Gotta Stop Complaining About Officiating

[macdaddy]

The real question is why can the Heat for decades play this way and others don't.   They don't have the same players they had 10 years ago?   Sure 'culture' but why doesn't that culture work elsewhere.   No one else has tried it?  that seems unlikely.   What seems more likely is the league/officials like having predictable story lines much like WWE.  And the Heat line is 'phycicality'.  Whatever.  We knew this was coming.  I'm not surprised at all.  

[kg01]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

The real question is why can the Heat for decades play this way and others don't.   They don't have the same players they had 10 years ago?   Sure 'culture' but why doesn't that culture work elsewhere.   No one else has tried it?  that seems unlikely.   What seems more likely is the league/officials like having predictable story lines much like WWE.  And the Heat line is 'phycicality'.  Whatever.  We knew this was coming.  I'm not surprised at all.  

But why?  Why do we accept this?

There are a myriad of reasons why the league did away with hand-checking and emphasized freedom of movement.  There's a reason the 90's and early 00's are widely considered a terrible period of basketball with all the football they were playing on the court.

Why are we all supposed to just turn our heads and allow one team to play rubgy?

This is like taking a church league team to play in some high-level tournament.  But since they can't match the actual basketball talent, you let them clutch and grab when they get beat off the dribble.

That's what you want to see?

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

But why?  Why do we accept this?

There are a myriad of reasons why the league did away with hand-checking and emphasized freedom of movement.  There's a reason the 90's and early 00's are widely considered a terrible period of basketball with all the football they were playing on the court.

Why are we all supposed to just turn our heads and allow one team to play rubgy?

This is like taking a church league team to play in some high-level tournament.  But since they can't match the actual basketball talent, you let them clutch and grab when they get beat off the dribble.

That's what you want to see?

Not at all.  It's bs.  I hate it.   But it's reality for some reason.   

Many of us said this months ago.  When Lowry and Morris and PJ landed on the Heat there were several of us who said that this means they will be hacking people with impunity come playoff time.   And then look what happens in game 1.   Now how could we know that 6 months in advance?  Is it because we are geniuses?  No it's because it's pre determined league shenanigans.   Everyone knows it, the Heat know it, they use it to their full advantage.   But watch the Hawks try it and we'll see a different story.     

[kg01]

25 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Not at all.  It's bs.  I hate it.   But it's reality for some reason.   

Many of us said this months ago.  When Lowry and Morris and PJ landed on the Heat there were several of us who said that this means they will be hacking people with impunity come playoff time.   And then look what happens in game 1.   Now how could we know that 6 months in advance?  Is it because we are geniuses?  No it's because it's pre determined league shenanigans.   Everyone knows it, the Heat know it, they use it to their full advantage.   But watch the Hawks try it and we'll see a different story.     

Eggsactly.  We all saw their roster moves before the "new" rules were even announced.  Before.

It's shameless.  The only thing I don't understand is why?  Just to cowtow to Riley?  Why?

[Diesel]

51 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

The real question is why can the Heat for decades play this way and others don't.   They don't have the same players they had 10 years ago?   Sure 'culture' but why doesn't that culture work elsewhere.   No one else has tried it?  that seems unlikely.   What seems more likely is the league/officials like having predictable story lines much like WWE.  And the Heat line is 'phycicality'.  Whatever.  We knew this was coming.  I'm not surprised at all.  

I do believe that there is a culture in Miami and I believe that  based on the fact that I remember Pat Riley in NY.   Riley in NY was responsible for Anthony Mason, Charles Oakley, and others.   He took NY from being a tough finesse team to being a tough defensive physical team.  Thuggary...   Latrelle Spreewell.   And he moved that culture to Miami. 

I agree with what somebody else has said.. we have to match their intensity. 

[marco102]

17 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Point blank.  It’s disingenuous at best.  You can’t have rose-colored glasses getting mad at the whole league complaining about Trae before the rule change.  Is the entire league and every teams’ fans complaining about how many whistles the heat get?  I’m not on social media but I don’t think they are.  Trae went viral outside of basketball circles.
 

This notion that the league and officials are out to put us at a disadvantage is just off base.  David Stern hated the Spurs, nothing even he could do to prevent their dynasty.  Contenders draw fouls and don’t foul, it’s that simple.
 

Hawks took over 2 more FT attempts than their opponents this season and everyone on the squad is finesse-based outside of Delon and OO.  You think opposing fan boards aren’t highlighting some questionable call that benefits us every night?  The heat flip that, all of their players have varying levels of ruggednesses outside of Robinson and Herro.  How to sell and mask contact is a coaching aspect, we can all agree Nate ain’t on his counterparts level this series.

There are dozens of actions on 200+ plays that affect the outcome of a game.  Don’t give the zebras all that damn credit when our best dribble drive attacker is 6 feet 170 pounds who never plays near the rim and theirs is 6’7” 230 who lives at the rim.  

Again, this ain't it chief. 

Lowry diving at the Trae's leg.  Even he knew he almost f***ed up because he went to Trae and apologized.  If they had knocked Trae out of the series because of that stupid ish, then if I were Nate, I'd send every third string player in for the rest of the game with instructions to muck up Jimmy, Bam, Robinson, Herro, and Lowry.  I'm talking elbows to the head, rolling of ankles, and everything.  Get your flagrant 2's as long as they are out a significant of time and ruin Miami's chances.

