Lil Goldie is just like Teague but with far more aggression

[TheNorthCydeRises]

While I didn't agree with your last reply to me, I'll "like" your post anyway, simply for defending your position with a few data sets.  I'll reply in depth later today.

[DBac]

I could care less about who is getting the points as long as they are uber efficient at it.

 

Saw this point made somewhere, but the Hawks may be using this year to develop John Collins role player skills. Remember how small Kawhi's role was originally on SA, then he had a solid base to build on (3nD) while he developed his scoring/handling ability. Collins is pretty efficient, but not realistic to expect him to come into the league a faceup star ala Paul Millsap... let him develop his offball game this year. That's how I've made peace with the guards seemingly ignoring him every game outside of a few lobs.

[nathan2331]

I could care less about who is getting the points as long as they are uber efficient at it.

 

Saw this point made somewhere, but the Hawks may be using this year to develop John Collins role player skills. Remember how small Kawhi's role was originally on SA, then he had a solid base to build on (3nD) while he developed his scoring/handling ability. Collins is pretty efficient, but not realistic to expect him to come into the league a faceup star ala Paul Millsap... let him develop his offball game this year. That's how I've made peace with the guards seemingly ignoring him every game outside of a few lobs.

That's a good take I never really considered. If he can develop those other skills that don't show up on a stat sheet, we'll end up with a more complete player down the road. You'd think you could do that while still incorporating him more within the offense, but Bud has my trust when it comes to developing players.

[JTB]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

While I didn't agree with your last reply to me, I'll "like" your post anyway, simply for defending your position with a few data sets.  I'll reply in depth later today.

I like this post cause you are bodying “The Diesel” lol.

hell I’ve always liked Dennis but after reading your post I like him even more now ! Never took the time to look at all these advanced stats but the most impressive was you mentioning how “Dennis has assisted on 37.3% of the Hawks assisted FGs . . . which ranks 7th in the NBA.  His 6.7 assists ranks him 9th in the league.”

That right there should kill the idea that Dennis can’t be a playmaker on a consistent basis and while I agree he’s still more of a scoring guard than he is a playmaking guard it doesn’t mean we can’t win with him running point. But it does show that we need another playmaker to pair with him badly just so all this responsibility won’t be only on him....which is why I said some months ago of course I’m not sure cause I don’t personally know bud or anyone on the hawks staff but “I JUST KNOW DONCIC is likely number one on the draft list for the hawks to get another playmaker here to help Dennis run the offense in the half court”.....

I don’t want to turn this into a draft debate just wanted to throw in my two cents during y’alls debate....PLEASE CARRY ON WITH THE DENNIS DISCUSSION.

[Peoriabird]

Our offense is fine and will only get better...Its our defense and rebounding that stink to high heaven.  The Turnovers are a little high but the majority can be attributed to Baze and Prince not the point guard position.  We need defense and rebounding period!

[deester11]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I like this post cause you are bodying “The Diesel” lol.

hell I’ve always liked Dennis but after reading your post I like him even more now ! Never took the time to look at all these advanced stats but the most impressive was you mentioning how “Dennis has assisted on 37.3% of the Hawks assisted FGs . . . which ranks 7th in the NBA.  His 6.7 assists ranks him 9th in the league.”

That right there should kill the idea that Dennis can’t be a playmaker on a consistent basis and while I agree he’s still more of a scoring guard than he is a playmaking guard it doesn’t mean we can’t win with him running point. But it does show that we need another playmaker to pair with him badly just so all this responsibility won’t be only on him....which is why I said some months ago of course I’m not sure cause I don’t personally know bud or anyone on the hawks staff but “I JUST KNOW DONCIC is likely number one on the draft list for the hawks to get another playmaker here to help Dennis run the offense in the half court”.....

I don’t want to turn this into a draft debate just wanted to throw in my two cents during y’alls debate....PLEASE CARRY ON WITH THE DENNIS DISCUSSION.

Agree. Good post. 

[MaceCase]

The days of the pass first PG helping lead a team to a championship have been dead long before the extinction of the back to the basket big man.  To use that against Dennis is either being stuck in nostalgia or trying to find something to nitpick as part of an agenda.  You can't look at the Kyries, Stephs, Lillards, Lowrys, Kembas, Westbrooks, and Isaiah Thomas as guys who populate the MVP, All Star, All NBA, and championship discussions and say "Dennis needs to do the opposite of that to be successful".

[JTB]

3 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Our offense is fine and will only get better...Its our defense and rebounding that stink to high heaven.  The Turnovers are a little high but the majority can be attributed to Baze and Prince not the point guard position.  We need defense and rebounding period!

