Trae Young - The Man, The Viper, and The Prosecution aka The MVP aka Ice Trae

[AHF]

28 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Looking at this brass though I’m not holding my breath on any significant, obviously improving moves.  Need more yachts and land acquisitions!

Most teams have a couple players at the end of their bench with great metrics.  I need a barf bag looking at how the Hawks fleshed out their roster.  On what planet should Patty be making $7 milly?  Thank goodness for Jalen wildly outplaying his rookie deal.

 

Our roster beyond our top 8 is the worst in the league and a contender for least productive in NBA history.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

@TheNorthCydeRises

 

[Final_quest]

5 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

@TheNorthCydeRises

 

Devin Booker didn’t win more than 24 games in a season his first 4 years.  Then won 34 games in season 5.  
Phoenix lands CP3 and they start making the playoffs.  

[JeffS17]

I dont think we need a superstar level player to pair with Trae.  I think you put him on the court with an allstar or borderline allstar big and hes going to make that big look like a superstar.  Someone like Ingram or Siakam or a guy like Chet or Lauri, etc.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

38 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I dont think we need a superstar level player to pair with Trae.  I think you put him on the court with an allstar or borderline allstar big and hes going to make that big look like a superstar.  Someone like Ingram or Siakam or a guy like Chet or Lauri, etc.

 

If Trae is putting up these numbers, and we were a top 3 team in the East, he'd be up for MVP consideration.

But when you talk about championships, you normally need a superstar level player.

So while you don't believe Trae is that superstar, you believe that Trae can turn a decent all-star frontcourt player into a superstar?

[JeffS17]

15 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So while you don't believe Trae is that superstar, you believe that Trae can turn a decent all-star frontcourt player into a superstar?

Yes, but superstar is a vague term that has no quantifiable meaning.  And what I meant by that, is he could make an all-star level player look like a superstar, i.e "superstar" production on the court.  We could debate the term "superstar" endlessly, but from what I see around, my definition has a higher bar than most.  Just saying "superstar" over and over creates a weird semantic satiation where the term loses some meaning.

Also, I think the way you've framed this discussion and question is baiting me to say negative things about Trae, which I don't really want to do.  Others take that bait, often, and it leads nowhere.

[macdaddy]

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

 

 

Absolutely outstanding.

[kg01]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

 

 

But folks call him the problem?

"Bbbut he took that one shot..."

"A-a-and he turned the ball over that one time.."

Folks out here with a super model tal'm 'bout, "Her elbows are too pointy. A-a-and i dont like her hair in a ponytail." 

Smh 

[warcore]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Folks out here with a super model tal'm 'bout, "Her elbows are too pointy. A-a-and i dont like her hair in a ponytail." 

Love me a good pony tail. And pointy elbows for that matter!

[Spud2nique]

14 hours ago, warcore said:

pony

we played Pictionary with some friends I had the word pony. I drew a big blob (a big horse ) then a lil blob with a messed up horse beak. 
 

MY TEAM: LITTLE HORSE !!!!

Me:  

Drew a lady with hair in a pony tail. Pointed at the hair with the pen … then back and forth baby horse to hair…

Teammate: “that’s not helping”… 

Me:  

DAYUMMM @warcore I needed you. My dudes were mad zoned out and drunk. 
 

[Spud2nique]

Trae is breaking records with dudes from past and present.. crazy nimbers!

First it was the 30/10 club now the 40/10! Let’s goooo!

 

Edited January 3 by Spud2nique

[Spud2nique]

For those who like Booker over Trae, enjoy! This cat is a d!ck. Ya Metu turned it but he was trying to get the ball to you and you came off the curl lazy as usual.

I don’t think Trae would do this.. I dunno I don’t like it. It’s not leadership he’s just kind of dissin dude for not getting back. If I’m Metu I accidentally lay his ass out in practice oops Devin was that your face? lol.

 

[shakes]

3 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

For those who like Booker over Trae, enjoy! This cat is a d!ck. Ya Metu turned it but he was trying to get the ball to you and you came off the curl lazy as usual.

I don’t think Trae would do this.. I dunno I don’t like it. It’s not leadership he’s just kind of dissin dude for not getting back. If I’m Metu I accidentally lay his ass out in practice oops Devin was that your face? lol.

 

I'm with Booker 100% on that.  Not sure how you can look at that otherwise.   Also Metu is a major ass.   Just google "metu" and "nut shots".

 

It really shouldn't be a hard concept.  You turn it over you run back hard on defense.

[warcore]

3 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

horse beak

 

[Dnice]

Before Hawks PR or the media admin gets to it, Trae roughly has 160 points to 10k. Just something to look out for. 

 

[benhillboy]

Trae ranks 68th in the league in assist to turnover ratio and shoots two pointers well below league average (-11%).  Two of the numerous reasons why he lags so far behind Bogi and Bey in on/off team offensive rating difference :

 

Bogi’s gravity and Bey’s timely offensive rebounding actually helps the team create separation.  Trae’s impact has and will always amount to about a point per game give or take (cool return on a max deal). The team’s total on/off per 100 checks out very accurately with the tape save for OO who’s off value is inflated by Clint who clearly doesn’t want to be here anymore:

This is the company Trae keeps in terms of on/off:

There are only 3 proven playoff players here in Bam, Klay (who’s been cooked), and Steph.  Five other players I would welcome on my team in Okoro, Caruso, Cam Johnson, Brogdon, and Bridges.  Scottie Barnes and Mathurin are just alright.  The rest of this list is filler including the Hawks’ $58 million backcourt.

