Maybe we should offer KCP a max

[Peoriabird]

How is he different than Bembry?

[JTB]

1 minute ago, Peoriabird said:

How is he different than Bembry?

You know what!....he's not ...just more proven when guarding the elites of the league due to him having the opportunity to do so but I wouldn't say bembry couldn't do the same thing.

[Watchman]

9 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

How is he different than Bembry?

He gets paid better. 

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, Watchman said:

He gets paid better. 

Hopefully not by us

[Final_quest]

12 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

How is he different than Bembry?

Not trying to slam Bembry, but Pope has proven himself in the NBA and has a better resume than 2 summer league games.

[Thomas]

2 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Not trying to slam Bembry, but Pope has proven himself in the NBA and has a better resume than 2 summer league games.

So has Bembry though a ton shorter list but just ask Harden and LeBron for confirmation on that.

[Final_quest]

He needs a bigger resume.  Bembry is not a proven NBA commodity yet.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Would really appreciate an update on the cap situation, but I think we have at least $17M if not more.

There is a thread for this. I went over it (sort of).  

 

 

[marco102]

4 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

How is he different than Bembry?

Bembry's a much better facilitator, rebounder, and defender.

Whereas KCP is more of defender and spot up shooter. When he's own he can drop thirty, when he's off it's not pretty.

[bumpyphish1]

13 hours ago, hazer said:

They're not gonna max anybody right now. 

First, I'd probably pay KCP a max (his max) if that's what it took to ink him, but it appears it won't.  He may have even been willing to to take slightly less than his max to play close to home, but you know the max he is eligible for is something like $21.6M/year or something, right?  We aren't talking about Steph Curry max money here, and I think BudSchlenk would sign a young player to a max or damn close even if they knew year one was not gonna be a playoff team (they were willing to do so for Noel before Dirk renegotiated to clear room for Noel and others.)  The Hawks are aiming to have one "developmental" season and then be competitive as soon as 2018-19.  They are gonna want a young team that is playoff-caliber by that year--Dennis will only have two years left on his contract after that season, so they ain't gonna wait long.  If I read another NBA writer say the Hawks are in "full scale rebuild mode" again, I'll puke.  If you think that's what we are doing, you are wrong.  We have three firsts next season, I'd be surprised if we draft more than one player in the first round--3 2018 and 2 2019 firsts and Belinelli will be used between now and the next draft to the aim of having a young team in place in 18-19 that is "close to complete" from a personnel standpoint where players like Dennis and Prince are scratching the beginning of their best years.  KCP would be in that class, too, were he a Hawk. 

12 hours ago, sturt said:

Could yet be surprised, but the money appears to be drying up, and I just don't think anyone, us included, are going to max him.

Having said that, I can imagine us being one of the finalists for his services.

My own conjecture is Schlenk is going to want to come out of this off-season with one more long-term horse than he already has in his stable.

KCP conceivably could be that.

Only player I believe who possibly could be maxed is Noel, and that, only if someone seriously projects him as Tyson Chandler.

$25m is a fair number as long as you think he's going to play at that level and be a regular difference maker within a couple of years.

And he, of course, also would qualify as that one more long-term horse.

 

This is the most level-headed post in this thread.  I'm not sure if we'd be willing to pay KCP, but there's no doubt we are gonna have an offer for him that is as high or higher than what Tim got.  I donno if the Hawks brass was gonna let Tim move on regardless, but before they had to decide, news that Detroit renounced their qualifying offer to KCP made passing on Tim an EASY decision.

11 hours ago, sturt said:

I don't think the max is really a consideration at this point.

Years? I think it all depends on how Schlenk projects him. If he's just a guy, I think you're right, it will be a short-term deal. But at that age, and if Schlenk projects him to be a horse, I have little doubt Schlenk will go 4 years.

I tend to think you are right.  I don't think KCP will end up with the max but if he signs a 4-year deal, it will be close to it, and that won't be overpaying him.

4 hours ago, Final_quest said:

Would really appreciate an update on the cap situation, but I think we have at least $17M if not more.

