Ok Howard can officially lick ***

[AUhawksfan]

From a purely numbers perspective I was completely happy with Dwight but it also made me realize that his place in today's game is relatively extinct.  If you're strictly doing the dirty work (defense, rebounds, putbacks, setting screens - think Tristan Thompson) and are fine with it then you can be a good asset.

A guy like Dwight doesn't see this though and still feels like he can demand the ball and have an offense run through him which seems delusional when you see what the successful teams are doing based on the rule changes and pace these days.

I don't strictly blame him for our shooting woes but when you try to run a movement based offense with him it's not going to work as well and your shooters aren't going to get as many rhythm 3s.  I give Dennis part blame for this too, as he needs to improve their as well.

Also, to Poppovich's defense he doesn't have to do the GM'ing so I'm hoping moving Bud back to strictly coaching will stop the whole "finding players and trying to mold them to the system" that just aren't a fit.

[Blunt91]

Dwight got Punked by Gortat in the Playoffs. He only had 1 good game where he was a difference maker. When he was fed the ball in the post he was either stripped or fouled, where he attempted to convert free throws.  Dwight had his chance but did not step up end of story.

[thecampster]

https://clutchpoints.com/dwight-howard-plays-the-blame-game-in-addressing-his-decline/

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/dwight-howard-hornets-coach-clifford-013658783.html

[BigDog90]

On 8/18/2017 at 5:23 PM, thecampster said:

Sorry but I agree with him. The difference between Pop and Bud is that Pop molds his system to his talent. Bud tries to mold the talent to the system.  The system is only as good as the fit.  You take a hard rebounding, space absorbing big and put him in a system that needs space and gives up rebounds for quality shots.....they don't mix.

I thought Bud was going to adapt to Dwight based on his interviews last summer. However, Dwight hired that shooting coach and he never put into action the stuff he worked on.

[BigDog90]

On 8/18/2017 at 5:34 PM, benhillboy said:

All he and Josh have shown is when you have a similar basketball apprenticeship (AAU, lowest-level high school competition, no college) you probably will never have a viable philosophy on basketball.  I feel sorry for Steve Clifford.  A year from now his eyebrows are gonna turn gray and get thinner.  Jordan failing miserably as an owner is a running gag so no sympathy there.  Can't  wait until the Hawks PNR him to death and Dedmon holds him under double digits easily.

If CHA have him come off the bench he'll be straight. I can't see Dwight finishing his contract in CHA. I can see him being a buyout candidate in 2018-19.

[Buzzard]

I think Howard is just bitter. He has not been the same player since he left Orlando. Three things come to mind, Van Gundy's scheme, D12's health, and then his mental attitude.

LA, Houston, Atl, you would have thought he could have found peace on one of those teams.

[Diesel]

16 hours ago, AUhawksfan said:

From a purely numbers perspective I was completely happy with Dwight but it also made me realize that his place in today's game is relatively extinct.  If you're strictly doing the dirty work (defense, rebounds, putbacks, setting screens - think Tristan Thompson) and are fine with it then you can be a good asset.

 

Here's the problems with all of this.  First off, if you have a guy like Dwight, you have to play to his strength... even in a league who has fallen in love with the stretch 5.  The Stretch 5 is a FAD and will go away.  A low post animal is something that will always work in the NBA but you have to feed that.   Playing with Dennis is part of the downfall of Howard.  You can't play with a selfish mediocre PG who won't feed you on the PNR. 

But the worst part of it is listening to fans that try to blame the Hawks woes on Dwight.

1.  Dwight didn't get the ball on PNR plays because he didn't finish well.  Really?

2.  Dwight didn't get the ball when he was posted up because he doesn't score well from the post.  Really?

3.  It's Dwight's fault that we shot so bad from 3.   Really??

4.  Dwight was benched for Moose because Moose is a better player than Dwight.   Really?

So now when we see Dwight explain "His Side"... and tell the truth about what happened to Him in Atlanta... We want to say... I hate him more??  Really?

Here's my deal with you.

If we watched Dwight pull himself back up to allstar status... and IF we watch Dennis mess up another Big and we watch Bud miscoach another big man in the person of Dedmon... My deal is that you guys will come back and admit that Bud and Dennis are the problem in Atlanta Hawks basketball. 

