the opinion of many. He will become a figure of derision if he doesn't figure it out and change course, and same idea but from his own positive perspective, he has it in his power like any NBA player does to build his own brand. To the degree he insists on persisting with Big O, that's not going to go well. It really will be that much worse, in my opinion, than just going after any other NBA legend because there is an inherent ungratefulness implicit with a young man imposing on, not just a great player, but a person whose life has achieved great things for all NBA players off the court (free agency), and in particular, black players (civil rights work). He's going to get scoured. How hard is it to see that?

For his own good, his family, his agent... and you, his fans... need to correct what has already gotten too far out of hand, as demonstrated by his using the media day as his coming-out party, where he clearly wanted to begin promoting himself under someone else's brand.

That's why it's important. It's not super important. But it is important. At least, that is, to anyone who sees what Soth sees... this is going to end up being yet another reason that media and fans outside of Hawks-dom will have to look down on Hawks-dom... in so many words, it will go something like "Look at those inferior idiots who don't have any better scruples than that. And if any of them did see it coming, they chose to be silent... they didn't even bother to merely post on the most popular Hawks internet board to discourage the bad faith on Okongwu's part. Ridiculous."

[sturt]

48 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Whaaat?  I'm sure no one would dream of doing such a thing .... 

Not my audience. But I wish those kids great orgasms. Nothing to me.

[Gray Mule]

Which one are we talking about?  I get them confused.

T Model Ford or T Bird Ford.  After all, they are both T Fords!

Come on Sturt!

[sturt]

To which, Gray, I say... exactly.

The confusion is unnecessary.

And to which I say, too... please chew on your thinking a little here... the analogy you've chosen suggests equivocation (there is not, since one is vastly superior to the other) and an absence of any ethical concern (there is not, since most of us who appreciate/honor those due appreciation/honor consider that to be an ethical value all ought to embrace, not just some)... that, it's just a matter of an older version and a newer version. But the confusion is less the issue than the ethics... this has never been attempted, and it's never been attempted for reason.

Why are you wanting to defend this? I don't understand.

[HawksNWaffles]

I'm not sure what's happening here... so here's a pigeon

 

 

[RandomFan]

[sturt]

(like I said above, @AHF ... when people tell me they're not serious, that they have nothing to offer a conversation, I believe them. Nothing to me, tho amusing I suppose in some small way that it matters to them so much to try as hard as they do as persistently as they do.)

[BangHolman]

I can sum this thread up in 5 words: Old man yells at clouds.

[RedDawg#8]

Happy Tuesday, everyone!

Sending prayers that we all can continue to protect our peace.

Here’s to a successful 2023/24 season!

Go Hawks!!! (All of them)

[REHawksFan]

[sturt]

That said, @AHF, I'm not as completely dismissive of the unserious posts as I've let on.

There is an implicit sadness that people appear to be so persuaded... and this doesn't just apply to posters on this board, but in political circles, too... that they have no power to have any influence. They excuse themselves from doing what they can, as a consequence. They quit caring. They are quick to presume things don't matter, perhaps even as a way to justify to themselves that they point fingers at everyone else but themselves.

I just got back a month ago from spending time with my wife's family. The poverty there (Philippines) is crushing. Few poor Americans live under those conditions. Can't help but feel we take far too much for granted. The malaise... the apathy... some there feel is so much more justified, and yet, of those I know anyway, they don't get sucked into that and let it dominate their opinions of what is important, what they should care about. Admirable.

Probably something for the Politics & Religion forum ultimately.

[Spud2nique]

6 hours ago, Sothron said:

I will never call him Big O. I don't see anyone else doing it except perhaps to get a rise out of @sturt 

Dude, that’s been his nickname for a while here. I’m not gonna stop calling him that and it’s not to get a ride out of anyone. 
 

It’s like move bro dis $hit bigger than you. (Not you Soth the editorial “you” aka the people who nitpick nicknames)..

Look, if you are nitpicking a dudes nickname you have too much time to think, might I suggest a JOBBBBBBBBBB or a hobby.

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Whaaat?  I'm sure no one would dream of doing such a thing .... 

it’s all I live for. I’m taking the week off just to zing him