Rudy Gay to Hawks in 4 team trade rumor????

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, Spud2Nique said:

I dunno about that. I think you are neglecting the fact that he came off a significant injury. Remember how good he was the year before? He was an all star. I have a hunch this season will be more like 2 years ago. Also, name a trade that would make sense involving Kyle, it's impossible. Lol.  A trade where the salaries and talent match. It's like saying a word that rythmes with orange.

You mean the Kyle that averaged 7.5 ppg and had a 127 defensive rating on defense, while playing 28 min/gm in the Cleveland series?  That Kyle?

In 4 games he only got up 23 shots in that series.  And despite his tremendous 48% FG and 44% 3FG, he was a non-factor.  That's part of the issue.

On a team without an Alpha Dog scorer, a guy like Kyle can't be limited by our opponent like that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

40 minutes ago, AHF said:

Let's also keep in mind that basketball is a team game.  Korver did have an impact on the game - he got the Cavs to overcommit to paying defensive attention to him.  His defender was pretty much utterly incapable of helping because he was crammed up Korver's ummm posterior.  Why didn't they defend the whole team like that?  Because it creates liabilities in team defense.  The problem we had was that no one other than Dennis was able to exploit the impact of his defensive assignment.  Korver can't do it on his own.  At all.  That is what the playoffs made clear.  What the rest of the team was unable to do was essentially exploit a 4 on 4 situation - which should be an advantage for the offense but wasn't because of how timid most of our guys played and how physically dominated they were by their counterparts.

I'll totally agree that I wanted to see Korver benched a lot more than series because of his lack of impact but one element of that is that his teammates couldn't exploit the adjustments the Cavs made to religiously blanketing Korver.  When you can't exploit that, it loses value but that is on his teammates as much as on Korver.

So it's Korver's teammates fault that they're not good enough one on one players to force teams to lag off of Kyle, so that he can get his shot off?

Couldn't Kyle's teammates say the same about him?

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

You mean the Kyle that averaged 7.5 ppg and had a 127 defensive rating on defense, while playing 28 min/gm in the Cleveland series?  That Kyle?

In 4 games he only got up 23 shots in that series.  And despite his tremendous 48% FG and 44% 3FG, he was a non-factor.  That's part of the issue.

On a team without an Alpha Dog scorer, a guy like Kyle can't be limited by our opponent like that.

Yup, the same one that was an all star and shot 90/50/40.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So it's Korver's teammates fault that they're not good enough one on one players to force teams to lag off of Kyle, so that he can get his shot off?

Couldn't Kyle's teammates say the same about him?

There's a heirarchy of expectations that I have for our players based on their skillsets. None of our other Allstars were able to elevate their games when needed based on the understanding that Cleveland was locked in on Kyle and took him out. They did nothing to force Cleveland to adjust their coverage on Kyle.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

30 minutes ago, Spud2Nique said:

Yup, the same one that was an all star and shot 90/50/40.

So which one would you rather have?

A 50/40/90 guy who is an All-Star ... averaging 12 ppg?

Or an impact scorer that could possibly win a playoff game with a 25+ point night?

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So which one would you rather have?

A 50/40/90 guy who is an All-Star ... averaging 12 ppg?

Or an impact scorer that could possibly win a playoff game with a 25+ point night?

Wait, who is the 25ppg player that will win a playoff game?

[macdaddy]

Korver, even last year, did his job of attracting attention.   How many 7 ppg guys are the number One concern on the oppositions gameplan?

 

Quote

The Cavs entered their series against Atlanta with a specific game plan. They wanted to limit sharpshooter Kyle Korver, the Hawks' most important player, who shot 40 percent on three-pointers in the regular season.

"If we can limit Korver to one shot, that's big for us," Lue reiterated Tuesday.

....

The Cavs are hoping they have the same success in this series, with the plan centering on Korver. It worked in Game 1, limiting the long-range specialist to three points on one shot.

J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert got the bulk of credit for their continuous effort, chasing Korver around a plethora of screens and not letting him get clean looks at the basket. But it was a team effort -- more evidence of following the game plan perfectly.

"When Korver did shake free I thought our other guys like LeBron did a good job of seeing that and being aware of that and switching out and taking Korver," Lue said. "Just tried to limit his shots because we know he's dangerous and when he plays well they play well. So we know he's a very big piece."

While Korver is the top name on the scouting report, there's also a specific design -- one that led to Irving's initial bewilderment -- for the Hawks' point guard tandem, Jeff Teague and Schröder. The message has been to go under screens and invite the ultra-quick point guards to take outside shots, the same strategy as last year in the conference finals. Just keep them out of the paint.

 

Hopefully we now have a team where shutting down Korver and going under on screens isn't a gameplan that leads to a sweep.   I think the new lineup should help open things up.

 

[Admin]

10 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Do most of you trust Bud in his development and use of players?  If you do, why don't you believe he could maximize the abilities of a good offensive conplimentary player like Rudy Gay?

