TRAE OR DJ OR BOTH

[bleachkit]

On 4/24/2024 at 1:13 PM, AHF said:

My personal view is that there isn't a way to make it work.  Neither player is fit to be a SG.  You could improve their interplay on offense (although 2 years in things don't look promising) but I don't think there is any way to make it work defensively.  They both make the other worse on that end when they play together.

If you want the best defensive team possible, trade Trae. If you want the best offensive team possible, trade Dejounte. Some other factors to consider, Dejounte has a cheaper contract, but Trae might yield more in a trade, at least I am presuming so. These are tough decisions for sure. I hope decisions are based purely on basketball, and not marketing, player/owner relationship, etc. 

[shakes]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Great defensive teams are defined by their frontcourt players

The guys you named don't play the type of defense that you all are expecting from Trae and DJ, other than Holiday and McConnell.

People act like Trae gives up 30 ppg.  This defense is still below average even when Trae is out of the lineup.  The reason for that is our frontcourt players are below average defenders.  Only JJ is right at average, and even he has glimpses of lack of off ball awareness.

And people always clown our ECF run, like we were fully healthy and just lucked up on wins.

• No Reddish until the ECF
• No Hunter after the Knicks series
• Won 2 games on the road @ New York
• Won 3 games on the road @ Philly
• Won Game 1 vs Milwaukee
• Had "The Knife" ( Solo ) playing key backup minutes at PF

That run wasn't luck.  That run was spurred on by our young up and coming stars playing up to their potential, with solid vets making up the supporting cast.  Lemon Pepper Lou and Gallo averaged 20 ppg combined off the bench.  Capela and Collins were our defensive rocks on the frontline.  Huerter made timely shots, and went into takeover mode in Game 7 vs Philly.  Trae was the engine that ran the show.

And I'm sorry, it's a loser mentality to say that the Hawks were ahead of schedule, which implied that they should've kept losing and not making the playoffs, just to get higher draft picks.  The mistake the Hawks front office made, is that they re-signed guys even after we proved the following season that we needed additional help. 

Plus our guys ( specifically our frontline guys ), have been injury prone.  That kills your team chemistry, and especially your defensive continuity. It leads to guys like Nate playing TLC or guys like Quin playing Saddiq Bey as your PF in small frontline lineups.

 

Nice to see someone has taken up the Homers lament 101, we're bad because of injuries!!!!!  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, shakes said:

Nice to see someone has taken up the Homers lament 101, we're bad because of injuries!!!!!  

Nope. You're the one making injury and fear excuses for the team's we beat in that playoff run. 

But when it comes to the Hawks, no excuses allowed. 

Hawks have had a below average frontline for years now. The entire team collapses when just one frontline guy is out, because we either:

- opt to play a smaller player on the frontline 

- can't play our reserve bigs because they suck

- didn't take time to develop our younger bigs

And then we trade off players and don't even replace them. And we expect the frontcourt and the team defense to be OK?

 

[Atlantaholic]

10 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Great defensive teams are defined by their frontcourt players

The guys you named don't play the type of defense that you all are expecting from Trae and DJ, other than Holiday and McConnell.

People act like Trae gives up 30 ppg.  This defense is still below average even when Trae is out of the lineup.  The reason for that is our frontcourt players are below average defenders.  Only JJ is right at average, and even he has glimpses of lack of off ball awareness.

And people always clown our ECF run, like we were fully healthy and just lucked up on wins.

• No Reddish until the ECF
• No Hunter after the Knicks series
• Won 2 games on the road @ New York
• Won 3 games on the road @ Philly
• Won Game 1 vs Milwaukee
• Had "The Knife" ( Solo ) playing key backup minutes at PF

That run wasn't luck.  That run was spurred on by our young up and coming stars playing up to their potential, with solid vets making up the supporting cast.  Lemon Pepper Lou and Gallo averaged 20 ppg combined off the bench.  Capela and Collins were our defensive rocks on the frontline.  Huerter made timely shots, and went into takeover mode in Game 7 vs Philly.  Trae was the engine that ran the show.

