Collins has to PROVE more! Sorry but the clock starts now...

[AHF]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

I guess i'll break it down.

"This is coming from the player himself! (Collins)"   If players (refer to player in sentence 1<) continue to question LP then why are you guys still defending him?"

So you're saying that these two sentences DON'T mean Collins is questioning LP in your opinion?   

 

Everyone on the thread read that the same way.  It was obvious.

[Peoriabird]

36 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I guess i'll break it down.

"This is coming from the player himself! (Collins)"   If players (refer to player in sentence 1<) continue to question LP then why are you guys still defending him?"

So you're saying that these two sentences DON'T mean Collins is questioning LP in your opinion?   

 

To clarify...I didn't mean to imply that john said anything other than confirming that no plays are run for him. However, what I was trying to say is that the fact that plays aren't run for our most efficient player while being force to play out of position added to the fact that other players are complaining about LP make it hard for me to think that they want him to continue as their head coach.  Especially when you never hear players praising LP's coaching abilities.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

 Especially when you never hear players praising LP's coaching abilities.

They actually do.  Doesn't mean he is a great coach, but if you read interviews there are plenty of compliments thrown his way.  LP remains in the do-or-die stage next season for me.  

[Peoriabird]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

They actually do.  Doesn't mean he is a great coach, but if you read interviews there are plenty of compliments thrown his way.  LP remains in the do-or-die stage next season for me.  

Man I'm re watching some of these games and it is just flat out painful.  For Example,  Just finished watching the Home game against the Nuggets and Jokic was just wearing out our front court.  LP's solution?  Lets try John on him and when Collins darn near fouled out, he came up with the ultimate ingenious plan of putting Vince Carter on him.  We never got another defensive rebound after that.  I can't wait till this guy is gone!

[JayBirdHawk]

Partnow:

Quote

The improvement in his long-range shooting is encouraging, but his attempts are still on the low side, and while 34.8 percent on above the break 3s is acceptable, that number doesn’t have to drop much for him to become a spacing issue as a power forward, while I don’t tend to think corner 3-point shooting is an especially useful skill for stretch 4s for a number of reasons.

To me, he seems more in line for the kind of deal Aaron Gordon received from Orlando (4 years, $80 million), worth around 70-80 percent of a max deal if he were to sign an extension now. If he repeats last season’s production while showing he can be effective on both ends next to a true center, the decision becomes much easier to offer the max next offseason, but I wouldn’t do it now if I were Atlanta.

A further complication of extension negotiations will be timing. Given the unknown economic impacts of the current situation, max contracts have a much wider range of possible outcomes than ever before. Since “max” contracts to players coming off rookie scale deals are tied to the salary cap in place when the deal begins, such a deal could be relatively more expensive than similar contracts have been in the past in the face of a flat or declining salary cap, whereas if league revenues expand rapidly (possibly due to the NBA’s recent digital rights deal with Microsoft, for example) a luckily timed deal could prove a long-term bargain.

 

Kirschner:

Quote

To further state how good Collins is, while most casual observers of the Hawks might clearly say Trae Young is the best Hawks player, and it’s not even close, I would not call you crazy if you wanted to make the case for Collins. He’s that good. I don’t know if he’s going to shoot better than 40 percent from 3 consistently, but he’s clearly going to be a shooting threat moving forward, which is going to be critical on this team with the way it’s currently constructed.

It’s hard to play on a team like Atlanta’s where Young is obviously getting the most amount of shots and the rest of the players are left to get the scraps, but the Hawks should feature Collins more than they have. Head coach Lloyd Pierce has said on multiple occasions that he doesn’t call plays for Collins, and it’s difficult to do so, a notion, to be very clear, that Collins doesn’t like. At a minimum, watching Collins slip and cut when he’s moving off the ball should be rewarded more often than it is because he’s open a lot. 

The Hawks will obviously offer Young the max when he’s eligible next summer. Would they do it now for Collins when they haven’t had team success and don’t truly know who is going to be a part of this team long term? I’m not sure. If Collins and his representation are dead set on getting a max deal, there are more incentives for the Hawks to wait until next summer to give him that amount of money.

Interesting stuff.

[AHF]

Among other areas of his game, I put LP's decision not to run action for Collins firmly in the "that speaks badly of him" column.  He would do well to figure out how to do that before the start of next season.

[Buzzard]

On 4/13/2020 at 12:56 PM, JayBirdHawk said:

LP said as much last year.