I wish yall would stop reaching with the trade proposals and blaming role players.  Hawks have done as admirable a job as they could surrounding him with the lob threats (at one point John, OO, and Clint were all in the top 7 or so in lob finishes) and shooting (4 players currently shooting threes above league average) that is required to supplement him.  Of course there isn’t any cap space left for a mid market team to acquire high end defenders.  
 

There simply was never a sound build to be had around this kid on a max deal.  With so many East players like Banchero, White, Tatum, Maxey, Mitchell, Brunson, and Haliburton making huge leaps in their game as teams have figured out Trae’s PNR tendencies and limiting cheap fouls, it’s hopeless.  The common denominator in all of these dreadful defensive ratings since ‘18-‘19 is HIM.

 

stats courtesy of the historical authority on NBA statistics BB Ref.

Edited January 8 by benhillboy

[RedDawg#8]

No better way to start off the day/week than with an agenda!

Thanks for the breakdown @benhillboy have a happy Monday!

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

No better way to start off the day/week than with an agenda!

Thanks for the breakdown @benhillboy have a happy Monday!

When forces come against Trae, the counter argument has to come.   I do always appreciate @benhillboy with his statistical breakdown on why Trae isn't as great as people like me say he is.

But watch this.

 

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

Trae ranks 68th in the league in assist to turnover ratio and shoots two pointers well below league average (-11%).  Two of the numerous reasons why he lags so far behind Bogi and Bey in on/off team offensive rating difference :

 

Bogi’s gravity and Bey’s timely offensive rebounding actually helps the team create separation.  Trae’s impact has and will always amount to about a point per game give or take (cool return on a max deal). The team’s total on/off per 100 checks out very accurately with the tape save for OO who’s off value is inflated by Clint who clearly doesn’t want to be here anymore:

 

Great numbers.  But you need to explore WHY Bogi and Bey's offensive rating and on/off are so high.

It's because of Trae.

( Damn . . . ya'll gonna make me late for work . . lol )

 

Hawks team 5-man group

Our Top 8 lineups in minutes feature Trae.  The one that is a huge negative, is the Trae - Murray - Bey - JJ - Capela lineup, which is the one we've been recently running without 12 in the lineup.  That team has been getting smoked recently on defense, and can't generate enough offense. 

The lineup with Trae - Murray - Hunter - JJ - Capela has also been a negative linup, but not as much.

The other 6 lineups have been positive groupings.  So let's break down Bey and Bogi's lineups specifically

 

Bey 5-man

 

6 of Bey's top 7 lineups in minutes are a positive grouping.  In all but one of those positive lineups, Trae is on the court with him as the PG.

So let's go to the 4-man lineup combinations to see which Trio works together with him.

Sorting his lineups from positive to negative, you see who is on the court with him.

 

 

Both Murray and Trae have excelled with this particular grouping  ( Bey - Bogi - Okongwu ).  You are correct that the spacing and gravity that Bey and Bogi has on the court, helps the team offensively.  But someone has to get them the ball.  And who gets them the ball?

It's #11

 

You see, it's Trae that is the maestro that stirs the drink.

Trae is directly responsible for 50% of the 3 point makes that Bogi gets.  Bogi shoots a whopping 46% from 3, off of Trae's passes.

Trae is directly responsible for 25% of the 3 point makes that Bey gets.  That number would be much higher if Bey didn't miss so many corner 3 passes he receive from Trae.  Bey only shoots 33% off of Trae's passes for 3 point attempts.

Bogi's lineups tell the same story

 

When paired with Bey, both PGs have shooters that they can throw the ball to, and they normally excel also with Okongwu in the middle.

And his 3-man lineups ( which are all positive per 100 possessions ), show that Trae is the PG on the floor with him that he has the most success with

 

The culprit here is actually not Trae that's potentially holding us back as a team.  It's Capela and 12.

Look up their on/off numbers and tell me what you see.  Nevermind.  I'll do it for you.

And I LOVE the fact that my dude Bruno is at the top of this list.  Kind of says something about the potential skill set and energy he could bring to a lineup, if he played with other high level dudes.  ( I know it's a small sample size, but still ).

 

 

Murray, specifically gets hammered when playing with those two, due to Clint's inability to score unless he grabs offensive rebounds or is set up at point blank range.  I won't talk about 12 because people get upset sometimes when you show negative numbers about him.

 

I gotta go to work, but you have enough to chew on here.  I might come back to this later, to specifically hammer on Steph Curry.  Don't give that dude a pass.  There's a reason why he's at the bottom of this list.

 

 

 

 

 

[AHF]

The day I stop seeing simple assist to turnover ratio used to compare Trae against non-scorers will be a good one.  (Scorers have turnovers they generate from scoring attempts that players like Chris Paul do not.)