Collins has to PROVE more! Sorry but the clock starts now...

[JayBirdHawk]

25 minutes ago, JTB said:

 

At a minimum, watching Collins slip and cut when he’s moving off the ball should be rewarded more often than it is because he’s open a lot.

Sometimes he's open and Trae hits him, sometimes Trae misses him,  sometimes teams actually guard against this play.

[JTB]

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

So why don't you want to pay JC in year 3 if he's already started off better than Giannis in year 4 and 5? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth on this one.
 

“You”???...I never said I didn’t want JC resigned! as a fan I do want JC to remain in Atlanta. THE ONLY thing I’ve done is question wether or not if Schlenk truly wants JC back in Atlanta long term. Why can’t I question that???

Next let’s clarify “better” than Giannis. JC is only better than Giannis at having a better start at scoring in the nba compared to Giannis years 2 and 3...Giannis still had a better overall game than Collins even with it still being in the works. 

 

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

And again, the team is built around Giannis, he's a ball handler to make a play for himself or a teammate - that's not JC's game (yet?). Game on the line, the ball goes to Giannis, game on the line for the Hawks, ball goes to Trae.

Giannis is what I would call a ball controller with unique long strides. I wouldn’t classify him as a ball handler like a trae, kyrie, curry, etc but I’m just getting too technical now ....moving on...I’m aware JC doesn’t have this in his game yet and quite frankly it shouldn’t matter if he adds it or not. The hardest thing to find in this era is a off ball scoring machine that can complement the many on ball scorers that’s easy to find in this league. Furthermore I do not believe JC has to have “ball handles” in order to score more points.
 

Game on the line the ball goes to Giannis huh?....yeah ....luckily for Giannis sake his bucks have been extremely  good and since he’s made a big name for himself he hasn’t been in too many if any real game on the line situations. I recall a tip layup buzzer beater however but the play wasn’t ran for him if I recall it right. Also that’s the knock on Giannis is his half court game once the opponent can match his size and length.....he got stripped a ton in the ECF last year when it mattered which played into him publicly saying he had to get a jumper. Anyways game on the line and you need a shot, Middleton in my opinion would be the guy you draw a play up for even though it’s Giannis team....I can’t read minds but I would get Bud feels the same way.

 

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

JJJ came out of college as a 3 point shooter, JC did not, he has just started ADDING the 3 in catch and shoot in stand still situations. You assume his 3pt % will remain the same coming off a screen and shooting. 
 

so what! We are talking about today and where he is as a player ...not 3 years ago. I never assumed his 3pt % would stay the same if he started adding more or doing different plays to get himself open for 3s etc...All I’m looking at is the potential I see in JC because I believe Collins off ball ability is a true elite skill he has therefore to me it’s not unreasonable to start to add plays like what JJJ does coming off screens to take 3s in Collins game...there’s no harm in that and maybe his 3pt percentage takes a small dip ok no biggie. As long as Collins is league avg on 3s he will keep the floor spaced but Collins has a weird trait of being oddly very  efficient so again I’m taking my chances and adding more to his already elite off ball skill set.

 

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Again, the more you run different plays for JC the less he'll be in his bread n butter PnR which accounts for a lot of his efficiency.
 

I don’t need to explain but you already know Capela has already took some of these “bread n butter” plays away. Soooo yeah...since he’s more offensively skilled than capela he will need to add more to his game anyways and since you like to quote LP so much don’t you recall pierce saying teams really started to pick that play up and play JC differently???...that will always be a play for him and Trae but it’s time to use to build on more things. We’ll leave that ol Skool bread n butter to capela as that’s he’s most effective way to be involved offensively in terms of points.