I'd like an update on the cap situation as well.  I don't know exactly, but I am pretty sure the cap isn't gonna prevent us from being able what it takes to pay KCP whatever he takes.  Worst case we trade Belinelli for peanuts and then we can easily afford KCP...and even potentially frontload his contract to help in future year's with cap space.

I don't post or even read here very often but I decided to check in.  I'm surprised this is all KCP has been discussed.  Let me fill in some holes and clarify a few comments, mostly related to KCP, but also related to the Hawks place as a franchise now....

On KCP (with special attention to @capstone21's comment that KCP "only shot .399 last year"):

     I don't think his defensive abilities are questioned, so we'll just assume everyone concurs he's a significantly better defender than Tim.  So, let's talk about his offense.  Aside from just the sort of natural conclusion you can draw from the fact he's been considered the best SG free agent by GM's around the league (and reporters have assumed KCP would get a max offer and Detroit was gonna match until they found this trade, which was miraculous considering KCP has hated being in Detroit,) KCP was always an afterthought in Detroit's offensive system. I read an interview with Van Gundy from last season praising KCP for just that. Said something to the effect that "despite us not ever running plays for him, he always finds a way to make an impact on the offense."  He shot 39.9% overall and 35% from 3 last season.  Getting to 35% from 3 isn't a bad thing. A few points higher, and you are looking at a more than acceptable number.  KCP is a full year younger than Hardaway, and (@capstone21 pay attention), when we traded for Hardaway, he was coming off of a season where he shot 38.9% from the field and 34% from 3.  It's amazing what good coaching, player development, and a modern offensive system will bring out in a player.  KCP was a high school McDonald's all-American, has character beyond reproach, and chose to play college ball at UGA because he wanted to be close to home.  I watched him for two years at UGA, and there is no doubt in my mind he can become a 38-40% shooter from range and will benefit from having an offense that promotes putting players in opportunity's to make plays--KCP was an afterthought in Detroit--most of his points came unfacilitated as they were content to play their offense centered around Reggie Jackson, Andre Drummond, and Tobias Harris.  Despite that, KCP averaged the most minutes played per game on the team.  I think he's an ideal 3 and D fit with the better looks he'll get in Bud's offense, and I still think the Hawks will make a hard push for him because there's no logical reason I can see that they shouldn't.  I don't have "The Woj" or any national reporting, but my money is on him signing with Atlanta unless he wants to do the one-year LA thing (which I still find dubious.)  In short, in my opinion, if the Hawks don't make a strong push to sign KCP, Schlenk either thinks he can potentially sign him after he plays a year for the Lakers (they want him on a one-year deal because he shares Paul George's agent) or is missing a huge opportunity to get a potentially elite SG below his actual value based on the sheer luck how the free agency market/offseason has unfolded.

On the Hawks more broadly...

     The plan forward? Don't sign bad contracts, do everything you can to put us in position to make moves between now and 2018-19 to have a young, growing but highly competitive team on the court by that season, with or without KCP. We just re-signed Muscala to a 2-year $10M deal. Very flexible. Year one doesn't matter, the next, he's a cheap expiring you can use as a role player or in a trade. As of now, we have under contract for next season players (in order of most to least valuable):

Schröder ($15M) - 4 years
Prince ($2.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Collins ($2M) - 4 years (restricted)
Bembry (1.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Belinelli ($6M) - 1 year - will be traded by deadline
Tyler Dorsey (~$1.3M) - 2 years (quasi-restricted?)
Muscala ($5M) - 2 years
Diamond Stone ($1.2M) - 1 year (quasi-restricted?)
Malcolm Delaney ($2.5M) - 1 year 
Bazemore ($17M) - 3 years
Plumlee ($12M) - 3 years

.....eleven under contract, so, we can sign up to four more players---think you have to have a minimum of 13, so we have to sign at least two more. Hawks gonna do whatever they can to try to find a steal in FA, avoid bad contracts, and put themselves in the best position to possible to have tons of trade flexibility between now and the 2018-19 season. I suspect next offseason, they will move Plumlee, Bazemore or both...gonna have to give up something valuable to get a team to take on either of those crap contracts, but I suspect we'll move at least one of them after eating the contract for one year so that it will be *slightly* less crummy next offseason. No chance in hell we draft 3 guys in the first next season--I'll be surprised if we don't trade two of the picks. The extra 2018 firsts plus the two 2019 firsts, Belinelli, and possibly Muscala will be used in aggressive trade efforts over the next year. If they sign KCP, I'd say this has been close to a flawless offseason by the new GM and Bud.