[JTB]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

Here's the problems with all of this.  First off, if you have a guy like Dwight, you have to play to his strength... even in a league who has fallen in love with the stretch 5.  The Stretch 5 is a FAD and will go away.  A low post animal is something that will always work in the NBA but you have to feed that.   Playing with Dennis is part of the downfall of Howard.  You can't play with a selfish mediocre PG who won't feed you on the PNR. 

But the worst part of it is listening to fans that try to blame the Hawks woes on Dwight.

1.  Dwight didn't get the ball on PNR plays because he didn't finish well.  Really?

2.  Dwight didn't get the ball when he was posted up because he doesn't score well from the post.  Really?

3.  It's Dwight's fault that we shot so bad from 3.   Really??

4.  Dwight was benched for Moose because Moose is a better player than Dwight.   Really?

So now when we see Dwight explain "His Side"... and tell the truth about what happened to Him in Atlanta... We want to say... I hate him more??  Really?

Here's my deal with you.

If we watched Dwight pull himself back up to allstar status... and IF we watch Dennis mess up another Big and we watch Bud miscoach another big man in the person of Dedmon... My deal is that you guys will come back and admit that Bud and Dennis are the problem in Atlanta Hawks basketball. 

This is wrong on so many levels. Dennis is not the only one to blame as far as bad passes to the post! No one on this team could feed Howard in the post not just Dennis but to me in my opinion that shows how much the NBA has changed as these guards aren't use to traditional 5s ! Even lebron would rather not have a traditional 5...lebron has killed the post game of every all star power forward he's ever played with from Antwan Jamison, to chris bosh, and now Kevin love. All of these guys had some type of good offense around the basket before playing with Lebron but you know what AGAIN the NBA is different now and spreading the floor is NEEDED. We have pgs now that score a lot more than the pgs back in the day by simply using their speed to penetrate the lane and put up easy floaters. Point is is that traditional centers are only useful if you're going to play the Tristian Thompson role and I disagree with you saying it's just a fad and the NBA will return to the post...seriously doubt that. If that center (Howard for example) isn't ok with playing the Tristian/bogut/Deandre Jordan role and wants the ball in the post then that player MUST prove he has the skills to put the ball in the basket. Howard can only put the ball in the basket if he's damn near under the goal. Give it to him on the baseline and ANY center in the NBA can make him miss!

YOU CANNOT IGNORE that Howard has no offensive post moves! You CANNOT ignore that.... I don't care how much you hate Dennis!

As far as this offense goes it is NOT only Dennis responsibility to feed Howard the ball in the post! If we are truly running a Spurs offense than the whole team is responsible. We are not using Dennis as if he's phx suns steve nash or New Orleans chris Paul! All of your post about Dennis seems to be that you believe Dennis is supposed to be a pg like nash or cp3 and avg 10 plus assist! No sir! he's supposed to be a scoring pg like tony Parker that plays within the system and avg 18 points and 7 or 8 assists! Not a pass first pg...but a play within the system and just make the smart play type pg. The smart play was not feeding Howard the ball every possession.

howard would have worked had he wanted to win Buds way but no he wants to win his way. Speaking of bud you keep saying Howards fail was due to bud...how so? When bud wanted Howard to be Warriors bogut? How hard is it to set good picks and roll hard to the basket every possession? Eventually the ball will find you. @Lurker has said all season long that Howard doesn't fit not because of his skills but his unwilling to play the warriors bogut role which we see is now the truth. Howard wanted Olajuwon post touches instead and yet he's one of the worst offensive post players when he's not right underneath the basket. And now he wants to take jump shots next year lol....

Last you need to remember that Dennis had no other ball handler on the team other than him and millsap. That's right Dennis was the only ball handler out on the perimeter so that easily made his job harder. Tony Parker never had that situation! We can't play Spurs basketball if we only have one player on the perimeter that can handle the damn ball. 