 

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

And again I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see more PLAYS run for him particularly in mismatches in the post. I'm in agreement of more scoring opportunities as well.

glad you agree

 

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It's a pipe dream in wanting both Trae and John to average 30. It'll be more like these scores, which I'd be ok with. Love the Trae assist numbers.

smh...there’s nothing wrong in exploring deeply in your talents. I was being optimistic because Collins in my opinion is such a good off ball scorer in a variety of ways other then just rolling to the basket perhaps if he’s looked for more often by ALL his teammates and not just trae (though trae handles the ball the most) his point avg very well could go up to 25 or 27 or 30 points per game. Also Trae can  get his points pretty easily and the 3 ball plus free throws really helps him out to avg high amount or points.
 

Sure it’s a pipe dream but it’s not impossible either. Lebron and AD both avg 25...30 and 30 isn’t far off for them and I’m not calling Trae, LBJ or Collins, AD...I repeat I’m not calling Trae, LBJ or Collins, AD ...BUT there’s some similarities in the STATS between these two tandems. 30/30 would be hard while 25/25 is extremely doable for trae and Collins.

12 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

 

This works too as long as we’re winning

[Buzzard]

I just noticed this stat at Basketball Reference. Scroll down to play by play. While it may be true Collins started at PF for most of the games;  this also shows he played 53% of the time at PF and 47% of the time at Center.

Hunter had a somewhat puzzling split as well. 18% at SG, 20% at PF, and only 62% at SF.

I am hoping next season its more like 80% or more for both Hunter and Collins at their natural positions.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collijo01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/huntede01.html

[JayBirdHawk]

33 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

I just noticed this stat at Basketball Reference. Scroll down to play by play. While it may be true Collins started at PF for most of the games;  this also shows he played 53% of the time at PF and 47% of the time at Center.

Hunter had a somewhat puzzling split as well. 18% at SG, 20% at PF, and only 62% at SF.

I am hoping next season its more like 80% or more for both Hunter and Collins at their natural positions.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collijo01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/huntede01.html

No surprise with Len and Jones as Centers.

We did run the Core 5 lineup a ton when JC returned and by the numbers it was the most successful lineup (saw that somewhere).

Too many players in and out the lineup for varying reasons.

I, like you, hope for the 80% mark next season.

 

 

[Buzzard]

18 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

No surprise with Len and Jones as Centers.

We did run the Core 5 lineup a ton when JC returned and by the numbers it was the most successful lineup (saw that somewhere).

Too many players in and out the lineup for varying reasons.

I, like you, hope for the 80% mark next season.

 

 

Young teams need consistency and being played out of position does not lend to that in my opinion. No matter what you want to say about successful lineups, we are headed to a 3rd straight really bad season. I would not use any part of this season for a high water mark as a team. Just to many horrible losses even late in the season when we had Collins back.

I will give my individual props to Collins for blowing up in February and Trae for becoming a legitimate rising superstar. I also like the potential Hunter and Reddish showed us in good spurts. I think Huerter did well considering the injuries and I will never complain about a player hitting almost .390 from three.

I hope for much better things as a team in the near future.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Buzzard

[Spud2nique]

No more to prove after these 200 dunks  

 

 

[Buzzard]

On 4/27/2020 at 11:24 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

No surprise with Len and Jones as Centers.

We did run the Core 5 lineup a ton when JC returned and by the numbers it was the most successful lineup (saw that somewhere).

Too many players in and out the lineup for varying reasons.

I, like you, hope for the 80% mark next season.

 

 

I get the stat @JayBirdHawk but with our team its almost useless. I posted this on the other board so here goes:

The thing to note here is the Hawks most used lineup you are showing ranks 33rd in minutes played among all teams. That is 33rd among 30 teams. That is not last place, they managed somehow to go beyond 30th to 33rd. You have to go to the 4th page to find another most used lineup per minutes for the Hawks. If you sort on games played by that lineup its worse and they rank 49th. It is a very small sample size when compared to the rest of the league. 23 Games, 205 Minutes.

This is due in part to injuries, trades, and Collins suspension. But a lot of it is the way LP coached this team. I would not call him a rock of stability with his rotations. Closer to the opposite and I would give him the nickname Mr. Inconsistency. At the end of the day, I was talking about Hunter. The most used lineup for the season does not change the fact that most used recent lineup at the end of the season was:

Dedmon, Collins, Hunter, Huerter, and Trae. It was for 10 games of the so far final 15 game in which Hunter picked up his rebounding numbers by a large margin.