And I'm sorry, it's a loser mentality to say that the Hawks were ahead of schedule, which implied that they should've kept losing and not making the playoffs, just to get higher draft picks.  The mistake the Hawks front office made, is that they re-signed guys even after we proved the following season that we needed additional help. 

Plus our guys ( specifically our frontline guys ), have been injury prone.  That kills your team chemistry, and especially your defensive continuity. It leads to guys like Nate playing TLC or guys like Quin playing Saddiq Bey as your PF in small frontline lineups.

 

That team was pretty special second half of the season, but we've been going backwards and the rest of the league has been going forwards.

[theheroatl]

14 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

That team was pretty special second half of the season, but we've been going backwards and the rest of the league has been going forwards.

If you notice, we substituted defensive players for offensive players.. thats why we went downhill.

 

Kris Dunn
Delon Wright
Solo
Rondo
Tony Snell

We had the 12th ranked defense that season. 
That was outrageously different than what we've seen since then.

 

We then were then
21st in defense in 2021-22,
then 26th in 22-23,
now 28th in defense in 23-24.
 

Our offense is

13th in 2020-2021.
6th in 21-22,
3rd last year,
top 5 this year,

 

OUR OFFENSE GOT BETTER AND OUR DEFENSE GOT MUCH WORSE...

THAT IS WHY WE LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

There is so much debate here, this player this, this player that, quin does this, quin does that, traes the problem, dj's the problem... nobody ever gets their head out of the sand and demands why our defense has consistently sucked and why it's not getting fixed.
 

Edited May 9 by theheroatl

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, theheroatl said:

If you notice, we substituted defensive players for offensive players.. thats why we went downhill.

 

Kris Dunn
Delon Wright
Solo
Rondo
Tony Snell

We had the 12th ranked defense that season. 
That was outrageously different than what we've seen since then.

 

We then were then
21st in defense in 2021-22,
then 26th in 22-23,
now 28th in defense in 23-24.
 

Our offense is

13th in 2020-2021.
6th in 21-22,
3rd last year,
top 5 this year,

 

OUR OFFENSE GOT BETTER AND OUR DEFENSE GOT MUCH WORSE...

THAT IS WHY WE LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

There is so much debate here, this player this, this player that, quin does this, quin does that, traes the problem, dj's the problem... nobody ever gets their head out of the sand and demands why our defense has consistently sucked and why it's not getting fixed.
 

Had written out a bigger message, but it’s important to remember accurately.  During the 27-11 streak and ECF run we did NOT play Kris Dunn much.  Delon Wright and Rondo were not even on the roster, traded Rondo for Lou.  

Solo played a ton of minutes, but Capela was DPOY level.  He got injured and lost his burst.  The guards were not defensive players at all.  Front line was unlocked Capela, Collins, and Solo.  But Capela was like an MVP candidate for a stint.  He carried the defense and was even a more fit roll partner on offense.  

When his injury hampered him we became a .500 team.  We never replaced that production.  

[theheroatl]

27 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Had written out a bigger message, but it’s important to remember accurately.  During the 27-11 streak and ECF run we did NOT play Kris Dunn much.  Delon Wright and Rondo were not even on the roster, traded Rondo for Lou.  

Solo played a ton of minutes, but Capela was DPOY level.  He got injured and lost his burst.  The guards were not defensive players at all.  Front line was unlocked Capela, Collins, and Solo.  But Capela was like an MVP candidate for a stint.  He carried the defense and was even a more fit roll partner on offense.  

When his injury hampered him we became a .500 team.  We never replaced that production.  

The defensive statistic is based on the whole season. Our defense was very good before the trade deadline.

The bit about Capela is true but Snell, Solo and Rondo did play a big part in the first half of the season to help the defensive statistic.

 

Granted, we haven't seen any defenders on this roster as good as them besides maybe Kobe (very raw) since then.