PEACE, you Hawksquawkers.  Schlenk and Bud have ostensibly played their hand masterfully to this point.  Not aggressively pursuing KCP would be something they'd live to regret.  But, since they are bright guys, KCP is a local boy and likes home, I like our chances to do the best thing and bring the kid home.  Yee haw!

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

I will say that I follow the Pistons as well as the Hawks and Detroit isn't happy with KCP's development up to this point. His defense is good, but he is as inconsistent as it gets and reminded me of Smoove Jr. Can't hit a corner three to save his life and his BBIQ is average at best. We'd be smart to let him sign elsewhere.

[hazer]

2 hours ago, bumpyphish1 said:

First, I'd probably pay KCP a max (his max) if that's what it took to ink him, but it appears it won't.  He may have even been willing to to take slightly less than his max to play close to home, but you know the max he is eligible for is something like $21.6M/year or something, right?  We aren't talking about Steph Curry max money here, and I think BudSchlenk would sign a young player to a max or damn close even if they knew year one was not gonna be a playoff team (they were willing to do so for Noel before Dirk renegotiated to clear room for Noel and others.)  The Hawks are aiming to have one "developmental" season and then be competitive as soon as 2018-19.  They are gonna want a young team that is playoff-caliber by that year--Dennis will only have two years left on his contract after that season, so they ain't gonna wait long.  If I read another NBA writer say the Hawks are in "full scale rebuild mode" again, I'll puke.  If you think that's what we are doing, you are wrong.  We have three firsts next season, I'd be surprised if we draft more than one player in the first round--3 2018 and 2 2019 firsts and Belinelli will be used between now and the next draft to the aim of having a young team in place in 18-19 that is "close to complete" from a personnel standpoint where players like Dennis and Prince are scratching the beginning of their best years.  KCP would be in that class, too, were he a Hawk. 

This is the most level-headed post in this thread.  I'm not sure if we'd be willing to pay KCP, but there's no doubt we are gonna have an offer for him that is as high or higher than what Tim got.  I donno if the Hawks brass was gonna let Tim move on regardless, but before they had to decide, news that Detroit renounced their qualifying offer to KCP made passing on Tim an EASY decision.

I tend to think you are right.  I don't think KCP will end up with the max but if he signs a 4-year deal, it will be close to it, and that won't be overpaying him.

I'd like an update on the cap situation as well.  I don't know exactly, but I am pretty sure the cap isn't gonna prevent us from being able what it takes to pay KCP whatever he takes.  Worst case we trade Belinelli for peanuts and then we can easily afford KCP...and even potentially frontload his contract to help in future year's with cap space.

I don't post or even read here very often but I decided to check in.  I'm surprised this is all KCP has been discussed.  Let me fill in some holes and clarify a few comments, mostly related to KCP, but also related to the Hawks place as a franchise now....

On KCP (with special attention to @capstone21's comment that KCP "only shot .399 last year"):

