Do you think the Grizzles are doing a better job rebuilding?

[marco102]

Which team do you think has the higher ceiling? The Grizzles or the Hawks? Coming into this season our young core was the envy of the league.  Now it seems Memphis has taken that mantle away.  If you look position by position, which young core do you think has the most upside? 

PG - Trae Young Vs Ja Morant

SG - Kevin Huerter/Cam Reddish vs Dillion Brooks

SF - De'Andre Hunter vs Justice Winslow/Brandon Clarke

PF - John Collins vs Jaren Jackson Jr.

C  - Client Capella vs Jonas Valanciunas

Feel free to add Bruno/ Skal? and any other of Memphis' young players. 

 

Edited February 7, 2020 by marco102

[KB21]

Definitely the Grizzlies.

[marco102]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

Definitely the Grizzlies.

This is a more position by position break down.  Who you think has the advantage and why. 

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, marco102 said:

This is a more position by position break down.  Who you think has the advantage and why. 

I don’t really need to do a position by position breakdown.  They are 26-25 and in the playoffs right now in the West.  They have a much better head coach than the Hawks have.  Based on the results, they have a better GM as well. 

[marco102]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

I don’t really need to do a position by position breakdown.  They are 26-25 and in the playoffs right now in the West.  They have a much better head coach than the Hawks have.  Based on the results, they have a better GM as well. 

So what you are saying is tanking does work with young players! GOT EEEMMM!!!

[turnermx]

12 minutes ago, marco102 said:

This is a more position by position break down.  Who you think has the advantage and why. 

https://www.lineups.com/nba/roster/memphis-grizzlies

Whoever wrote this up believes Grizz return to the playoffs in 2023.  If the Grizz are doing this KB's way, if this person is right, they still miss KB's 5 year window.

[NBASupes]

I like both rebuilds. 

I've been very impressed with Memphis. Dillon Brooks was a steal. I had Ja Morant as my #2 prospect and Brandon Clarke was tied for #4 with Cam, Coby, Bol, and Darius. 

I wasn't big on their pick of JJJ and he hasn't set the world on fire but I see his value to winning and I respect him. 

I really like Jonas for them. He fits very well like Dedmon for us last year. 

I really like their bench. Melton has been living up to the draftniks hype. Kyle Anderson been tremendous in his role. And before they traded away Crowder, I loved him as a starter. Tyus Jones has been a gem for them as well as a backup PG. 

All in all, impressive rebuilding effort. They fit, they have two building blocks in Morant and Clarke. JJJ has a high end role player potential role and Brooks has been excellent in his role. 

For me, how we they do when Jonas is gets old as they get into their primes is my question. 

Sky is the limit.

For us. Before all of the trades starting with Jeff....

I love our core. 

Trae Young potential to be one of the greatest offensive players of all time 

Cam Reddish elite two way potential in our system

Hunter high end role playing protenial.

Huerter high end PDS potential

Collins two way movement specialist potential

Bruno's potential to be a good player.

I loved our core. 

Role players I hated. I didn't see one player outside of the core with a future with the Hawks. 

I was right. I kinda want to wait to the end of the season to answer this question. Based on facts of what we seen excluding Goodwin and Teague, Memphis has had a better rebuild so far. Atlanta has a better and more talented core.

Atlanta has really upped the non core of late. I look forward to seeing where both teams go into the future. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by NBASupes

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, marco102 said:

So what you are saying is tanking does work with young players! GOT EEEMMM!!!

Except they didn’t tank.

[marco102]

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Except they didn’t tank.

They tanked like hell not to give Boston that pick.  They sat healthy players for the remainder of the season so they could lose more. 

Tanking = losing purposely. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by marco102

[JTB]

This is a very good topic unfortunately I’m going to be honest and say .....maybe!

yup maybe! ...maybe they are doing a better job but it’s easy to say that when you point to the record but that’s not completely fair.

im saying that because Schlenk purposely placed very bad vets Arjuna this young core group as he was planning to tank not thinking trae could emerge to a mvp stat line like he has in just year 2!

so if we could redo year 2 (traes year 2) and If we knew he was going to take off like this ....if Schlenk puts average vets around this team and if Collins dont get suspended I truly wholeheartedly believe that we are a 7th or 8th seed right now or 9th seed maybe a game out the playoffs.