Edited May 9 by theheroatl

[macdaddy]

Hawks, Knicks, Celtics, Pacers were all pretty middle of the road regular season teams in 20-21.   

Since then the key players acquired

Celtics: Jrue, White, Porz

Knicks: Brunson, OG, Hart, devencizo, Hartenstein

Pacers: Hali, Siakam, Nesmith

Hawks: Murray, Bey 

 

[Final_quest]

29 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Hawks, Knicks, Celtics, Pacers were all pretty middle of the road regular season teams in 20-21.   

Since then the key players acquired

Celtics: Jrue, White, Porz

Knicks: Brunson, OG, Hart, devencizo, Hartenstein

Pacers: Hali, Siakam, Nesmith

Hawks: Murray, Bey 

 

Boston was stacked and had been in the conference finals most years going back to 2016.  2020-21 was the only year of the past 8 seasons where they finished middle of the road.   

The Knicks and Pacers didn't sign stupid contracts for guys like Hunter and Collins, or trade all their draft capital for a poor fit like Murray.  When you have untradeable contracts and zero draft capital it limits your options to improve.  We actually have more committed salary than either of those teams. Our mistakes were from decisions on what we invested in and that limited our ability to add talent.  

A trade involving Murray is the key for us to improve.  We don't have much in the way of assets apart from that.  

Hawks have $163M committed next year.

NYK: $145M

Pacers: $107M

Salary table:

[macdaddy]

My point is only that all those guys were on the move the last three years and several we could have as easily acquired as the team that ultimately did.  Boston got White for basically a first and a pick swap.  This was months before we'd send 3 first for DJ (i think).   It's not just hindsight to think that good basketball minds could have seen that the actual shooting guard in SA would be a better fit than DJ and at a smaller cost.   

Similarly we had the assets to acquire OG.  No idea why we didn't do it.  Knicks didn't even give up a first.  

Josh Hart a protected first.  So we know why we didn't do that i guess. 

Donte signed a pretty cheap fa deal.

 

Anyway, as hard as it's made out to be, there are ways to get difference makers even if you're sitting on bad contracts.  

[KB21]

16 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

My point is only that all those guys were on the move the last three years and several we could have as easily acquired as the team that ultimately did.  Boston got White for basically a first and a pick swap.  This was months before we'd send 3 first for DJ (i think).   It's not just hindsight to think that good basketball minds could have seen that the actual shooting guard in SA would be a better fit than DJ and at a smaller cost.   

Similarly we had the assets to acquire OG.  No idea why we didn't do it.  Knicks didn't even give up a first.  

Josh Hart a protected first.  So we know why we didn't do that i guess. 

Donte signed a pretty cheap fa deal.

 

Anyway, as hard as it's made out to be, there are ways to get difference makers even if you're sitting on bad contracts.  

I really wonder how Toronto got suckered into taking on RJ Barrett's contract.  

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

I really wonder how Toronto got suckered into taking on RJ Barrett's contract.  

He's from Toronto.

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

He's from Toronto.

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

My point is only that all those guys were on the move the last three years and several we could have as easily acquired as the team that ultimately did.  Boston got White for basically a first and a pick swap.  This was months before we'd send 3 first for DJ (i think).   It's not just hindsight to think that good basketball minds could have seen that the actual shooting guard in SA would be a better fit than DJ and at a smaller cost.   

Similarly we had the assets to acquire OG.  No idea why we didn't do it.  Knicks didn't even give up a first.  

Josh Hart a protected first.  So we know why we didn't do that i guess. 

Donte signed a pretty cheap fa deal.

 

Anyway, as hard as it's made out to be, there are ways to get difference makers even if you're sitting on bad contracts.  

We did not pull the right strings.  Committed to the wrong pieces.  

Quickley was the prize for OG.  He was a top FA going into next year.  I don’t think Toronto will be happy they made that move, but at least they got a building block.  Not sure who we had to offer that beats Quickley.  Not AJ or even Bufkin, and we probably didn’t want to send Okongwu.  