     I don't think his defensive abilities are questioned, so we'll just assume everyone concurs he's a significantly better defender than Tim.  So, let's talk about his offense.  Aside from just the sort of natural conclusion you can draw from the fact he's been considered the best SG free agent by GM's around the league (and reporters have assumed KCP would get a max offer and Detroit was gonna match until they found this trade, which was miraculous considering KCP has hated being in Detroit,) KCP was always an afterthought in Detroit's offensive system. I read an interview with Van Gundy from last season praising KCP for just that. Said something to the effect that "despite us not ever running plays for him, he always finds a way to make an impact on the offense."  He shot 39.9% overall and 35% from 3 last season.  Getting to 35% from 3 isn't a bad thing. A few points higher, and you are looking at a more than acceptable number.  KCP is a full year younger than Hardaway, and (@capstone21 pay attention), when we traded for Hardaway, he was coming off of a season where he shot 38.9% from the field and 34% from 3.  It's amazing what good coaching, player development, and a modern offensive system will bring out in a player.  KCP was a high school McDonald's all-American, has character beyond reproach, and chose to play college ball at UGA because he wanted to be close to home.  I watched him for two years at UGA, and there is no doubt in my mind he can become a 38-40% shooter from range and will benefit from having an offense that promotes putting players in opportunity's to make plays--KCP was an afterthought in Detroit--most of his points came unfacilitated as they were content to play their offense centered around Reggie Jackson, Andre Drummond, and Tobias Harris.  Despite that, KCP averaged the most minutes played per game on the team.  I think he's an ideal 3 and D fit with the better looks he'll get in Bud's offense, and I still think the Hawks will make a hard push for him because there's no logical reason I can see that they shouldn't.  I don't have "The Woj" or any national reporting, but my money is on him signing with Atlanta unless he wants to do the one-year LA thing (which I still find dubious.)  In short, in my opinion, if the Hawks don't make a strong push to sign KCP, Schlenk either thinks he can potentially sign him after he plays a year for the Lakers (they want him on a one-year deal because he shares Paul George's agent) or is missing a huge opportunity to get a potentially elite SG below his actual value based on the sheer luck how the free agency market/offseason has unfolded.

On the Hawks more broadly...

     The plan forward? Don't sign bad contracts, do everything you can to put us in position to make moves between now and 2018-19 to have a young, growing but highly competitive team on the court by that season, with or without KCP. We just re-signed Muscala to a 2-year $10M deal. Very flexible. Year one doesn't matter, the next, he's a cheap expiring you can use as a role player or in a trade. As of now, we have under contract for next season players (in order of most to least valuable):

Schröder ($15M) - 4 years
Prince ($2.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Collins ($2M) - 4 years (restricted)
Bembry (1.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Belinelli ($6M) - 1 year - will be traded by deadline
Tyler Dorsey (~$1.3M) - 2 years (quasi-restricted?)
Muscala ($5M) - 2 years
Diamond Stone ($1.2M) - 1 year (quasi-restricted?)
Malcolm Delaney ($2.5M) - 1 year 
Bazemore ($17M) - 3 years
Plumlee ($12M) - 3 years

.....eleven under contract, so, we can sign up to four more players---think you have to have a minimum of 13, so we have to sign at least two more. Hawks gonna do whatever they can to try to find a steal in FA, avoid bad contracts, and put themselves in the best position to possible to have tons of trade flexibility between now and the 2018-19 season. I suspect next offseason, they will move Plumlee, Bazemore or both...gonna have to give up something valuable to get a team to take on either of those crap contracts, but I suspect we'll move at least one of them after eating the contract for one year so that it will be *slightly* less crummy next offseason. No chance in hell we draft 3 guys in the first next season--I'll be surprised if we don't trade two of the picks. The extra 2018 firsts plus the two 2019 firsts, Belinelli, and possibly Muscala will be used in aggressive trade efforts over the next year. If they sign KCP, I'd say this has been close to a flawless offseason by the new GM and Bud.

PEACE, you Hawksquawkers.  Schlenk and Bud have ostensibly played their hand masterfully to this point.  Not aggressively pursuing KCP would be something they'd live to regret.  But, since they are bright guys, KCP is a local boy and likes home, I like our chances to do the best thing and bring the kid home.  Yee haw!

Yes, I'm aware his max is less than a Curry max. You have no idea what they're willing to pay for Nerlins. And I said nothing about them being in "full scale rebuild mode", so I'm not wrong and not sure why your directing that to me. All I said was they're not offering a max. Which you went on to agree with in your quoted responses to the other posters.

Edited July 10, 2017 by hazer

[JTB]

54 minutes ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

I will say that I follow the Pistons as well as the Hawks and Detroit isn't happy with KCP's development up to this point. His defense is good, but he is as inconsistent as it gets and reminded me of Smoove Jr. Can't hit a corner three to save his life and his BBIQ is average at best. We'd be smart to let him sign elsewhere.