At the very least, you're talking about a guy who would be a tremendous 6th man off the bench to provide scoring for the 2nd unit.  Right now though, he'd be the best wing player on the team.

Despite the addition of Dwight and the rookies, the Hawks still don't have a guy who can offensively close out a game or consistently create AND make a shot.

Rudy can do both.

Let's understand one thing about this team.  Our "window of opportunity" to even remotely be a championship level team, is 3 years ... unless Dennis or one of the rookies rapidly develop into All-Star level talents.

Because in the 19 - 20 season, both Millsap and Howard will be 34 yrs old ... and need new contracts.   They still may be be good big men, but more than likely not All-Star level talents.

Honestly, if the opportunity arose to trade scrubs for an established player like Gay, you do that in a heartbeat.

What has him being an established player ever done for any of his teams?  What makes you think he'd accept a 6th man role backing up any of our wings? What in his career makes you think he'd be willing to be part of a ball movement unselfish offense? Or that he'd put defense 1st? I see none of those things being possible with Gay.  If you don't want to keep those "scrubs" then use their contracts to get a player who's a better fit for the Hawks. You don't just make a trade for the sake of making a trade. 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

There's a heirarchy of expectations that I have for our players based on their skillsets. None of our other Allstars were able to elevate their games when needed based on the understanding that Cleveland was locked in on Kyle and took him out. They did nothing to force Cleveland to adjust their coverage on Kyle.

Agreed, JBH.  

My point was not that Kyle is perfect.  It was that he had an impact on the spacing on the floor that others could not capitalize on.  If the others had been marked as tight as Kyle, it would have been a cluster for Cleveland.  You can't sell out like that without opening up lots of opportunities on the floor.  Usually you don't see someone get blanketed like Kyle did because teams are afraid of what they will be giving up in order to devote that kind of attention to someone who is supposed to be the team's 3rd or 4th offensive option.  

That is what Kyle is - our 4th offensive option.   He just happens to be our most efficient option so sometimes people get that confused.  

Kyle can't create shots for himself at all but is legendarily deadly at canning the shots that open up for him.  There is a role for a guy like that and a value to the rest of the team in someone being the #1 focus of the opposing defense.  Put THJr in there instead (26.9% from the floor in the playoffs) and his defender gets to start helping on everyone else making it more difficult for them which is the opposite of Korver's impact.

So Kyle is not a star at all.  He is a role player who does one thing exceptionally well shooting the ball and moves off the ball pretty well.  Even in that crappy series his threat to shoot the ball led to Cleveland giving him unusual defensive attention which affected their defensive spacing negatively.  As JBH notes, the rest of the team neither took advantage of that for their own points or threatened the defense so as to create space for others.  That made his contribution something that didn't pay off.  It didn't make it not happen, though. It isn't a coincidence that Korver's +/- was better than all other starters for the series and was better than Sap, Horf, Baze and Teague in 3 of the 4 games.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

There's a heirarchy of expectations that I have for our players based on their skillsets. None of our other Allstars were able to elevate their games when needed based on the understanding that Cleveland was locked in on Kyle and took him out. They did nothing to force Cleveland to adjust their coverage on Kyle.

What would you do to free Kyle up, that Bud didn't try?

 

[AHF]

24 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

What would you do to free Kyle up, that Bud didn't try?

I think the issue is not that Bud could have done something.  It was that you expect Teague, Sap and Horford to punish teams for giving up a help defender and selling out to stop Korver and they didn't.  It should be an advantage to play 4 on 4.  Arguably we did take advantage of that spacing to some extent (which explains his +/- among the starters) but not enough.  I am hoping our bench can give enough this year that Korver can have his minutes limited when he is being stonewalled and that if teams sell out to stop him that Sap, Dwight, Dennis, etc. will punish the other team (which is the one thing that will free Kyle up because his man will have to worry about helping against other players like every other defender on the floor).

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Spud2Nique said:

Wait, who is the 25ppg player that will win a playoff game?

That is not what I said.

I said a guy capable of winning a game with a 25+ point night.

 i.e. - what Dennis almost did vs the Cavs.

In the playoffs, you need guys who are capable of getting hot and carrying the team, when the complimentary players aren't playing up to standard.

And if your main guy can't do it every night, you need other people capable of doing it on occasion.

 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

That is not what I said.

I said a guy capable of winning a game with a 25+ point night.

 i.e. - what Dennis almost did vs the Cavs.

In the playoffs, you need guys who are capable of getting hot and carrying the team, when the complimentary players aren't playing up to standard.

And if your main guy can't do it every night, you need other people capable of doing it on occasion.

 

But you did say in the playoffs? Honestly, if you are talking about Rudy Gay and he somehow is able to unselfishly score 25 points in our system, he'd prolly end up giving up 30 on the other end to his man. He isn't really valued in this league which is why even the Kings who are just terrible and have no direction are trying to deal him. We have nothing to gain by adding him and a lot to lose in my opinion.