Sad really.

Smitty knows the game and he is probably flabbergasted that no plays are called for the 2nd best player on the team. It is very sad on LPs part. Its also pretty amazing and speaks to Collins BBIQ that he knows how to play. He sees the gaps and spots; then gets to them without LP calling plays for him or in my opinion coaching him.

[High5]

John has become the most efficient 20+ PPG scorer in the league under LP. Doesn't mean he can't do more, but I think they're close to the sweet spot with his game. At some point you will get diminishing returns trying to expand his game.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, High5 said:

John has become the most efficient 20+ PPG scorer in the league under LP. Doesn't mean he can't do more, but I think they're close to the sweet spot with his game. At some point you will get diminishing returns trying to expand his game.

When you are near the league lead in scoring efficiency, you can still add value at a lower ts% on that incremental shots.  Like if they are at 55% that is still more efficient than any of our wings.

[Buzzard]

1 minute ago, High5 said:

John has become the most efficient 20+ PPG scorer in the league under LP. Doesn't mean he can't do more, but I think they're close to the sweet spot with his game. At some point you will get diminishing returns trying to expand his game.

February may be his sweet spot: 25.6 and 10.4.

But I would not sell him short of that. A few plays called for him here and there; 28 and 10 may be possible. If he waits until next season to sign his contract, he will probably be the the most sought after young RFA.

I would rank him ahead of Tatum myself; but I don't see how they cannot be 1 and 2 in anyone's book.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[JTB]

I will be honest. Collins being this efficient and not having plays ran for him has to be changed going into next season. A decision can’t be made to extend Collins or not without exploring his full potential offensively! That would be very dumb of Schlenk and staff.
Collins is too efficient to continue to let him run free and not try to create something for him.

even if his defense doesn’t get better (and I’m just speaking hypothetically on a what if type of thing)...we still need to know if he’s a capable 28-30 point scorer going forward. Wether you keep him, trade him or whatever...we need to know the full potential of Collins this season offensively right now! This season! and it’s crazy we don’t know the answer to his full potential offensively all because plays aren’t ran for him ...Schlenk got get on LP about that ...can’t have this unanswered by next off season!

 

i can make a case that if Collins can be 25 ppg, 28 ppg, or 30 ppg scorer and still avg 10 or more boards he may get the max from Schlenk despite his defense no matter if it improves or not . You can’t give away OR allow to walk away any efficient scorers that can avg close to 30 or at 30 ppg ...Defense or not you just can’t.

If Collins and Trae can give us 55 - 60 or more pts together on avg...you can bet your ass Schlenk will be forced to find defense in between them.

[JayBirdHawk]

35 minutes ago, JTB said:

I will be honest. Collins being this efficient and not having plays ran for him has to be changed going into next season. A decision can’t be made to extend Collins or not without exploring his full potential offensively! That would be very dumb of Schlenk and staff.
Collins is too efficient to continue to let him run free and not try to create something for him.

even if his defense doesn’t get better (and I’m just speaking hypothetically on a what if type of thing)...we still need to know if he’s a capable 28-30 point scorer going forward. Wether you keep him, trade him or whatever...we need to know the full potential of Collins this season offensively right now! This season! and it’s crazy we don’t know the answer to his full potential offensively all because plays aren’t ran for him ...Schlenk got get on LP about that ...can’t have this unanswered by next off season!

 

i can make a case that if Collins can be 25 ppg, 28 ppg, or 30 ppg scorer and still avg 10 or more boards he may get the max from Schlenk despite his defense no matter if it improves or not . You can’t give away OR allow to walk away any efficient scorers that can avg close to 30 or at 30 ppg ...Defense or not you just can’t.

If Collins and Trae can give us 55 - 60 or more pts together on avg...you can bet your ass Schlenk will be forced to find defense in between them.

The only part I agree with you on is LP running plays for Collins.

However, I disagree regarding most of the rest.  He's already a 20/10 guy (also came close in year 2). I understand the concerns regarding signing him to a MAX deal, but it seems you are advocating not giving him an extension at all until he can average 28-30 points. It's unfair and unrealistic. Harden is the only player averaging 30+ ppg. MVP Giannis is averaging 29 points a game as THE guy.

Giannis was averaging 22ppg when he signed his rookie extension. Jaylen Brown signed an extention averaging 14ppg. Sabonis got an extention averaging 14/9. Brandom Ingram is about to sign a max extension by NOP averaging 24ppg. Pascal signed a max extension coming off averaging 16ppg/7rebs.