[Watchman]

18 minutes ago, JTB said:

This is wrong on so many levels. Dennis is not the only one to blame as far as bad passes to the post! No one on this team could feed Howard in the post not just Dennis but to me in my opinion that shows how much the NBA has changed as these guards aren't use to traditional 5s ! Even lebron would rather not have a traditional 5...lebron has killed the post game of every all star power forward he's ever played with from Antwan Jamison, to chris bosh, and now Kevin love. All of these guys had some type of good offense around the basket before playing with Lebron but you know what AGAIN the NBA is different now and spreading the floor is NEEDED. We have pgs now that score a lot more than the pgs back in the day by simply using their speed to penetrate the lane and put up easy floaters. Point is is that traditional centers are only useful if you're going to play the Tristian Thompson role and I disagree with you saying it's just a fad and the NBA will return to the post...seriously doubt that. If that center (Howard for example) isn't ok with playing the Tristian/bogut/Deandre Jordan role and wants the ball in the post then that player MUST prove he has the skills to put the ball in the basket. Howard can only put the ball in the basket if he's damn near under the goal. Give it to him on the baseline and ANY center in the NBA can make him miss!

YOU CANNOT IGNORE that Howard has no offensive post moves! You CANNOT ignore that.... I don't care how much you hate Dennis!

As far as this offense goes it is NOT only Dennis responsibility to feed Howard the ball in the post! If we are truly running a Spurs offense than the whole team is responsible. We are not using Dennis as if he's phx suns steve nash or New Orleans chris Paul! All of your post about Dennis seems to be that you believe Dennis is supposed to be a pg like nash or cp3 and avg 10 plus assist! No sir! he's supposed to be a scoring pg like tony Parker that plays within the system and avg 18 points and 7 or 8 assists! Not a pass first pg...but a play within the system and just make the smart play type pg. The smart play was not feeding Howard the ball every possession.

howard would have worked had he wanted to win Buds way but no he wants to win his way. Speaking of bud you keep saying Howards fail was due to bud...how so? When bud wanted Howard to be Warriors bogut? How hard is it to set good picks and roll hard to the basket every possession? Eventually the ball will find you. @Lurker has said all season long that Howard doesn't fit not because of his skills but his unwilling to play the warriors bogut role which we see is now the truth. Howard wanted Olajuwon post touches instead and yet he's one of the worst offensive post players when he's not right underneath the basket. And now he wants to take jump shots next year lol....

Last you need to remember that Dennis had no other ball handler on the team other than him and millsap. That's right Dennis was the only ball handler out on the perimeter so that easily made his job harder. Tony Parker never had that situation! We can't play Spurs basketball if we only have one player on the perimeter that can handle the damn ball. 

Bazemore (and as I recall, Millsap and THJ) had no problem getting the ball to Howard down low.  If Bazemore could do it, why couldn't Schröder?

[marco102]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Here's the problems with all of this.  First off, if you have a guy like Dwight, you have to play to his strength... even in a league who has fallen in love with the stretch 5.  The Stretch 5 is a FAD and will go away.  A low post animal is something that will always work in the NBA but you have to feed that.   Playing with Dennis is part of the downfall of Howard.  You can't play with a selfish mediocre PG who won't feed you on the PNR. 

But the worst part of it is listening to fans that try to blame the Hawks woes on Dwight.

1.  Dwight didn't get the ball on PNR plays because he didn't finish well.  Really?

2.  Dwight didn't get the ball when he was posted up because he doesn't score well from the post.  Really?

3.  It's Dwight's fault that we shot so bad from 3.   Really??

4.  Dwight was benched for Moose because Moose is a better player than Dwight.   Really?

So now when we see Dwight explain "His Side"... and tell the truth about what happened to Him in Atlanta... We want to say... I hate him more??  Really?

Here's my deal with you.

If we watched Dwight pull himself back up to allstar status... and IF we watch Dennis mess up another Big and we watch Bud miscoach another big man in the person of Dedmon... My deal is that you guys will come back and admit that Bud and Dennis are the problem in Atlanta Hawks basketball. 

And when Demon and Dennis play better together, please promise me you will post nothing but positives about Dennis for the remainder of his contract (s) in Atlanta.

[JTB]

2 hours ago, Watchman said:

Bazemore (and as I recall, Millsap and THJ) had no problem getting the ball to Howard down low.  If Bazemore could do it, why couldn't Schröder?

All of those guys had problems getting the ball to Howard the majority of the season. Bazemore and millsap got better but there was still a problem getting the ball down to Howard. I don't blame howard for that part I'm just making a point to say in this new NBA era that is a problem among the whole NBA and very few can actually feed the post consistently.

the game has changed and many of the perimeter talents in the NBA today have not played with traditional centers who can actually score either by post moves or by being damn near under goal. Instead they are use to the floor being spreaded. It's not just Dennis that has this issue many pgs aren't use to feeding the post like how the game was played back then.

