Why can't Kyle Korver elevate his level of play?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Kyle leads the team by far with a +7.9 on/ off court net.

Dude . . forget those stats.

What I want to see out of him, is what he did tonight. Come out firing and looking for his shot. He took 5 shots in that 1st quarter alone, making 2 threes. And had the rest of the team not stepped up and made shots, I would want him to look for his shot in the 2nd half as well.

I just don't know why people make excuses for Kyle. IF others need to step up, he definitely does too. He, Lou, and Mike Scott set the tone tonight for the rest of the team. Then once Millsap got going, it was lights out.

But there will be games in which Kyle will need to assert himself and really look for his shot, or work even harder to get shots.

Edited January 26, 2014 by TheNorthCydeRises

[benhillboy]

Dude . . forget those stats.

My error, that stat is almost 2 weeks old, I'm sure it may have dipped a little. But yes, by all means, please disregard my season-long stat, and let us behold your 13-game sample size without Al.

[Jody23]

Though not to the same degree, this debate reminds me of the Joe Johnson debacle. Joe was given a huge contract to be a superstar and elevate this team to a championship. Problem is, we knew Joe wan't that guy. Though good, he wasn't/isn't in the same category with LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Durant...legit superstars and sure fire Hall of Famers. Is that Joe's fault? No. It's just the way it was/is. The ASG gave him that huge contract. He didn't give it to himself. However, giving him that kind of deal wasn't going to all of sudden change him or elevate his game to superstar status and it was dumb of the front office to think it would.Many here argue that Kyle, a specialist type of player, got overpaid by Ferry. At six million per, I can understand that criticism. And here we are with argument that he is the 6 million dollar man now and should be doing more. Well, we knew Korver was specialist last year. We've actually known that for his entire career. Him getting 6 million per, whether you agree with it or not, is not going to change who is and what he is or isn't capable of. He's STILL a specialist. Just like paying Joe 120 million didn't change him into a superstar.

[tbhawksfan]

I think you some of you guys are really underrating Horford's importance to this team. I'm surprised our offense still runs, we only have nobody who can get their own shot and only two players that really need to be keyed on: Millsap and Korver (three when Teague decides to show up).While it's never bad to wish a player could do better, Korver can't get open as easily now. I cab see why you would think that's not worth 6+ mil a year, but I think a few GMs would disagree with you.

Then we should have them on the phone asap

[Guest]

This thread makes me feel as though some squawkers are looking at the games but not watching them. What the hell do you want Korver to do, run the point? Get a quadruple double? How bout a 360 windmill dunk? Korver is one of the hardest working and most professional guys in the entire league. Smh.

[MaceCase]

Though not to the same degree, this debate reminds me of the Joe Johnson debacle. Joe was given a huge contract to be a superstar and elevate this team to a championship. Problem is, we knew Joe wan't that guy. Though good, he wasn't/isn't in the same category with LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Durant...legit superstars and sure fire Hall of Famers. Is that Joe's fault? No. It's just the way it was/is. The ASG gave him that huge contract. He didn't give it to himself. However, giving him that kind of deal wasn't going to all of sudden change him or elevate his game to superstar status and it was dumb of the front office to think it would.Many here argue that Kyle, a specialist type of player, got overpaid by Ferry. At six million per, I can understand that criticism. And here we are with argument that he is the 6 million dollar man now and should be doing more. Well, we knew Korver was specialist last year. We've actually known that for his entire career. Him getting 6 million per, whether you agree with it or not, is not going to change who is and what he is or isn't capable of. He's STILL a specialist. Just like paying Joe 120 million didn't change him into a superstar.

The great irony or hypocrisy here is that the thread starter was the biggest defender of the Joe contract, constantly made claims that the finances shouldn't matter to teams trying to win, constantly made excuses for why Joe never stepped up when it mattered blaming every other member of the team themselves for not stepping up to help him and yet here he is.....being so cap conscious all of a sudden.

I mean there is some validity to the argument but I always have to stop and consider the source and remember that the OP has been a big detractor of Kyle ever since the beginning and even now still refuses to recognize either him or his contributions as one of the additional positive assets that the Hawks received as part of the Joe trade. Kyle is on the equivalent of a Mid Level Exception deal, I believe that he's giving the team what you'd expect from a mid-level player in this league.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The great irony or hypocrisy here is that the thread starter was the biggest defender of the Joe contract, constantly made claims that the finances shouldn't matter to teams trying to win, constantly made excuses for why Joe never stepped up when it mattered blaming every other member of the team themselves for not stepping up to help him and yet here he is.....being so cap conscious all of a sudden.

I mean there is some validity to the argument but I always have to stop and consider the source and remember that the OP has been a big detractor of Kyle ever since the beginning and even now still refuses to recognize either him or his contributions as one of the additional positive assets that the Hawks received as part of the Joe trade. Kyle is on the equivalent of a Mid Level Exception deal, I believe that he's giving the team what you'd expect from a mid-level player in this league.

