All NBA Team.....

[Diesel]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

Hawks are worse and the Grizzlies are better because Trae is better than Ja.  Atlanta would have to be 6 games worse to fall to the 11 seed and I don't think that would happen.  Would Trae be enough to make up the 8 game gap between Memphis and Phoenix?  Probably not but it would be fascinating to see.

I guess if I had to guess, I'd say the Hawks would still be in the play-in (maybe with a .500 record as the 10 seed rather than being tied for 9/10) and Memphis would still be 2nd but would be sitting at something like 61-21.

I believe that trae would make up the difference.   Memphis is what 20-2 without Ja.  That means that they really don't need him AHF.. I'm sorry... they have beaten good teams without him.   They don't need him.   However, you replace his efforts with Trae... Trae gets a team whoose calling card is defense... Memphis may be 10 games better. 

 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

To be clear...I don't think team success SHOULD be a determining factor for an individual award, I'm just saying RE: Booker that it will be.  Booker has had a hell of a statistical season and has put up the best numbers on the best team.  So there are going to be media dudes that say he has to be on 1st team.  

My problem is more with just assuming Luka is better than Trae this year because the Mavs are the 4th seed while the Hawks are the 9th seed. 

Both All-Star selections and All-NBA selections have had a serious amount of "the team is better so the player is better" in their voting patterns over the years.  It is absolutely a real thing.  In the rare example of benefiting a Hawk, it is why Kyle Korver and Jeff Teague have All-Star selections on their resume.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

To be clear...I don't think team success SHOULD be a determining factor for an individual award, I'm just saying RE: Booker that it will be.  Booker has had a hell of a statistical season and has put up the best numbers on the best team.  So there are going to be media dudes that say he has to be on 1st team.  

My problem is more with just assuming Luka is better than Trae this year because the Mavs are the 4th seed while the Hawks are the 9th seed. 

You see...

Trae is being penalized because of the COVID Games. 

This is why Team success shouldn't matter. 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

I believe that trae would make up the difference.   Memphis is what 20-2 without Ja.  That means that they really don't need him AHF.. I'm sorry... they have beaten good teams without him.   They don't need him.   However, you replace his efforts with Trae... Trae gets a team whoose calling card is defense... Memphis may be 10 games better. 

 

That is a fine discussion to have.  I personally don't think that Memphis is actually a team that wins 91% of their games without Ja but if you think that is a real thing and not just the product of SSS statistics then I can totally see why you might see Memphis winning 66, 70 or even 75 games with Trae.

[kg01]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I don’t buy into the narrative that Memphis is better without ja.  So I’m not opposed to him being in the mix for All-NBA.  But Trae is clearly better and had the better season and should be recognized accordingly.

The only intelligent response I have to this is ...

But you're missing the crux of the argument.  How can someone miss 1/4 of the season and be all-NBA anything?

Look at Kyrie's finish to the season once he had to play every night instead of once every 3rd or 4th game.  His production took a precipitous drop because, newsflash, if you get to play fewer games than the comp you're fresher.

It's the whole reason for load management.  The other side of that though is, if you load manage (or miss too many games, in general), you shouldn't be eligible for awards.  They put in minimums for winning scoring titles and whatnot.  There should be minimum games played, either explicitly or inherently(?), for all-NBA.

Oh and MEM was better without him.  Numbers don't lie and their w/l record was what it was.  Can't have it both ways.  Can't be tellin' me how trash Trae is on D because o' tha numbers but then ignore MEM's w/l record just because tha numbers don't match what you want the opinion to be.

The preceding post was about 43% facetious.

[AHF]

Just now, kg01 said:

The only intelligent response I have to this is ...

But you're missing the crux of the argument.  How can someone miss 1/4 of the season and be all-NBA anything?

Look at Kyrie's finish to the season once he had to play every night instead of once every 3rd or 4th game.  His production took a precipitous drop because, newsflash, if you get to play fewer games than the comp you're fresher.

It's the whole reason for load management.  The other side of that though is, if you load manage (or miss too many games, in general), you shouldn't be eligible for awards.  They put in minimums for winning scoring titles and whatnot.  There should be minimum games played, either explicitly or inherently(?), for all-NBA.

Oh and MEM was better without him.  Numbers don't lie and their w/l record was what it was.  Can't have it both ways.  Can't be tellin' me how trash Trae is on D because o' tha numbers but then ignore MEM's w/l record just because tha numbers don't match what you want the opinion to be.

The preceding post was about 43% facetious.

I think the gap in record between Memphis with and without Ja is more about random statistical variance over that 22 game sample.  