But the flip side of all this is that even though the Hawks struggled to get the ball down to Howard they still  were able to give even touches. The issue is Howard receiving the ball along the baseline where he actually has to perform a move isn't going to show on the stat sheet but throughout his career he's never been able to score effectively or at will at the baseline unless he used his power and elite athleticism (which he's not as athletic anymore to make those kind of plays) but generally Howards baseline post offense results in a miss or turnover. Now what Howard does excell in is scoring at will underneath the basket or drawing the foul...yes I agree when he positioned himself there were many times he didn't get awarded the ball to make the easy basket BUT that's not just on Dennis that's on the whole Hawks team! It's not even on bud it's on the players not giving him the damn ball when he was deep in the paint.

however we have to keep in mind that Howard wasn't always calling for the ball deep in the paint nor was he setting effective screens like he should have been every play to free up his teammates. 

This past seasons offensive failure can be blamed on everyone but I have a problem giving bud a majority blame because he can't play for the players and he's already a good proven coach. He can only ask the players to do what he's asking and if they don't listen which by the looks of it the majority of the roster didn't then that's always on the players. We can blame bud for assembling a roster that doesn't seem to be the best fit for his scheme but we can't blame bud on how he coached them or the confidence he had in his players to execute the scheme. 

Clearly bud had good intentions after interviews with the players before he signed them last off season and he had trust that they could execute the gameplan as team but hey shit backfires that's life. I believe bud say how rebounding was so bad he knew he had to fix that shit and try to stay competitive and that's the main reason Howard was brought on.

in a perfect world we would have kept horford and had all 3 of millsap, Howard, horford but earlier this summer I believe our owner resseler admitted that he was the reason we allowed horford to walk and not give him the money he demanded.

[Watchman]

On 8/19/2017 at 4:37 AM, kurupt said:

Howard had the most post-touches in the whole league, mate.

 

On the interview: I mean, the guy apparently has to lie to himself to keep living in his bubble. He averaged 8.5 shots a game last season in Atlanta (not 6) in 29.7 mpg. He averaged 12.7 shots per game in his last 4 seasons in Orlando in 36.7 mpg. Adjusted for playing time (per36) he had 10 shots per game in ATL and 12.1 in ORL. Plus maybe 1 shot per game more in ORL due to more FTA.

So yeah, he a few less shots. He still was the most used post-game Center/PF in the league and was inefficient at doing so (compared to playing more P&R). But he'll never learn. I am excited to see his 3rd (or 4th?) "rebirth"!

Not according to NBA.com.  He got 3.7 post possessions per game.  #20 in the league.

http://stats.nba.com/players/post-up/#!?sort=PossG&dir=1&CF=GP*GE*15&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season

Edited August 22, 2017 by Watchman

[Watchman]

On 8/19/2017 at 5:45 PM, benhillboy said:

Most in the league ain't enough?

Not anywhere near the most in the league.  Try #20.

[Diesel]

14 hours ago, JTB said:

This is wrong on so many levels. Dennis is not the only one to blame as far as bad passes to the post! No one on this team could feed Howard in the post not just Dennis but to me in my opinion that shows how much the NBA has changed as these guards aren't use to traditional 5s ! Even lebron would rather not have a traditional 5...lebron has killed the post game of every all star power forward he's ever played with from Antwan Jamison, to chris bosh, and now Kevin love. All of these guys had some type of good offense around the basket before playing with Lebron but you know what AGAIN the NBA is different now and spreading the floor is NEEDED. We have pgs now that score a lot more than the pgs back in the day by simply using their speed to penetrate the lane and put up easy floaters. Point is is that traditional centers are only useful if you're going to play the Tristian Thompson role and I disagree with you saying it's just a fad and the NBA will return to the post...seriously doubt that. If that center (Howard for example) isn't ok with playing the Tristian/bogut/Deandre Jordan role and wants the ball in the post then that player MUST prove he has the skills to put the ball in the basket. Howard can only put the ball in the basket if he's damn near under the goal. Give it to him on the baseline and ANY center in the NBA can make him miss!