Somewhere I read he shot well from the corner 3 this past season 

[JTB]

27 minutes ago, JTB said:

Somewhere I read he shot well from the corner 3 this past season 

49% from left corner 3 (26 made of 53 taken)

43% from right corner 3 (7 made of 16 taken)

 

[capstone21]

3 hours ago, bumpyphish1 said:

First, I'd probably pay KCP a max (his max) if that's what it took to ink him, but it appears it won't.  He may have even been willing to to take slightly less than his max to play close to home, but you know the max he is eligible for is something like $21.6M/year or something, right?  We aren't talking about Steph Curry max money here, and I think BudSchlenk would sign a young player to a max or damn close even if they knew year one was not gonna be a playoff team (they were willing to do so for Noel before Dirk renegotiated to clear room for Noel and others.)  The Hawks are aiming to have one "developmental" season and then be competitive as soon as 2018-19.  They are gonna want a young team that is playoff-caliber by that year--Dennis will only have two years left on his contract after that season, so they ain't gonna wait long.  If I read another NBA writer say the Hawks are in "full scale rebuild mode" again, I'll puke.  If you think that's what we are doing, you are wrong.  We have three firsts next season, I'd be surprised if we draft more than one player in the first round--3 2018 and 2 2019 firsts and Belinelli will be used between now and the next draft to the aim of having a young team in place in 18-19 that is "close to complete" from a personnel standpoint where players like Dennis and Prince are scratching the beginning of their best years.  KCP would be in that class, too, were he a Hawk. 

This is the most level-headed post in this thread.  I'm not sure if we'd be willing to pay KCP, but there's no doubt we are gonna have an offer for him that is as high or higher than what Tim got.  I donno if the Hawks brass was gonna let Tim move on regardless, but before they had to decide, news that Detroit renounced their qualifying offer to KCP made passing on Tim an EASY decision.

I tend to think you are right.  I don't think KCP will end up with the max but if he signs a 4-year deal, it will be close to it, and that won't be overpaying him.

I'd like an update on the cap situation as well.  I don't know exactly, but I am pretty sure the cap isn't gonna prevent us from being able what it takes to pay KCP whatever he takes.  Worst case we trade Belinelli for peanuts and then we can easily afford KCP...and even potentially frontload his contract to help in future year's with cap space.

I don't post or even read here very often but I decided to check in.  I'm surprised this is all KCP has been discussed.  Let me fill in some holes and clarify a few comments, mostly related to KCP, but also related to the Hawks place as a franchise now....

On KCP (with special attention to @capstone21's comment that KCP "only shot .399 last year"):

     I don't think his defensive abilities are questioned, so we'll just assume everyone concurs he's a significantly better defender than Tim.  So, let's talk about his offense.  Aside from just the sort of natural conclusion you can draw from the fact he's been considered the best SG free agent by GM's around the league (and reporters have assumed KCP would get a max offer and Detroit was gonna match until they found this trade, which was miraculous considering KCP has hated being in Detroit,) KCP was always an afterthought in Detroit's offensive system. I read an interview with Van Gundy from last season praising KCP for just that. Said something to the effect that "despite us not ever running plays for him, he always finds a way to make an impact on the offense."  He shot 39.9% overall and 35% from 3 last season.  Getting to 35% from 3 isn't a bad thing. A few points higher, and you are looking at a more than acceptable number.  KCP is a full year younger than Hardaway, and (@capstone21 pay attention), when we traded for Hardaway, he was coming off of a season where he shot 38.9% from the field and 34% from 3.  It's amazing what good coaching, player development, and a modern offensive system will bring out in a player.  KCP was a high school McDonald's all-American, has character beyond reproach, and chose to play college ball at UGA because he wanted to be close to home.  I watched him for two years at UGA, and there is no doubt in my mind he can become a 38-40% shooter from range and will benefit from having an offense that promotes putting players in opportunity's to make plays--KCP was an afterthought in Detroit--most of his points came unfacilitated as they were content to play their offense centered around Reggie Jackson, Andre Drummond, and Tobias Harris.  Despite that, KCP averaged the most minutes played per game on the team.  I think he's an ideal 3 and D fit with the better looks he'll get in Bud's offense, and I still think the Hawks will make a hard push for him because there's no logical reason I can see that they shouldn't.  I don't have "The Woj" or any national reporting, but my money is on him signing with Atlanta unless he wants to do the one-year LA thing (which I still find dubious.)  In short, in my opinion, if the Hawks don't make a strong push to sign KCP, Schlenk either thinks he can potentially sign him after he plays a year for the Lakers (they want him on a one-year deal because he shares Paul George's agent) or is missing a huge opportunity to get a potentially elite SG below his actual value based on the sheer luck how the free agency market/offseason has unfolded.