I also don't think Trae is the WOAT candidate on defense that some try to make him out to be.  We wouldn't see multiple "Mitten" references every game if he wasn't stepping up and making some plays on that side of the floor.  I do think he carries the heaviest burden on offense of any player in the league and that should be factored into the discussion of his defense as well.  So I kind of reject both of those narratives.

With Ja missing 1/4 of the season, I won't argue that isn't a fully legit reason to eliminate someone from or discount their impact in discussion for All-NBA.  I would just look to apply that to everyone.  Ja played 57 games.  Curry played 64.  Luka played 65.  Giannis played 67.  Embiid played 68.   All of them should be "punished" in the voting for having missed significant chunks of the season.  Maybe using stats that account for this (like total win shares or RAPTOR WAR) instead of rate based stats (like PER, BPM, Overall RAPTOR, etc.) would properly balance for this.  (Games played is why Jimmy Butler and Mikal Bridges have much more similar WS and RAPTOR WAR numbers than their rate based numbers which have a big gap in Jimmy's favor.)

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think the gap in record between Memphis with and without Ja is more about random statistical variance over that 22 game sample.  

Hoooow convenient....

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Hoooow convenient....

Some anonymous poster on this site tried to make the case that Trae isn't a real star and has no real impact on the team because the Hawks had a similar record at that point in the season with and without him.  I said that was a BS argument then as well (maybe more politely and with more reasoning).  Hawks finished .500 without Trae this year but I don't care if they won 67% of their games without him, we are a much worse team without Trae than with him.  I think the same logic applies to Morant (even though Trae > Ja).

[REHawksFan]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Some anonymous poster on this site tried to make the case that Trae isn't a real star and has no real impact on the team because the Hawks had a similar record at that point in the season with and without him.  I said that was a BS argument then as well (maybe more politely and with more reasoning).  Hawks finished .500 without Trae this year but I don't care if they won 67% of their games without him, we are a much worse team without Trae than with him.  I think the same logic applies to Morant (even though Trae > Ja).

I think I would agree with you more if it was a smaller sample size for games he missed.  But he missed 25 games.  That's 30% of the season.  And Memphis was 20-5 in the games he missed.  That's a 66-win team over a whole season.  They were 36-21 in the games he played.  That's a 52-win team.  Big difference in what is not a very small sample size.  

There's certainly some nuance here and Memphis is going to be better off WITH Ja than WITHOUT him, but I guess I'm just not sure how much he impacted winning for them this year.  

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

Some anonymous poster on this site tried to make the case that Trae isn't a real star and has no real impact on the team because the Hawks had a similar record at that point in the season with and without him.  I said that was a BS argument then as well (maybe more politely and with more reasoning).  Hawks finished .500 without Trae this year but I don't care if they won 67% of their games without him, we are a much worse team without Trae than with him.  I think the same logic applies to Morant (even though Trae > Ja).

I think, to take off my facetious hat for a moment, their w/l record without Ja doesn't indicate they're better without him.  However, it does present evidence that their w/l record with him shouldn't be a driving force in his candidacy.

Others have pointed out that Trae, for example, has superior numbers.  So for folks to throw out 'well they're #2 in the West' as a tie-breaker of sorts .. eh, I can't get with that.  That's a solid team whether he plays or not.

[thecampster]

14 hours ago, Diesel said:

I give Luka the slight nod because of rebounds.   In reality, I don't consider Luka a PG but since the category is Gaurd, I won't fuss about it. 

 

I want my point guard to get rebounds that come to him. I don't want him hunting rebounds. Especially when playing point guard, the player needs to be in position for an outlet to start the transition set. If Luka is down among the giants, it looks good on paper but most of those boards are boards your bigs would have gotten. However, your primary ball handler is now 90 feet from the basket with the opposing team getting into position.

Luka is the top rebounder on the Mavericks. 2nd was Porzingis who is no longer on the team. 3rd is Max Kleber at 5.9 per game.  Luka's rebounding stats are either A) necessary because Dallas is not a good rebounding squad without him or B) just rebounds he's taking from his teammates. If you are back hunting rebounds, it means you aren't starting transition. This could easily explain Dallas' lack of pace and lack of pressure on the opposing team to play defense. I don't see his rebounding stats as a positive. They could be but I don't see it that way. There is a reason they score 5.9 points per game less than the Hawks.

[AHF]

16 hours ago, kg01 said:

I think, to take off my facetious hat for a moment, their w/l record without Ja doesn't indicate they're better without him.  However, it does present evidence that their w/l record with him shouldn't be a driving force in his candidacy.

Others have pointed out that Trae, for example, has superior numbers.  So for folks to throw out 'well they're #2 in the West' as a tie-breaker of sorts .. eh, I can't get with that.  That's a solid team whether he plays or not.