Why is the bar set so exceptionally high for JC? 

[JTB]

45 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

The only part I agree with you on is LP running plays for Collins.

However, I disagree regarding most of the rest.  He's already a 20/10 guy (also came close in year 2). I understand the concerns regarding signing him to a MAX deal, but it seems you are advocating not giving him an extension at all until he can average 28-30 points. It's unfair and unrealistic. Harden is the only player averaging 30+ ppg. MVP Giannis is averaging 29 points a game as THE guy.

Giannis was averaging 22ppg when he signed his rookie extension. Jaylen Brown signed an extention averaging 14ppg. Sabonis got an extention averaging 14/9. Brandom Ingram is about to sign a max extension by NOP averaging 24ppg. Pascal signed a max extension coming off averaging 16ppg/7rebs.

Why is the bar set so exceptionally high for JC? 

I can see how you got that out of what I said but that’s not what I meant . I’m saying if there’s any uncertainty from Schlenk and staff in regards to extending Collins (which I personally think there may be)...then you (Schlenk, LP, everyone) need to prioritize getting the most out of JC possible and that includes LP involving JC even more offensively.

i don’t believe JC will be extended this season simply based on the fact that it’s smarter to wait next off season but I also believe there’s some uncertainty in extending or maxing his contract, I really do! Not uncertainty from fans but from those who really have a say so in doing that.

I believe Schlenk is trying to figure out how good (he’s already good)...ok let’s say how much better this guy really can get and can they win with him before giving him a max deal. I agree it isn’t fair and Collins deserves to be paid and he will be no matter if it’s from us or another team but I’m going by my opinion of how I think Schlenk thinks...I very well could be very wrong about all of this and the plan may be to extend Collins regardless of improvement or not as long as he’s the same player HOWEVER based on Kirschner and “Supes guy” reports/notes whatever you want to call it, they are the closes most reliable sources we have in house and some of what they said about Collins makes me believe this stay isn’t all in on Collins like hawk fans would want them to be.

All I’m saying that IF anything is true about that and how I am guessing “the mind of Schlenk and staff is thinking” then It’s important that Collins offense is prioritize and maximized this next season as it could change whatever negative or let’s just say uneasy thought process this staff may have in extending or giving the max to Collins.

 

ALSO...if there is some uncertainty and you’re the staff and you see the numbers this kid is putting up without plays being ran for him as the SURE go to second scoring star ...it wouldn’t be wise to let him walk without exploring the possibility that he may be another damn near 30pt scorer with Trae. Why settle for a good 20/10 and the kid can avg 30/10!!!

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I can see how you got that out of what I said but that’s not what I meant . I’m saying if there’s any uncertainty from Schlenk and staff in regards to extending Collins (which I personally think there may be)...then you (Schlenk, LP, everyone) need to prioritize getting the most out of JC possible and that includes LP involving JC even more offensively.

i don’t believe JC will be extended this season simply based on the fact that it’s smarter to wait next off season but I also believe there’s some uncertainty in extending or maxing his contract, I really do! Not uncertainty from fans but from those who really have a say so in doing that.

I believe Schlenk is trying to figure out how good (he’s already good)...ok let’s say how much better this guy really can get and can they win with him before giving him a max deal. I agree it isn’t fair and Collins deserves to be paid and he will be no matter if it’s from us or another team but I’m going by my opinion of how I think Schlenk thinks...I very well could be very wrong about all of this and the plan may be to extend Collins regardless of improvement or not as long as he’s the same player HOWEVER based on Kirschner and “Supes guy” reports/notes whatever you want to call it, they are the closes most reliable sources we have in house and some of what they said about Collins makes me believe this stay isn’t all in on Collins like hawk fans would want them to be.

All I’m saying that IF anything is true about that and how I am guessing “the mind of Schlenk and staff is thinking” then It’s important that Collins offense is prioritize and maximized this next season as it could change whatever negative or let’s just say uneasy thought process this staff may have in extending or giving the max to Collins.

 

ALSO...if there is some uncertainty and you’re the staff and you see the numbers this kid is putting up without plays being ran for him as the SURE go to second scoring star ...it wouldn’t be wise to let him walk without exploring the possibility that he may be another damn near 30pt scorer with Trae. Why settle for a good 20/10 and the kid can avg 30/10!!!

You are over thinking it.  When players are extended early it's 'on potential' improvement.