LOL @ cap conscious. Teams get in trouble for overpaying for mid level type players and signing them to longer than necessary contracts ( Marvin, Bibby, etc . . . ). Star players who may not play like superstars on a nightly basis, still give you valuable contributions. But when mid-level players aren't doing what they're supposed to do, or can't raise their games to the next level when people get hurt, that's when a team gets in trouble.

The entire point of this thread was that if people were going to point out how others on the team needed to play better ( i.e. - Teague and Lou ), the same applied to Kyle Korver. But all throughout this thread, all you saw were excuses as to WHY he couldn't play better. Why he couldn't do this or that. My point was that he simply had to work harder than what he was doing, especially when people are out. I wasn't asking him to turn into Larry Bird. I was asking him to be more consistent and elevate his level of play.

9 ppg from a guy who is now the 3rd best player on the floor, isn't going to cut it.

If people go down, Korver needs to step up . . by any means necessary. IF that meant finding spaces in the defense to receive the ball for long 2's instead of 3s, so be it. If that means busting his azz to get out in transition to make himself available for a transition 3, so be it.

He came out very aggressive last night, taking 5 shots in the 1st quarter. Thankfully, the bench came in and blew the game open, so it wasn't necessary for Kyle to be overly aggressive and look for his shot. But in those nights in which we need offense, it's Kyle ( the 3rd highest paid player, and probably the 3rd best player on the team ), that needs to do more. DeMarre Carroll is stepping up more these days. All I asked was for Kyle to do the same.

************************

As for Joe Johnson, I've always stated that one of his major flaws as a player was that he didn't just let the ball fly at times. All of that dribbling to set up his shot had its good and bad momens. But the fact that he didn't catch and shoot the ball more, to get up more shots, was a major flaw in his game. I was always encouraging JJ to take even more shots than he was taking, instead of deferring to outside perimeter shots from Josh. You're seeing just how lethal the catch and shoot game can be from him, with what he's doing in Brooklyn on occasion. JJ was paid like a superstar, but he didn't have a superstar mentality offensively.

Teams that REALLY try to win, aren't scared of the Luxury Tax. It is a FACT that the Hawks never went all out financially ( even for just one season ) to see if they could get to the next level. When the "Medium 3" ( JJ, Josh, Al ) were in their prime, ownership never added that extra piece, via the MLE, to that squad. Other playoff level squads had no problem doing it, even if it put them into Luxury Tax land for a year.

[benhillboy]

Dude is still Top 3 League-wide in eFG% and True Shooting. Also Top 50 in the league in assist to turnover ratio while handling the ball a fraction of everyone else on the list.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Dude is still Top 3 League-wide in eFG% and True Shooting. Also Top 50 in the league in assist to turnover ratio while handling the ball a fraction of everyone else on the list.

That is great Ben. But if he's not getting those shots up ( and making them ), the eFG% really doesn't matter much.

My point in this thread was that when people go down, or if people aren't producing, he needs to try to do more offensively to help the team. He's the shot maker on the team, so he needs to knock down shots.

Last night's 3 - 4 from 3 performance and 12 points overall, is good when everyone is playing well. But when people aren't on their games, it may not be enough. His production is vital to the teams' success.

Just in the last 14 games ( since Al has been down ), when Korver scores in double-figures, we're 6 - 0.

When Korver doesn't score in double figures, we're 1 - 7 . . and that one win was saved by Pero's luck 3 in the Charlotte game.

But people act like Korver can just coast along and not try to do more with Horford out? We need his production more than ever.

[supermariowest]

Also since when is 35 percent so bad shooting from 3 that's like 50 per from 2 last I checked I will certainly take that for a slump and the team not getting him the ball on the times he is open of course less these days due to all the attention. This team needs to get healthy ASAP..

Here we go with the advanced stats to try to cover up for poor play.

Uh, what? What advanced stats? There is nothing advanced about an expected value. Shooting 35% from three is essentially the same as shooting 50% from two: 0.35(3) = 1.05, 0.50(2) = 1.

Is the contract too long? Maybe, that's debatable, but it sounds like you want him to start playing like JR Smith. Kyle works hard to get open and he's only going to take open shots. He's not going to start taking bad shots just because we're dealing with injuries. No sense in starting bad habits. As others have pointed out, it seems you expect him to shoot 75% from three, run the point, and serve up some windmill 360 dunks.

Edited January 26, 2014 by supermariowest

[Plainview1981]

Expecting a 32 year old to play at a level he hasn't played while being in the league 10+ years is crazy.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Uh, what? What advanced stats? There is nothing advanced about an expected value. Shooting 35% from three is essentially the same as shooting 50% from two: 0.35(3) = 1.05, 0.50(2) = 1.

Is the contract too long? Maybe, that's debatable, but it sounds like you want him to start playing like JR Smith. Kyle works hard to get open and he's only going to take open shots. He's not going to start taking bad shots just because we're dealing with injuries. No sense in starting bad habits. As others have pointed out, it seems you expect him to shoot 75% from three, run the point, and serve up some windmill 360 dunks.

You guys still don't get it.

With Teague, people are literally begging him to be more aggressive. To do more on offense to help the team win. But when the same is asked from Korver, there is a problem?

Being aggressive for Korver, means working even harder to get open, and getting up shots with any amount of daylight he has, because he is one of the better shooters on the team.