On the Hawks more broadly...

     The plan forward? Don't sign bad contracts, do everything you can to put us in position to make moves between now and 2018-19 to have a young, growing but highly competitive team on the court by that season, with or without KCP. We just re-signed Muscala to a 2-year $10M deal. Very flexible. Year one doesn't matter, the next, he's a cheap expiring you can use as a role player or in a trade. As of now, we have under contract for next season players (in order of most to least valuable):

Schröder ($15M) - 4 years
Prince ($2.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Collins ($2M) - 4 years (restricted)
Bembry (1.5M) - 3 years (restricted)
Belinelli ($6M) - 1 year - will be traded by deadline
Tyler Dorsey (~$1.3M) - 2 years (quasi-restricted?)
Muscala ($5M) - 2 years
Diamond Stone ($1.2M) - 1 year (quasi-restricted?)
Malcolm Delaney ($2.5M) - 1 year 
Bazemore ($17M) - 3 years
Plumlee ($12M) - 3 years

.....eleven under contract, so, we can sign up to four more players---think you have to have a minimum of 13, so we have to sign at least two more. Hawks gonna do whatever they can to try to find a steal in FA, avoid bad contracts, and put themselves in the best position to possible to have tons of trade flexibility between now and the 2018-19 season. I suspect next offseason, they will move Plumlee, Bazemore or both...gonna have to give up something valuable to get a team to take on either of those crap contracts, but I suspect we'll move at least one of them after eating the contract for one year so that it will be *slightly* less crummy next offseason. No chance in hell we draft 3 guys in the first next season--I'll be surprised if we don't trade two of the picks. The extra 2018 firsts plus the two 2019 firsts, Belinelli, and possibly Muscala will be used in aggressive trade efforts over the next year. If they sign KCP, I'd say this has been close to a flawless offseason by the new GM and Bud.

PEACE, you Hawksquawkers.  Schlenk and Bud have ostensibly played their hand masterfully to this point.  Not aggressively pursuing KCP would be something they'd live to regret.  But, since they are bright guys, KCP is a local boy and likes home, I like our chances to do the best thing and bring the kid home.  Yee haw!

We brought Tim here on a contract that was like a million dollars and he spent most of the season in the dleage being humbled and also changing his mechanics and mentality.  We were not betting a max contract on him that it would work.  I don't think either guy is worth that kind of contract

[Dragitoff]

At this point, I think KCP would be lucky to get Tim's contract based on the limited number of teams that could offer him anything close to it.  Before the DMC trade, I thought he was Brooklyn bound.  Now he has very limited options unless he plays for a cheap 1 year "prove it" deal.  I'd be good with a 3-4 year deal at $13-15 million per.  As PP's have mentioned, he could develop into a solid 3 & D player in the right system.  He's definitely got the defensive chops and he's young enough to fit in with our youth movement. 

[BrazilianHawk]

Wait a minute... Millsap isn't worth 30M but somehow KCP is worth 22M? Especially considering we now have a gaping hole at PF and a surplus of SG-types. Inneficient ones ar that, but SGs nonetheless.

Hmm... yeah.

 

[mrhonline]

7 minutes ago, BrazilianHawk said:

Wait a minute... Millsap isn't worth 30M but somehow KCP is worth 22M? Especially considering we now have a gaping hole at PF and a surplus of SG-types. Inneficient ones ar that, but SGs nonetheless.

Hmm... yeah.

 

Seriously.  How long is it going to take for Hawks' fans to realize this is a lost season?

[BrazilianHawk]

Just now, mrhonline said:

Seriously.  How long is it going to take for Hawks' fans to realize this is a lost season?

Well, if it's lost, just tank it and don't screw up giving contracts like that. We don't need a guy like KCP in the team.

[Thomas]

11 hours ago, Final_quest said:

He needs a bigger resume.  Bembry is not a proven NBA commodity yet.

So lets enjoy watching Bembry build a much bigger one this season.