Edited February 7, 2020 by JTB

[AHF]

The Grizzlies did a nice job of tanking and are on their way up.  They got themselves two top 5 picks to build around in JJJ and Ja Morant.  JJJ is a very versatile piece and easy to put people around.  Ja is a star in the making.  They've given tons of minutes to their youngsters to develop them and are seeing results with 4 of their top 5 mpg people being guys to whom they fed minutes from day 1:

Morant 30 mpg as a rookie

Dillon Brooks 29 mpg as a rookie

Clarke 22 mpg as a rookie

JJJ 26 mpg as a rookie

They also did what TS is talking about by adding a young player another team didn't want as much in 26 yo Jonas Valanciunas who has been great for them.

I wouldn't trade our roster for theirs but if I were a Grizzlies fan I would probably say the same thing (wouldn't trade our roster for the Hawks).  I think both can be exciting teams in the next few years.

[NBASupes]

I didn't realize Jonas is only 27 and 28 when the season ends. Memphis is in excellent shape.

[kg01]

41 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Which team do you think has the higher ceiling? The Grizzles or the Hawks? Coming into this season our young core was the envy of the league.  Now it seems Memphis has taken that mantle away.  If you look position by position, which young core do you think has the most upside? 

PG - Trae Young Vs Ja Morant

SG - Kevin Huerter/Cam Reddish vs Dillion Brooks

SF - De'Andre Hunter vs Justice Winslow/Brandon Clarke

PF - John Collins vs Jaren Jackson Jr.

C  - Client Capella vs Jonas Valanciunas

Feel free to add Bruno/ Skal? and any other of Memphis' young players. 

 

 

24 minutes ago, marco102 said:

So what you are saying is tanking does work with young players! GOT EEEMMM!!!

[AHF]

27 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Except they didn’t tank.

Not only did they tank it was almost identical to ours.

In 2016-17 both the Hawks and Grizzlies won 43 games. 

2017-18 - Both teams started their rebuild the next season.  The Grizzlies went from a 43 win lineup filled with veterans such as Marc Gasol, Mike Conley, Tony Allen, Vince Carter and Zach Randolph (5 of their top 6 mpg players) and then either ditched those veterans (Allen, Carter, Randolph) outright or sat them to tank (Conley).  It was openly discussed that Conley could have returned but didn't.  It succeeded.  In 2017-18, Memphis won 22 games that first year and picked JJJ.  Atlanta won more games at 24 that season. 

In 2018-19, they tried to trade their remaining vets (Gasol and Conley) and succeeded during the season with one of them (Gasol) and after the season with the other (Conley).  They actually played 28 players that season as they continued to churn the roster.  Memphis won 33 games and ended up with the #2 pick.  Another successful tank.  Atlanta won 29 games.

So during these two seasons, we won 53 games and they won 55 games.  Both teams ditched all the veterans that had them winning 43 games in 2016-17.  The net on that foundation is near identical through the end of last season.  The big difference is Memphis added useful 20 somethings to their roster and haven't had the kind of missing time Atlanta has had.  (No decimation of their frontcourt, extended time missing from their perimeter shooters, etc. and their 7-12 rotation players are ~+7WS while ours are +1WS giving them much better depth).

Memphis ended up going from a minute weighted averaged age of 29.5 when they started rebuilding to a current minute weighted average age of 24.04

Atlanta went from a minute weighted average age of 28 to our current average of 24.12.  

24.04 for Memphis / 24.12 for Atlanta - Almost identical roster revamping as far as taking an aging core and replacing it with one much younger and giving the minutes largely to young players.

 

[kg01]

The difference between us and them is they traded their aged vets (Conley and Gasol) while we held on and lost ours for nothing ('Sap and Horford). - Oddly, this runs contrary to what folks say they wanted us to do in continuing to "win" with our guys rather than reset.

MEM is in a great position but I think their current status is a bit misleading.  Methinks the second half will not be kind to Memphis. 