One reason I was glad to trade Huerter was it gives us a first to trade for someone like Josh Hart or Derrick White.  Huerter would be redundant for us with Bogi.  
 

[macdaddy]

35 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

We did not pull the right strings.  Committed to the wrong pieces.  

Quickley was the prize for OG.  He was a top FA going into next year.  I don’t think Toronto will be happy they made that move, but at least they got a building block.  Not sure who we had to offer that beats Quickley.  Not AJ or even Bufkin, and we probably didn’t want to send Okongwu.  

One reason I was glad to trade Huerter was it gives us a first to trade for someone like Josh Hart or Derrick White.  Huerter would be redundant for us with Bogi.  
 

Quickley?  You don't think they would rather have Murray.  He was already on the block when this trade went down.   Murray + Bey/AJ or heck maybe even Hunter but not sure it would be necessary + a 2nd.   That beats Quickley+RJ doesn't it.  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

5 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Boston was stacked and had been in the conference finals most years going back to 2016.  2020-21 was the only year of the past 8 seasons where they finished middle of the road.   

The Knicks and Pacers didn't sign stupid contracts for guys like Hunter and Collins, or trade all their draft capital for a poor fit like Murray.  When you have untradeable contracts and zero draft capital it limits your options to improve.  We actually have more committed salary than either of those teams. Our mistakes were from decisions on what we invested in and that limited our ability to add talent.  

A trade involving Murray is the key for us to improve.  We don't have much in the way of assets apart from that.  

Hawks have $163M committed next year.

NYK: $145M

Pacers: $107M

Salary table:

 

A trade involving Murray isn't the key for us to improve, because we're still keeping the same guys that we grossly overpaid for.  Some of those guys have declined, while others haven't improved.

• Capela - declined
• Bogi - stagnant
• Hunter - slightly improved offensively, stagnant overall

That's the core players that should've been involved in deals that bought us back better fitting pieces, while keep our top level guys intact.  But now, we're talking about switching out one of our top 2 guys, but keeping the "Mediocre 3" in place for another season?

Murray, at minimum, is a borderline All-Star talent.   If you trade him for a better defensive option at the 2, you're still asking Trae to do a hell of a lot on offense.  If you trade him for role players + picks, that's a signal to Trae that we're not about winning, and you may lose him too.

When talking about winning teams in the playoffs, you need

• at least 2 All-Star caliber players who can get you a bucket.  Preferably with one of those All-Stars playing at MVP level
• a 3rd guy who can get you a bucket or knock down critical shot
• a frontline who can defend at a high level
• random role players who can make key offensive or defensive plays in the middle of game.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

but keeping the "Mediocre 3" in place for another season?

 

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Murray, at minimum, is a borderline All-Star talent. 

I think this is the elephant in the room.  I fully admit to thinking this when we acquired him but not anymore.  He's an ok defender on PGs, his shooting has improved for sure but he mainly just goes to that pull up mid ranger all time.  He avoids contact on the offensive end and isn't that good at getting to the line.   He also has an extremely loose handle.

He'll be a really good PG for someone.  He'd be a great sixth man honestly.  If he played for a contending team that might push him into an all star game but i don't know.  He just does a bunch of things well and nothing really great except that mid ranger.  He is clutch though so on a winning team that could be big.   

I just feel like his value is as high as it's going to get right now so it's our best chance to get more pieces that fit better.  

 

 

[KB21]

No.  Trying to keep Trae and DJM together when it's obvious that they will never play with any synergy isn't going to allow them to keep Trae around.  It's just not going to work with those two.  The perimeter defense is too bad when they are on the floor together, and their offensive games do not complement one another.  

[Spud2nique]

5 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Josh Hart

I dunno I like this dude, not as much as OG by any means but he really seems solid all around. I want that type of DNA on the Hawks squad whatever that is.