It probably won’t happen this year cause bud likely won’t get these guys to care enough to play hard on defense but I do believe next season things will get a whole lot better if Schlenk can at the least make some decent moves.

i know our numbers are absolutely atrocious but call me crazy I don’t feel we have a individual defensive problem with the starters.

-Dennis can play good on ball defense but his biggest flaw is trusting his teammates while he is off ball and getting around screens. The off ball defense is an easy fix, it’s simply building trust in the team.

-Prince can do it all. I’m convinced Prince is an all around defender but the amount of Ls we are getting is just making him lose his motivation to put the energy in on defense for 48 minutes.

 

i pointed those two out strictly because that’s who gets the blame majority of the time for defense on these boards.

[JTB]

3 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

The days of the pass first PG helping lead a team to a championship have been dead long before the extinction of the back to the basket big man.  To use that against Dennis is either being stuck in nostalgia or trying to find something to nitpick as part of an agenda.  You can't look at the Kyries, Stephs, Lillards, Lowrys, Kembas, Westbrooks, and Isaiah Thomas as guys who populate the MVP, All Star, All NBA, and championship discussions and say "Dennis needs to do the opposite of that to be successful".

Amen! Preach!

like I said I want Dennis to be the next tony Parker. He’s got that mid range shot down and he’s avg the assist. I’m fine with my point guard avg 20/7 and if he can do 18/7 like TP over his career great ! 

[Lurker]

7 minutes ago, MaceCase said:

The days of the pass first PG helping lead a team to a championship have been dead long before the extinction of the back to the basket big man.  To use that against Dennis is either being stuck in nostalgia or trying to find something to nitpick as part of an agenda.  You can't look at the Kyries, Stephs, Lillards, Lowrys, Kembas, Westbrooks, and Isaiah Thomas as guys who populate the MVP, All Star, All NBA, and championship discussions and say "Dennis needs to do the opposite of that to be successful".

He actually called Lowry a "pass first PG". This is just being silly.

[Lurker]

The general idea of a team today is to have at least 2 players that are able to pass and initiate offense effectively. 

[Peoriabird]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

It probably won’t happen this year cause bud likely won’t get these guys to care enough to play hard on defense but I do believe next season things will get a whole lot better if Schlenk can at the least make some decent moves.

i know our numbers are absolutely atrocious but call me crazy I don’t feel we have a individual defensive problem with the starters.

 

As far as defense is concerned...Schlenk wasn't forcing Bud to start Luke babbitt at power forward.  Secondly, you didn't address our rebounding problem which is far worse than our defense.  I think we are dead last in rebounding differential.

[Diesel]

19 hours ago, DBac said:

I could care less about who is getting the points as long as they are uber efficient at it.

 

Saw this point made somewhere, but the Hawks may be using this year to develop John Collins role player skills. Remember how small Kawhi's role was originally on SA, then he had a solid base to build on (3nD) while he developed his scoring/handling ability. Collins is pretty efficient, but not realistic to expect him to come into the league a faceup star ala Paul Millsap... let him develop his offball game this year. That's how I've made peace with the guards seemingly ignoring him every game outside of a few lobs.

Kawhi's role was small playing next to 3 Hall of Famers.   Otherwise, It doesn't suit a player with Collins potential to play a small role.   It stunts his growth. 

[Lurker]

Like I've said, I think Bud is trying to pull what other coaches have done and make Collins spend a while being a role player instead of being one of the stars. I actually disagree with this, but I think it's what's going on. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Lurker

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, JTB said:

I like this post cause you are bodying “The Diesel” lol.

hell I’ve always liked Dennis but after reading your post I like him even more now ! Never took the time to look at all these advanced stats but the most impressive was you mentioning how “Dennis has assisted on 37.3% of the Hawks assisted FGs . . . which ranks 7th in the NBA.  His 6.7 assists ranks him 9th in the league.”

That right there should kill the idea that Dennis can’t be a playmaker on a consistent basis and while I agree he’s still more of a scoring guard than he is a playmaking guard it doesn’t mean we can’t win with him running point. But it does show that we need another playmaker to pair with him badly just so all this responsibility won’t be only on him....which is why I said some months ago of course I’m not sure cause I don’t personally know bud or anyone on the hawks staff but “I JUST KNOW DONCIC is likely number one on the draft list for the hawks to get another playmaker here to help Dennis run the offense in the half court”.....

I don’t want to turn this into a draft debate just wanted to throw in my two cents during y’alls debate....PLEASE CARRY ON WITH THE DENNIS DISCUSSION.