[JayBirdHawk]

58 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Which team do you think has the higher ceiling? The Grizzles or the Hawks? Coming into this season our young core was the envy of the league.  Now it seems Memphis has taken that mantle away.  If you look position by position, which young core do you think has the most upside? 

PG - Trae Young Vs Ja Morant

SG - Kevin Huerter/Cam Reddish vs Dillion Brooks

SF - De'Andre Hunter vs Justice Winslow/Brandon Clarke

PF - John Collins vs Jaren Jackson Jr.

C  - Client Capella vs Jonas Valanciunas

Feel free to add Bruno/ Skal? and any other of Memphis' young players. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, kg01 said:

 

 

Good call CageyOne....  @marco102 set a trap within a trap....He caught the big one.

 

[bleachkit]

I would give the edge to Memphis right now. But now that we have mixed in solid vets we should play .500 ball, which is what Memphis  has been playing. Next year will be a better barometer.

[KB21]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

Not only did they tank it was almost identical to ours.

In 2016-17 both the Hawks and Grizzlies won 43 games. 

2017-18 - Both teams started their rebuild the next season.  The Grizzlies went from a 43 win lineup filled with veterans such as Marc Gasol, Mike Conley, Tony Allen, Vince Carter and Zach Randolph (5 of their top 6 mpg players) and then either ditched those veterans (Allen, Carter, Randolph) outright or sat them to tank (Conley).  It was openly discussed that Conley could have returned but didn't.  It succeeded.  In 2017-18, Memphis won 22 games that first year and picked JJJ.  Atlanta won more games at 24 that season. 

In 2018-19, they tried to trade their remaining vets (Gasol and Conley) and succeeded during the season with one of them (Gasol) and after the season with the other (Conley).  They actually played 28 players that season as they continued to churn the roster.  Memphis won 33 games and ended up with the #2 pick.  Another successful tank.  Atlanta won 29 games.

So during these two seasons, we won 53 games and they won 55 games.  Both teams ditched all the veterans that had them winning 43 games in 2016-17.  The net on that foundation is near identical through the end of last season.  The big difference is Memphis added useful 20 somethings to their roster and haven't had the kind of missing time Atlanta has had.  (No decimation of their frontcourt, extended time missing from their perimeter shooters, etc. and their 7-12 rotation players are ~+7WS while ours are +1WS giving them much better depth).

Memphis ended up going from a minute weighted averaged age of 29.5 when they started rebuilding to a current minute weighted average age of 24.04

Atlanta went from a minute weighted average age of 28 to our current average of 24.12.  

24.04 for Memphis / 24.12 for Atlanta - Almost identical roster revamping as far as taking an aging core and replacing it with one much younger and giving the minutes largely to young players.

 

The Grizzlies did not tank.  They did not design their roster to lose games.  I know you guys want to justify and glamorize the art of intentionally losing games, but that’s not what the Grizzlies did.  

They were a poorly constructed roster that was besieged by injuries.  Losing games was never their focus.  That’s a major difference.  They didn’t build a losing culture like the Hawks have under Schlenk.  The Grizzlies were trying to win and couldn’t because of injuries and roster construction.  The Hawks, instead, set out to lose games and hired an unqualified coach to make it happen.

[RedDawg#8]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

The Grizzlies did not tank.  They did not design their roster to lose games.  I know you guys want to justify and glamorize the art of intentionally losing games, but that’s not what the Grizzlies did.  

They were a poorly constructed roster that was besieged by injuries.  Losing games was never their focus.  That’s a major difference.  They didn’t build a losing culture like the Hawks have under Schlenk.  The Grizzlies were trying to win and couldn’t because of injuries and roster construction.  The Hawks, instead, set out to lose games and hired an unqualified coach to make it happen.

Okay so can we count you off the bandwagon once this coach and core actually start winning next year? You apparently are sick to the stomach watching us play and cannot bring yourself to cheer us on as is

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

I would give the edge to Memphis right now. But now that we have mixed in solid vets we should play .500 ball, which is what Memphis  has been playing. Next year will be a better barometer.

Agreed.

Memphis also just traded 2 solid vets in Crowder (starting SF) and Hill for an injured Justise Winslow. He's played 11 games this season, out with a bad back. It'll be interesting to see how Memphis ends the season without their vets.