It's either they want to extend him this season if they can secure a reasonable deal or they don't because 1. he wants a max contract and 2. they prefer the RFA market to set his value next season, 3. keep his low caphold to maximize FA dollars next offseason 4.he isn't a part of the core and they'll look to move him ala Taurean Prince.

Yes, I would love to see JC put up 30/10 but I see it as unrealistic - Giannis is averaging 29/13, 28/11 is the high mark for Anthony Davis - these are the Cornerstones of their teams. JC isn't. 

Now, I keep saying I would love to see more plays run for Collins.  He's averaging 15 shots attempts (with 3 Orebs) per game.

Question  - what kind of plays do you want to see LP institute for him? More post ups - sure, but when that happens it's not like he'll just add 10 more automatic points on top of what he has - he won't be in as many PnR's if he's getting more post up touches, if he becomes exceptional in the post then teams will double, limiting a shot attempt, then he'd have to become an adequate passer from the post.

What other plays should LP run for Collins to get him to average 30 points?

[JTB]

36 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

You are over thinking it.  When players are extended early it's 'on potential' improvement.

It's either they want to extend him this season if they can secure a reasonable deal or they don't because 1. he wants a max contract and 2. they prefer the RFA market to set his value next season, 3. keep his low caphold to maximize FA dollars next offseason 4.he isn't a part of the core and they'll look to move him ala Taurean Prince.

Yes, I would love to see JC put up 30/10 but I see it as unrealistic - Giannis is averaging 29/13, 28/11 is the high mark for Anthony Davis - these are the Cornerstones of their teams. JC isn't. 

Now, I keep saying I would love to see more plays run for Collins.  He's averaging 15 shots attempts (with 3 Orebs) per game.

Question  - what kind of plays do you want to see LP institute for him? More post ups - sure, but when that happens it's not like he'll just add 10 more automatic points on top of what he has - he won't be in as many PnR's if he's getting more post up touches, if he becomes exceptional in the post then teams will double, limiting a shot attempt, then he'd have to become an adequate passer from the post.

What other plays should LP run for Collins to get him to average 30 points?

I don’t think I’m overthinking it ...I think I’m on point but hey I’m going by how I interpret the reports.

as far as what else can LP run for Collins ...well first off LP probably can’t do much more for Collins given his avg at best background in offense and he’s just not that kind of mastermind on that end of the floor nor is he really advanced offensively. Not to say I don’t like the offense LP runs when the right players are on the team or believe LP can’t improve but I don’t have a great feeling he can utilize or draw up plays for JC outside of Collins being used as a screener on every play wether it’s on ball or off ball.

That said I think you’re limiting what Collins can become. Giannis grew to a 30pt scorer in year 4 or 5 and JC has already started off way better than him in his career. One way that Collins can be used offensively is as a off ball mover and not be the one always setting the screens...similar to what Memphis does with JJJ of course not off ball mover like a curry/korver type.

but If you watch the Grizzlies they are always setting screens for JJJ to come off them and take that 3. I don’t see why that type of play can’t be used for Collins on the regular. Why can’t hunter, reddish, huerter, even trae set some off ball screens for Collins to free him up from time to time like he’s always doing for his teammates???

lets go to post up touches, Collins finish well around rim obviously and he’s good at finishing in the post on mismatches ...how about we run more plays to purposely force mismatches in or near the post for Collins.

lets not sleep on his High efficiency. If you can be this efficient you need more plays ran for you and more attempts to shoot it. We don’t have to use Collins solely as a on ball and off ball screener only and he doesn’t necessarily have to become some all world dribbler to avg more points either. If there’s a good scheme in place Collins to take full advantage of his skillset he probably could get it done.

[Peoriabird]

19 hours ago, JTB said:

even if his defense doesn’t get better (and I’m just speaking hypothetically on a what if type of thing)...we still need to know if he’s a capable 28-30 point scorer going forward. Wether you keep him, trade him or whatever...we need to know the full potential of Collins this season offensively right now! This season! and it’s crazy we don’t know the answer to his full potential offensively all because plays aren’t ran for him ...Schlenk got get on LP about that ...can’t have this unanswered by next off season!

 

 

Every other Franchise in the NBA and their fans would not think twice about signing a 20/10 guy with John's Character to a max 2nd deal.  the way I'm reading this is that John has to average 28-30 points per game and be a candidate for defensive player of the year to prove he is as good as players like Brandon Ingram.  John is our 2nd best and some would argue our best player on the team.  There should be no question in anybody's mind that he deserves to be paid like any other 23 year old Star.