 

The Stretch 5 and the Stretch 4 is a fad... it will disappear like 6'9" PGs and Point Forwards.   The point is that wehn you have a guy who is playing inside like Dwight, you have to give him more than 8 touches a game.  Sorry... that won't do.  Dwight Howard was 4th amoung Big men in FG% but he only took 8.3 attempts per game.  4th Amoung bigs is better than Kanter, Townes, Both the Gasol Brothers, Both the Lopez Brothers and Al Horford. 

Frank Kaminsky got 2 more attempts per game than Dwight and he shot 39% from the field. 

[Diesel]

14 hours ago, marco102 said:

And when Demon and Dennis play better together, please promise me you will post nothing but positives about Dennis for the remainder of his contract (s) in Atlanta.

What do you call better??  Do you mean that Demon won't look for the Ball and Dennis will be able to score all he wants?

Are you talking about playing better as a PG or a scorer?  I give a damn about Dennis scoring more.  Especially if it's killing the rest of the team.. 

[Plainview1981]

It doesn't matter if the stretch 4's and 5's are a fad or not. Howard is an aging player. He wouldn't have been happy on a rebuilding team and he is outdated for the current game.... Even if the stretch 4's and 5's are a tad, he will be retired or near retired by the time the "fad" is over with. So, it doesn't really mean anything.

The bottom line is that Dwight doesn't want to do anything other than getting the ball in the post and he isn't a good enough offensive player now to justify a large number of shots. No, I don't care that he had a high FG%. Feeding the ball to him now is not a winning proposition. He will slow down and stagnate offenses due to him turning the ball over, missing free throws and not being able to pass out of double teams. There were plenty of games where he looked about 5-7 years older than he actually is. Perhaps his back gives him trouble a lot of nights.

Again, it would be so much easier if Dwight would accept his limitations at this point. I doubt he will ever do so.

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, Hotlanta1981 said:

It doesn't matter if the stretch 4's and 5's are a fad or not. Howard is an aging player. He wouldn't have been happy on a rebuilding team and he is outdated for the current game.... Even if the stretch 4's and 5's are a tad, he will be retired or near retired by the time the "fad" is over with. So, it doesn't really mean anything.

The bottom line is that Dwight doesn't want to do anything other than getting the ball in the post and he isn't a good enough offensive player now to justify a large number of shots. No, I don't care that he had a high FG%. Feeding the ball to him now is not a winning proposition. He will slow down and stagnate offenses due to him turning the ball over, missing free throws and not being able to pass out of double teams. There were plenty of games where he looked about 5-7 years older than he actually is. Perhaps his back gives him trouble a lot of nights.

Again, it would be so much easier if Dwight would accept his limitations at this point. I doubt he will ever do so.

Whether he wanted to stay or not is not the question.   The question is what did we do with him when we had him..  IMO, we misused him.   Now we want to point the finger at him and say... it's his fault that we misused him. 

 

You said " No, I don't care that he had a high FG%."...   See... this is the problem.  This is why people who follow basketball thinks that Atlanta have Numbnuts for fans.  You are willing to ignore that a guy can score at a high percentage... why???  IN the same breath, you try to justify not getting him the ball. 

[AHF]

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Whether he wanted to stay or not is not the question.   The question is what did we do with him when we had him..  IMO, we misused him.   Now we want to point the finger at him and say... it's his fault that we misused him. 

 

You said " No, I don't care that he had a high FG%."...   See... this is the problem.  This is why people who follow basketball thinks that Atlanta have Numbnuts for fans.  You are willing to ignore that a guy can score at a high percentage... why???  IN the same breath, you try to justify not getting him the ball. 

There is a combination of how he was used and how he failed to adapt to the role he was given.  He could have been a lot more successful if he had decided to make the best of it and screen hard and role hard to the basket.  He didn't do either of those and this isn't the first team that was frustrated by his unwillingness to do so.

On the FG%, you can't ignore a guy with that high a percentage but you also can't ignore how he got that %.  A guy who isn't super skilled is likely to see his efficiency and his FGA go in opposite directions because big men will have a baseline of super efficient clean up shots (grab an offense rebound and score like 70% of the time) and then layer on less efficient post up plays.  We've seen the numbers on Dwight before and he isn't elite on post-ups.  He is elite as a roller in the P&R and in the role that all big men who can rebound play - clean  up junk around the basket.  