The funny thing about JR Smith, is that he IS a 35% 3 point shooter. And what do we know about JR Smith? He's erratic as hell as a shooter. And most guys who shoot 35% from 3, fit that category.

All I'm asking from Korver is to get up more shots. Instead of 8 shots a game, try to get up 11 or 12 shots a game. If his shooting has fallen off since Horford went down, he needs to get up more shots so that we can get adequate production out of him.

Is that unreasonable to ask of him?

Many people believe he's the 3rd best player on the team. And he's definitely the 3rd highest paid player on the team. So shouldn't one of the better players be asked to do more to help his team, if others go down?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Expecting a 32 year old to play at a level he hasn't played while being in the league 10+ years is crazy.

So what does that mean Hot? Does that mean we made a mistake signing him up for 4 years at 6 mill a year? Because if we can't ask Korver to do a little more when people go down with injury, we're wasting money.

I really don't see what the big deal is in asking Korver to do more. To be more aggressive. To work even harder to get shots up, whether they be 3s or long 2s.

[High5]

You don't look to your 3pt specialist when your All Star center goes down. Obviously he's going to have a more difficult time getting good looks without Horford on the floor. It's not like he can work any harder at moving without the basketball. The streak has given him a lot of attention as well. Every team is working extra hard trying to end it. It's up to other players to relieve the pressure or take advantage of it.

[supermariowest]

You guys still don't get it.

With Teague, people are literally begging him to be more aggressive. To do more on offense to help the team win. But when the same is asked from Korver, there is a problem?

Being aggressive for Korver, means working even harder to get open, and getting up shots with any amount of daylight he has, because he is one of the better shooters on the team.

The funny thing about JR Smith, is that he IS a 35% 3 point shooter. And what do we know about JR Smith? He's erratic as hell as a shooter. And most guys who shoot 35% from 3, fit that category.

All I'm asking from Korver is to get up more shots. Instead of 8 shots a game, try to get up 11 or 12 shots a game. If his shooting has fallen off since Horford went down, he needs to get up more shots so that we can get adequate production out of him.

Is that unreasonable to ask of him?

Many people believe he's the 3rd best player on the team. And he's definitely the 3rd highest paid player on the team. So shouldn't one of the better players be asked to do more to help his team, if others go down?

Get up more shots even if he doesn't have an open look? That doesn't sound like elevating your play. "Adequate production" isn't shooting the ball more. The thread title should have been: Why can't Kyle Korver play some inefficient basketball?

Would it be great if Korver could get a few more shots per gamer? Yes, of course. Do I want Korver taking bad shots because he's the third highest paid player on the team (sans Al)? No, definitely not. He can earn his $6.7 million by playing smart basketball and hitting open shots.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

You don't look to your 3pt specialist when your All Star center goes down. Obviously he's going to have a more difficult time getting good looks without Horford on the floor. It's not like he can work any harder at moving without the basketball. The streak has given him a lot of attention as well. Every team is working extra hard trying to end it. It's up to other players to relieve the pressure or take advantage of it.

So I guess I need to drop this subject.

The consensus is either that

1) Korver is incapable to do any more than what he's doing now, which means he can't elevate his game

or

2) Korver gets a complete pass from most of the fan base when he plays below standards, while the rest of the guys will get criticized when they play below standards.

SMH . . . Jodie Meeks, a guy who is essentially a 3 point specialist ( 50% of his shots are 3s ) . . scored 24 points today on 8 - 13 FG . . 6 - 8 3FG.

In January, with All-NBA Kobe Bryant not around, Jodie went from scoring 12.6 ppg in December, to a career high 18.3 ppg so far in January. He elevated his game and became a much more aggressive shooter/scorer.

[Sothron]

What can you expect Korver to do now at 32 that he didn't do at 22? Or 26? He is not worth the deal we gave him, I said it at the time and I'll say it now. He's a specialist and he'd be a perfect fit for the Heat or Thunder or some team like that with established superstars that would let him eat uncontested threes almost all game long.

That is not the case here. Korver is an efficient player but he's not ever going to be more than fourth scoring option on a championship level team.

[cam1218]

I can't believe this thread even exists. We all know what Korver is here for and he excels at his job. He isn't here to dribble and shoot threes like guys like JR. He moves around and draws a lot of attention from the opposing defense. His movement helps make our offense work and gets guys like DMC shots because the defense is focused on Korver.If you watch every single game, I don't get how you can dislike Korver. Especially after watching Josh Smith play for the last several years. I love smart and unselfish players like Korver and he and his contract are the least of our worries.

[DrReality]

He's a one trick pony and defenses know how to handle him.

[macdaddy]

I can't believe this thread even exists. We all know what Korver is here for and he excels at his job.He isn't here to dribble and shoot threes like guys like JR. He moves around and draws a lot of attention from the opposing defense. His movement helps make our offense work and gets guys like DMC shots because the defense is focused on Korver.If you watch every single game, I don't get how you can dislike Korver. Especially after watching Josh Smith play for the last several years. I love smart and unselfish players like Korver and he and his contract are the least of our worries.

THANK YOU! Good lord.