I'm in lock step with this.  I think you say better here what I was trying to say earlier:

17 hours ago, AHF said:

My takeaway is that Memphis is a good (not great) team even without Ja.  I don't think they are as good as their record suggests without him, and I think they can only be great with Ja.  But it is very clear that Memphis is not a winning team just because of Ja or anything.  So it does speak to how essential he is to their floor.

I fully agree with you on him not deserving it above Trae.  To that end, I think the team's record without Ja should eliminate the "give it to the guy on the better team" approach for voters.  But the core of why Ja doesn't deserve it above Trae is because Trae has been significantly better than Ja this season.  That is what ends the discussion for me.  Trae has been clearly better so he needs to be the one getting votes ahead of Ja outside the state of Tennessee and if that happens then it doesn't offend me if Ja is All-NBA because they think he has been better than other guards.

 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I'm in lock step with this.  I think you say better here what I was trying to say earlier:

Hey, when I decide to be sorta serious, I'm pretty mean with my words.

Wait .. that didn't come out right ... or did it? 

[Atlantaholic]

19 hours ago, AHF said:

I don’t buy into the narrative that Memphis is better without ja.  So I’m not opposed to him being in the mix for All-NBA.  But Trae is clearly better and had the better season and should be recognized accordingly.

I'll say if you take everything into consideration, every advanced stat, raw numbers, etc. Then it's close...ish. But Trae is clearly better overall this year.

[marco102]

19 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Trae finished extremely strong. Was 55 wins worth on offense and while his defense was still WOAT level overall (-20). He had finished the last couple of months with a +35 wins which is higher than his 25-30 wins. JC was on a +35 pace till the injury and he regressed to 30 wins. Trae was officially the best player for the first time ever as a RS player for the Hawks in terms of impact. 

The other big wins was Bogi finished +25 and Gallo did as well. OO flashed +25 potential as a sophomore. 

Kevin and Hunter struggled this year. Neither was much more than rotational, especially Hunter. 

Capela dropped from 45 wins to 30 wins. This was unrealistic as teams downloaded the Hawks this year. Its completely unrealistic to expect 25 wins from Capela on offense anyway. Spamming the 1/5 PnR when Nate took over for LP was always fool's gold to the degree we had success from it. 

Trae deserves all NBA to me. 35 wins isn't nothing special but when you are worth 55 wins on offense, f*** outta here. That's a all NBA superstar. 

What metric are you using to say Trae is a 35 win player?  You confuse me every time you use this stat.  The Hawks won 40 games this season when Trae played, so what do you mean by 35 win player?  That's a losing player. 

Are you saying Trae adds 35 wins to a team? 

[NBASupes]

23 minutes ago, marco102 said:

What metric are you using to say Trae is a 35 win player?  You confuse me every time you use this stat.  The Hawks won 40 games this season when Trae played, so what do you mean by 35 win player?  That's a losing player. 

Are you saying Trae adds 35 wins to a team? 

It's my personal metrics based on all of the basic stats, advanced stats, nba.com stats, and my eye test. 

If you want to call it something, call it the SUPES. 

35 wins is clearly not a losing player. We are talking one individual here. Now the best guys like Jokic are worth 50-55 wins and Giannis is worth 45-50 wins. This year, Giannis is worth 50 wins and Jokic is worth 55 wins. It doesn't mean they will be a lock to win those amount of games. It means in a 82 game schedule, he's worth 50-55 wins. 

The thing about Giannis is he's a roof raiser but he's also a floor raiser. Jokic is primarily a floor raiser. LeBron is a floor raiser and a roof raiser like Luka. Luka is both. Kawhi is both. PG13 is mainly a floor raiser. Same for Westbrook when he was in his prime. KD is both. Trae like Reggie Miller is an exceptional roof raiser that take their games up several levels in the playoffs. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by NBASupes

[kg01]

45 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's my personal metrics based on all of the basic stats, advanced stats, nba.com stats, and my eye test. 

If you want to call it something, call it the SUPES.....

I'm putting together a metric for posters called the 'cageys'.  Don't worry, you'll get a high kg score.  Some folks here definitely need to worry, but I ain't pointin' no fingers....

[REHawksFan]

Here's another one....

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/2022-nba-awards-kc-johnson-explains-mvp-all-nba-ballots

[REHawksFan]

And another...

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/04/12/all-nba-teams-nikola-jokić-giannis-antetokounmpo-stephen-curry

[kg01]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

Here's another one....

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/2022-nba-awards-kc-johnson-explains-mvp-all-nba-ballots

 

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

And another...

https://www.si.com/nba/2022/04/12/all-nba-teams-nikola-jokić-giannis-antetokounmpo-stephen-curry

Ohhh snap, these eggsperts messin' round and making me think they're not totally stupid.

I guess the yokes on me. (pause for laugh track)