[JTB]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

Every other Franchise in the NBA and their fans would not think twice about signing a 20/10 guy with John Character to a max 2nd deal.  the way I'm reading this is that John has to average 28-30 points per game and be a candidate for defensive player of the year to prove he is as good as players like Brandon Ingram.  John is our 2nd best and some would argue our best player on the team.  There should be no question in anybody's mind that he deserves to be paid like any other 23 year old Star.

I’m not saying that though. Let’s be clear I’m not saying this ! I think Collins should be resigned....All I’m saying is that there seems to be some uncertainty about extending Collins when it comes to Schlenk and staff in my opinion and again that’s just my opinion doesn’t mean it’s true .

if there is some uncertainty in if he deserves the max here in Atlanta or not to Schlenk and staff then they really need to make sure they know JCs full potential before making some crazy decision to move on...Kirschner comment below was a good observation that Collins offense game could easily be expanded ....

 

At a minimum, watching Collins slip and cut when he’s moving off the ball should be rewarded more often than it is because he’s open a lot.

[Peoriabird]

11 minutes ago, JTB said:

I’m not saying that though. Let’s be clear I’m not saying this ! I think Collins should be resigned....All I’m saying is that there seems to be some uncertainty about extending Collins when it comes to Schlenk and staff in my opinion and again that’s just my opinion doesn’t mean it’s true .

if there is some uncertainty in if he deserves the max here in Atlanta or not to Schlenk and staff then they really need to make sure they know JCs full potential before making some crazy decision to move on...Kirschner comment below was a good observation that Collins offense game could easily be expanded ....

 

At a minimum, watching Collins slip and cut when he’s moving off the ball should be rewarded more often than it is because he’s open a lot.

And my point and I think @JayBirdHawk's point is that he has already earned his deal.  Its just a matter of timing when to give him his deal.

[JayBirdHawk]

14 hours ago, JTB said:

I don’t think I’m overthinking it ...I think I’m on point but hey I’m going by how I interpret the reports.

as far as what else can LP run for Collins ...well first off LP probably can’t do much more for Collins given his avg at best background in offense and he’s just not that kind of mastermind on that end of the floor nor is he really advanced offensively. Not to say I don’t like the offense LP runs when the right players are on the team or believe LP can’t improve but I don’t have a great feeling he can utilize or draw up plays for JC outside of Collins being used as a screener on every play wether it’s on ball or off ball.

That said I think you’re limiting what Collins can become. Giannis grew to a 30pt scorer in year 4 or 5 and JC has already started off way better than him in his career. One way that Collins can be used offensively is as a off ball mover and not be the one always setting the screens...similar to what Memphis does with JJJ of course not off ball mover like a curry/korver type.

but If you watch the Grizzlies they are always setting screens for JJJ to come off them and take that 3. I don’t see why that type of play can’t be used for Collins on the regular. Why can’t hunter, reddish, huerter, even trae set some off ball screens for Collins to free him up from time to time like he’s always doing for his teammates???

lets go to post up touches, Collins finish well around rim obviously and he’s good at finishing in the post on mismatches ...how about we run more plays to purposely force mismatches in or near the post for Collins.

lets not sleep on his High efficiency. If you can be this efficient you need more plays ran for you and more attempts to shoot it. We don’t have to use Collins solely as a on ball and off ball screener only and he doesn’t necessarily have to become some all world dribbler to avg more points either. If there’s a good scheme in place Collins to take full advantage of his skillset he probably could get it done.

So why don't you want to pay JC in year 3 if he's already started off better than Giannis in year 4 and 5? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one. And again, the team is built around Giannis, he's a ball handler to make a play for himself or a teammate - that's not JC's game (yet?). Game on the line, the ball goes to Giannis, game on the line for the Hawks, ball goes to Trae.

JJJ came out of college as a 3 point shooter, JC did not, he has just started ADDING the 3 in catch and shoot in stand still situations. You assume his 3pt % will remain the same coming off a screen and shooting. 

Again, the more you run different plays for JC the less he'll be in his bread n butter PnR which accounts for a lot of his efficiency. And again I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see more PLAYS run for him particularly in mismatches in the post. I'm in agreement of more scoring opportunities as well.

It's a pipe dream in wanting both Trae and John to average 30. It'll be more like these scores, which I'd be ok with. Love the Trae assist numbers.