It is because you are layering on less efficient shots onto the baseline of super efficient shots that you see a lot of big men decrease their fg% as their attempts go up.

Examples:

Hassan Whiteside

8.1 FGA, 62.8% FG%

9.3 FGA, 60.6% FG%

12.6 FGA, 55.7% FG%

 

Andre Drummand

Seasons with less than 10 FGA (or 10.6 FGA/36 or less):  61.8% FG%

Seasons with more than 10 FGA (or 13.6 FGA/36 or more):  52.2% FG%

 

Andrew Bogut

Among his seasons playing 33 or more games, his lowest 3 FG% seasons are his 3 highest FGA/36 and his 4 highest FG% seasons include his 3 lowest FGA/36.

 

Etc.

Dwight himself has seen his FGA decline each of the last 3 seasons and his FG% increase each of those seasons as well.  Should be expected that his FG% isn't a true reflection of what his efficiency would look like with more shots.  The real question then is what his efficiency is on those post up opportunities and whether that is a value add to the team or not.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

There is a combination of how he was used and how he failed to adapt to the role he was given.  He could have been a lot more successful if he had decided to make the best of it and screen hard and role hard to the basket.  He didn't do either of those and this isn't the first team that was frustrated by his unwillingness to do so.

On the FG%, you can't ignore a guy with that high a percentage but you also can't ignore how he got that %.  A guy who isn't super skilled is likely to see his efficiency and his FGA go in opposite directions because big men will have a baseline of super efficient clean up shots (grab an offense rebound and score like 70% of the time) and then layer on less efficient post up plays.  We've seen the numbers on Dwight before and he isn't elite on post-ups.  He is elite as a roller in the P&R and in the role that all big men who can rebound play - clean  up junk around the basket.  

It is because you are layering on less efficient shots onto the baseline of super efficient shots that you see a lot of big men decrease their fg% as their attempts go up.

Examples:

Hassan Whiteside

8.1 FGA, 62.8% FG%

9.3 FGA, 60.6% FG%

12.6 FGA, 55.7% FG%

 

Andre Drummand

Seasons with less than 10 FGA (or 10.6 FGA/36 or less):  61.8% FG%

Seasons with more than 10 FGA (or 13.6 FGA/36 or more):  52.2% FG%

 

Andrew Bogut

Among his seasons playing 33 or more games, his lowest 3 FG% seasons are his 3 highest FGA/36 and his 4 highest FG% seasons include his 3 lowest FGA/36.

 

Etc.

Dwight himself has seen his FGA decline each of the last 3 seasons and his FG% increase each of those seasons as well.  Should be expected that his FG% isn't a true reflection of what his efficiency would look like with more shots.  The real question then is what his efficiency is on those post up opportunities and whether that is a value add to the team or not.

yes, but a dump into the post isn't always a shot.  Many times that dump in is an immediately kick out to reset positioning, a cut off the big on the opposite side or a spot up 3.

 

The point is, tossing it in to Dwight in the post forces the Defense to move, to deal with a different threat.  Failing to do so limited the hawks to only one offensive play....Dennis ISO for the drive finishing with a score, turnover (often attributed to who he passed to, not his too deep drive and pass at the ankles), a Dennis miss or assist. Well more often than a missed Dwight post, the result of a Dennis ISO was a bad pass or missed layup. Mainly because the defense knew it was coming and had time to get set.

The point of the Dwight post is offensive set diversity. It isn't about Dwight scoring or not scoring. It is the number of good things that can happen when  defense has to collapse.

[AHF]

I think scoring is the main good thing that comes out of Dwight in the post given his limited passing skills, though.  He has never managed to average 2 assists per game even when Orlando was happy to forcefeed him in the post.  On the negative side of the D collapsing on him, he has a healthy 3.0 turnovers per game (and a little higher per 36).  The nice thing for Dwight's prime was that he did draw sufficient attention from the D to result in some open 3's.  He doesn't draw that same attention anymore.

Guys like Hakeem and Duncan I am all about the value from their post play given their ability to exploit defensive attention (both of those guys had more like a 1:1 A:TO ratio while Dwight is closer to 1:2).