Example: Hunter's best rebounding month before Dedmon came to the team was November at 4.1. In February with Dedmon, he hit 6.8 and in March 7.6. Of note: Dedmon started 4 of the 5 games in March, and Bruno started the other alongside Collins and Hunter.

https://stats.nba.com/lineups/advanced/

https://www.lineups.com/nba/lineups/atlanta-hawks

Edited April 29, 2020 by Buzzard

[Spud2nique]

BR redrafted 2017 and JC went 8th. I would say he’s probably top 6, he’s better than Isaac and OG, maybe even Ball. JC is tied for 4th with Fox in Sacramento to me.

 

8. New York Knicks: John Collins

8 OF 13

 

Todd Kirkland/Getty Images

Third in scoring average, first in rebounds and fifth in box plus-minus among players selected in 2017, John Collins is the type of stat-stuffing, highlight-heavy talent the New York Knicks always seem to want.

The 6'9" forward (whose ideal position is probably center) is an efficient scorer who ranks in the 89th percentile among bigs in points per shot attempt this season. He's been above the 84th percentile all three years of his career.

Collins has tremendous bounce, which makes him a quick-strike threat as a lob-catcher and offensive rebounder. His three-point accuracy and attempt rate have climbed every year, peaking in 2019-20 with a 40.1 percent hit rate on 3.6 deep tries per game. He's one of just seven bigs to shoot at least 40.0 percent on over 3.0 attempts per game this year, and he has more total blocks and rebounds than anyone in the group despite playing only 41 games.

Career averages of 16.2 points and 8.8 rebounds on 63.4 percent true shooting leap off the page, but we can't ignore Collins' relative defensive frailty. He's not quite big enough to be a true deterrent at the rim, and he hasn't yet shown a willingness to get down in a stance and stay in front of matchups on the perimeter. His focus seems to come and go on that end as well, which compounds the issue.

That's fine. The Knicks can't expect a perfect prospect at No. 8. Collins might wind up being a pretty good modern facsimile of Amar'e Stoudemire, though, which New York should feel pretty comfortable about.

Actual Pick: Frank Ntilikina

Collins' Actual Draft Slot: No. 19, Atlanta Hawks

[JayBirdHawk]

11 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

BR redrafted 2017 and JC went 8th. I would say he’s probably top 6, he’s better than Isaac and OG, maybe even Ball. JC is tied for 4th with Fox in Sacramento to me.

 

8. New York Knicks: John Collins

Hawks

Definitely over OG and Ball. Isaac's defense is special, his offense lags.

[NBASupes]

On 4/26/2020 at 10:29 AM, JayBirdHawk said:

Sometimes he's open and Trae hits him, sometimes Trae misses him,  sometimes teams actually guard against this play.

JC is the best movement big since Karl Malone and actually better in terms of his movement IQ although Malone was much more effective as no one in Malone's era could defend the Stockton-Malone PnR and his movement.

JC is a freakish movement player. 

[NBASupes]

11 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

BR redrafted 2017 and JC went 8th. I would say he’s probably top 6, he’s better than Isaac and OG, maybe even Ball. JC is tied for 4th with Fox in Sacramento to me.

 

8. New York Knicks: John Collins

8 OF 13

 

Todd Kirkland/Getty Images

Third in scoring average, first in rebounds and fifth in box plus-minus among players selected in 2017, John Collins is the type of stat-stuffing, highlight-heavy talent the New York Knicks always seem to want.

The 6'9" forward (whose ideal position is probably center) is an efficient scorer who ranks in the 89th percentile among bigs in points per shot attempt this season. He's been above the 84th percentile all three years of his career.