[ATLien_]

I swear I don't understand the Rudy Gay hate on this board. Did he sleep with someones mommy  or girlfriend?  His teams have lost in the past and some how that's all his fault?  I've never heard any coach or teammate complain about Rudy Gay being a malcontent or ball hog.

We clamor for Demaree  Carroll, but say  Rudy Gay sucks. Rudy Gay is a much better player than Carroll  and can do everything he can do defensively and much more offensively. Hey I know let's Jamal  Crawford that's a one dimensional chucker that's better than Gay.  Wrong again. 

What did Demaree, Millsap, Bazemore, Jamal Crawford win before getting here? None of those players were considered better than Gay, and they've all contributed to winning here. 

Everyone likes to talk about the Grizzlies getting better well that was a poorly constructed team with no shooters or spacing. That has more to do with them constructing a proper team than Gay. The kings have been losing and disfunctional 12 plus years and somehow the fairly recent addition of Rudy gay is the root cause?

Bottom line if Gay is available for right price he should be here, and not as a freaking 6th man. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, ATLien_ said:

I swear I don't understand the Rudy Gay hate on this board. Did he sleep with someones mommy  or girlfriend?  His teams have lost in the past and some how that's all his fault?  I've never heard any coach or teammate complain about Rudy Gay being a malcontent or ball hog.

We clamor for Demaree  Carroll, but say  Rudy Gay sucks. Rudy Gay is a much better player than Carroll  and can do everything he can do defensively and much more offensively. Hey I know let's Jamal  Crawford that's a one dimensional chucker that's better than Gay.  Wrong again. 

What did Demaree, Millsap, Bazemore, Jamal Crawford win before getting here? None of those players were considered better than Gay, and they've all contributed to winning here. 

Everyone likes to talk about the Grizzlies getting better well that was a poorly constructed team with no shooters or spacing. That has more to do with them constructing a proper team than Gay. The kings have been losing and disfunctional 12 plus years and somehow the fairly recent addition of Rudy gay is the root cause?

Bottom line if Gay is available for right price he should be here, and not as a freaking 6th man. 

Have you seen the guy play lately? He honestly just goes through the motions. I swear he doesn't care about winning or anything and it shows on the court. Try to watch him play next season and see what you think. It's pretty awful.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Korver, even last year, did his job of attracting attention.   How many 7 ppg guys are the number One concern on the oppositions gameplan?

 

 

Hopefully we now have a team where shutting down Korver and going under on screens isn't a gameplan that leads to a sweep.   I think the new lineup should help open things up.

 

He was a top concern because he was the one who aggressively looked for his 3 point shot at all times.

The issue with the Hawks is that they would almost try to force feed the ball to Korver, just to get him a shot.  And when the Hawks were unable to free him up, a guy usually had to try to create a shot before the shot clock ran out.  And a lot of times, that guy was Millsap or Teague.

22nd in offensive rating last year.

0 - 12 on last second 4th quarter/OT shots going into April, with some of those attempts being flat out comical.

But offensively, everything is "A OK" I guess.

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But offensively, everything is "A OK" I guess.

Where did you get that?  The point was that he had the expected 'gravity' impact on defensive spacing.  Nevertheless, our team sucked offensively and was even worse when he was off the floor.  How is that "A OK"?

[BigDog90]

19 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

What has him being an established player ever done for any of his teams?  What makes you think he'd accept a 6th man role backing up any of our wings? What in his career makes you think he'd be willing to be part of a ball movement unselfish offense? Or that he'd put defense 1st? I see none of those things being possible with Gay.  If you don't want to keep those "scrubs" then use their contracts to get a player who's a better fit for the Hawks. You don't just make a trade for the sake of making a trade. 

Right! I'm sure Gay wouldn't want to come off the bench for the Hawks. Maybe the Warriors/Cavs. 

[Lurker]

I can live with Korver starting or if not starting, playing significant mins if the Hawks were playing off of his movement well and he at least took five shots. The thing is, we saw neither of these  happen against Cleveland when he started. He didn't see the light of day and the Hawks were not able to play off of his movement because he spent most of the time he was in just standing in a corner, resigned to Smith being able to keep up with him if he moved.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

20 hours ago, Dolfan23 said:

What has him being an established player ever done for any of his teams?  What makes you think he'd accept a 6th man role backing up any of our wings? What in his career makes you think he'd be willing to be part of a ball movement unselfish offense? Or that he'd put defense 1st? I see none of those things being possible with Gay.  If you don't want to keep those "scrubs" then use their contracts to get a player who's a better fit for the Hawks. You don't just make a trade for the sake of making a trade. 

These same things were been said about established players like Jamal Crawford, Al Jefferson, and JR Smith.  

Yet, all 3 of those players were able to help their new team, mainly because they were surrounded by better players and better coaches who could enhance their strengths, and improve ( or even mask ) their deficiencies as players.

Heck, we're taking on one of the biggest player enigmas in recent memory, in Dwight Howard.  And yet, we're betting on the fact that Bud, the players, and the system, can make Dwight a better player.

If we aquired a player like Rudy Gay, I'd make that same bet.