The problem with all that is that we're the worst team in the league.   In terms of offensive rating, we're 17th in the league.  Amongst starting Guards in the League, Dennis Offensive Rtg = 69th.   Just for comparison:   Bellinelli = 6, Teague = 33.  And you're trying to tell me that Dennis is on the level with Teague??  (BTW, Defensive Rating amoung starting Guards = ranked  115)    Think about that? 

Let's go back to the offensive rtg for a second.  Ranked 69th in the league means that all of the starting PGs and Starting SGs are ranked ahead of him.. technically. 

What is Offensive rating?  

Quote

 

In Dean's words, "Individual offensive rating is the number of points produced by a player per hundred total individual possessions. In other words, 'How many points is a player likely to generate when he tries?'"

The basic building blocks of the Offensive Rating calculation are Individual Total Possessions and Individual Points Produced. The formula for Total Possessions is broken down into four components: Scoring Possessions, Missed FG Possessions, Missed FT Possessions, and Turnovers.

 

 

[JTB]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The problem with all that is that we're the worst team in the league.   In terms of offensive rating, we're 17th in the league.  Amongst starting Guards in the League, Dennis Offensive Rtg = 69th.   Just for comparison:   Bellinelli = 6, Teague = 33.  And you're trying to tell me that Dennis is on the level with Teague??  (BTW, Defensive Rating amoung starting Guards = ranked  115)    Think about that? 

Let's go back to the offensive rtg for a second.  Ranked 69th in the league means that all of the starting PGs and Starting SGs are ranked ahead of him.. technically. 

What is Offensive rating?  

 

Clearly your comparing this roster that’s not as talented as any of rosters Teague played on while he was here. Your kidding yourself if you think passive ass Teague would have done better than Dennis if he were in this tanking situation. 

LOL but carry on.....I find it so funny you try to find a way to bash Dennis. It’s really pathetic honestly. 

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, MaceCase said:

The days of the pass first PG helping lead a team to a championship have been dead long before the extinction of the back to the basket big man.  To use that against Dennis is either being stuck in nostalgia or trying to find something to nitpick as part of an agenda.  You can't look at the Kyries, Stephs, Lillards, Lowrys, Kembas, Westbrooks, and Isaiah Thomas as guys who populate the MVP, All Star, All NBA, and championship discussions and say "Dennis needs to do the opposite of that to be successful".

This is not true.   There's a passer on each championship team.   Whether it's Lebron or Draymond/Steph... there's a guy that's initiating offense and getting guys involved.   Now, for a minute, we can pretend as if Lebron doesn't distribute and when he can't he just goes for points...  When you take a look at Kyrie, Kyrie could afford to be a scoring PG... but tell me which of these guys you mentioned has even sniffed championship??  Westbrook?  Kemba?  Lillard?  

I would say that Lowry and Tony Parker are more distributor than me first scorers.  

When you talk about Dennis, he's the only passer on our non-passing team.   We don't have anybody to help him with Assists.  Then somehow, we confuse that to mean that we're playing like Steph and Kyrie...  Hello, we're the Lebron James who is making all the passes for this team or how about Draymond who is doing his part to initiate the offense.   

As I always say, you can change the positions, you may rename them, you may totally take them out of basketball, but you will still need the skillsets in order to win. 

 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, JTB said:

Clearly your comparing this roster that’s not as talented as any of rosters Teague played on while he was here. Your kidding yourself if you think passive ass Teague would have done better than Dennis if he were in this tanking situation. 

LOL but carry on.....I find it so funny you try to find a way to bash Dennis. It’s really pathetic honestly. 

Dennis = Flashy but not effective.  That's the problem.   If Dennis wants to impress with his aggressiveness, maybe he needs to be aggressive on defense?  Maybe, he can be aggressive enough to not be the 115th ranked starting guard by defensive rating standards.   Does his aggressiveness pass your eye test??

[Diesel]

20 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Like I've said, I think Bud is trying to pull what other coaches have done and make Collins spend a while being a role player instead of being one of the stars. I actually disagree with this, but I think it's what's going on. 

BS.  You don't take a diaper dandy taken in the first round and make him be a role player on a team lacking talent.   What the hell are you teaching him to be when more talent comes in???

[Lurker]

8 minutes ago, Diesel said:

BS.  You don't take a diaper dandy taken in the first round and make him be a role player on a team lacking talent.   What the hell are you teaching him to be when more talent comes in???

Considering how none of the guards on the team look to go to Collins in the low post, I 100% believe it's a coaching decision and stand by it. I'd have a completely different feeling if we saw every guard other than Dennis look for him in the low post.

You may hate it, but Bud is of a different breed.