Collins has tremendous bounce, which makes him a quick-strike threat as a lob-catcher and offensive rebounder. His three-point accuracy and attempt rate have climbed every year, peaking in 2019-20 with a 40.1 percent hit rate on 3.6 deep tries per game. He's one of just seven bigs to shoot at least 40.0 percent on over 3.0 attempts per game this year, and he has more total blocks and rebounds than anyone in the group despite playing only 41 games.

Career averages of 16.2 points and 8.8 rebounds on 63.4 percent true shooting leap off the page, but we can't ignore Collins' relative defensive frailty. He's not quite big enough to be a true deterrent at the rim, and he hasn't yet shown a willingness to get down in a stance and stay in front of matchups on the perimeter. His focus seems to come and go on that end as well, which compounds the issue.

That's fine. The Knicks can't expect a perfect prospect at No. 8. Collins might wind up being a pretty good modern facsimile of Amar'e Stoudemire, though, which New York should feel pretty comfortable about.

Actual Pick: Frank Ntilikina

Collins' Actual Draft Slot: No. 19, Atlanta Hawks

I agree with them. No way I take John ahead of O.G. or Issac. Especially Issac. His impact is just a lot more important 

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I agree with them. No way I take John ahead of O.G. or Issac. Especially Issac. His impact is just a lot more important 

Health and circumstance matter too.  If either of them guys were 2nd options on their teams (like Collins is here) ... yikes.

Don't yell at me, supers.  I like both them guys but they look like specialists at best right now.   Not load carriers.

[NBASupes]

57 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Health and circumstance matter too.  If either of them guys were 2nd options on their teams (like Collins is here) ... yikes.

Don't yell at me, supers.  I like both them guys but they look like specialists at best right now.   Not load carriers.

And John is? Both of those guys are impact players for their roles. I know we think highly of John as we should but if people think of him similar to Aaron Gordon overall impact wise at that stage, they wouldn't exactly be wrong. 

[macdaddy]

On 4/28/2020 at 7:35 PM, Spud2nique said:

No more to prove after these 200 dunks  

 

 

I got it on my first try.  Then i thought it was just a joke and couldn't do it again.  

[kg01]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

And John is? Both of those guys are impact players for their roles. I know we think highly of John as we should but if people think of him similar to Aaron Gordon overall impact wise at that stage, they wouldn't exactly be wrong. 

More so than either of those guys.

And don't dismiss what i'm saying as typical fan homerism or 'thinking highly of John'.  Collins has been asked to carry much more of a load than either of those guys.

It's not right to look at a lesser-role guy like Isaac or OG and grade them up, due to excelling in a lesser role.  But look at Collins' greater role, in which team success is more heavily weighted to his play, and grade him down because of the lack of team success.

If Anunoby was asked to be the 2nd or even 3rd in opponents' scouting reports, would his metrics still look as good?  If he were put on a lotto team, instead of a ready-made contender surrounded by vets who play the right way, would he excel in the role he was thrust into?

I have more confidence that Isaac would be able to handle a greater role but his injury concerns can't be ignored.

I hate when people just read a positive slant on a Hawk-related player/coach/whatever and just assume it's homer-talk.  Haven't we all been around too long for that?

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I agree with them. No way I take John ahead of O.G. or Issac. Especially Issac. His impact is just a lot more important 

Wow really? I like OG a lot but I’m glad we went with JC here. Same with Isaac, he just doesn’t seem to have the stamina and production of JC.

 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Wow really? I like OG a lot but I’m glad we went with JC here. Same with Isaac, he just doesn’t seem to have the stamina and production of JC.

 

Issac is better player and impact player to me. O.G. isn't better but he's in a far more valuable position and role for winning.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[macdaddy]

16 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

Quote

“I just felt like it was an all-around good year for myself,” Collins said. “It felt like I showed development in certain areas that a lot of people, I guess critics, were looking to see development from. I just felt like for everybody watching, my game is continuing to develop, continuing to grow. I just hope that’s what people see.” 

“But I want to be a Hawk, I want to stay with the Hawks.”

I guess he's not too upset about having no plays run for him.