I don't mind physical basketball, but that wasn't what Miami was doing yesterday. 

Edited April 18, 2022 by marco102

[kg01]

47 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Again, this ain't it chief. 

Lowry diving at the Trae's leg.  Even he knew he almost f***ed up because he went to Trae and apologized.  If they had knocked Trae out of the series because of that stupid ish, then if I were Nate, I'd send every third string player in for the rest of the game with instructions to muck up Jimmy, Bam, Robinson, Herro, and Lowry.  I'm talking elbows to the head, rolling of ankles, and everything.  Get your flagrant 2's as long as they are out a significant of time and ruin Miami's chances.

I don't mind physical basketball, but that wasn't what Miami was doing yesterday. 

Haha, Jimmy Jackson'll be on the broadcast like, "Wow Atlanta going with a strange starting lineup tonight.  Is that Ivan Johnson?  I wonder what this strategy is all abo.. 

...ohhhhhh, that's gotta hurt!"

[REHawksFan]

18 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Haha, Jimmy Jackson'll be on the broadcast like, "Wow Atlanta going with a strange starting lineup tonight.  Is that Ivan Johnson?  I wonder what this strategy is all abo.. 

...ohhhhhh, that's gotta hurt!"

Was thinking this morning about Ivan Johnson.  Trying to figure out if we had ANYONE on the roster to fill that role should Game 2 go like Game 1 with all the assaults.  Sad thing is.....I'm not sure we have anyone in that mold.  We got rid of Solo and he'd be the perfect dude for it.  

You really gonna ask Gorgui to rough someone up?  Or Skylar?  TLC?  

Edited April 18, 2022 by REHawksFan

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Eggsactly.  We all saw their roster moves before the "new" rules were even announced.  Before.

It's shameless.  The only thing I don't understand is why?  Just to cowtow to Riley?  Why?

It's marketing.   The 'gritty' Heat rattling Trae Young in the playoffs?    This is the role they want the Heat to play because they can sell it.    A straight up officiated 1-8 matchup between the Heat and Hawks?  They are afraid no one would watch that.

The league wants these teams to generate drama.  Why they chose the Heat i don't  know but probably because they had the players to do it and now it's their 'culture'.   So they both just kept on with it.   It's not a master plan so much as a let's roll with what's been working.  The same reason stars never foul out.  

 

[Dynamo]

It’s important for Nate to challenge these blatant attempts to hurt the players.Hawks need toughness/enforcers or someone who will call attention theses issues.

 

[thecampster]

I'm less concerned about officiating verse dirty plays.

There were no less than 5 slap plays in that game that made contact with the face (3 on Trae). Lowry's dive into Trae's legs should be getting league review today. There is a review process for things like this. Teams can send plays they deem as dirty or with intent to harm to the league for review. I'm not sure the level of gamesmanship the Hawks want to employ but I would have to bet the Lowry play had to be sent to the league and will get talked about at some point before the game tomorrow. The league likes to keep this stuff in house unless there is a penalty. That it hasn't been discussed publicly tells me that its been sent with game film for review.

Let me explain how this works.  There is a group on every team that reviews game film for advice on officiating and that can complain about specific incidents in games. This isn't to change calls but can result in fines, suspensions and penalties. It is rare.

The problem here is the NBA avoids any negative press and they perceive player suspensions and fines as very negative press. Consider that Grayson Allen received a 1 game suspension this year for his hard foul against the Bulls' Alex Caruso (breaking his wrist). This was one in a series of complaints levied against Allen and took a broken bone to elicit a penalty.

Additionally, the NBA discourages teams from complaining about these things publicly and can even take action against team personnel (coaches, GMs, etc) for publicly commenting on an investigation...even after the fact.  

This is one of the nuances of basketball most fans do not understand and one of the biggest complaints insiders of the game have against the game and how the NBA conducts business.  Certain officials have reputation for a quick whistle and a quick hook. Other officials are known for allowing everything up until the grey area of aggravated assault. The very officiating crew assigned to a game/series can have a greater impact on the outcome of a game than player injuries. Players and coaches are very savvy to this nuance and will even play it to there advantage. They will complain about rough play before a game, especially if they know the officials are known for a quick whistle and hook. But they rarely complain before the officiating crew is announced or if the crew is destined to repeat games in the series.

 

The league has a vested interest in both the best teams and the highest profile stars advancing in the playoffs and will make public statements when necessary to protect those players. The league cannot directly influence the officials before a game but subtle statements (like press releases, public statements in support of clean play and / or dirty players) happen on the regular.  We'll get a feeling on what gamesmanship the Hawks played privately if by tomorrow morning the league makes any statement or leaks through the media they've looked at plays/officiating.

I for one am very concerned. When I saw the Lowry dive specifically (but also the other slaps, the neck grab, etc), I was wondering if the players knew it was open season on Trae Young. You could make the argument it was in response to the Capela non-flagrant call in the Cavs series but I doubt it. I think the NBA has a vested interest in this series going 7 and allowed Miami to play beyond physical in game 1. I don't think they wanted the Trae hype to begin early and couldn't afford an early Miami exit again.

Did we miss shots....oh heavens yes. Do I think we win the game if its called fair? I'm not so sure we don't. I want to look at some plays here through the lens of the flow of the game.

 

The Butler grab on Trae should have been a technical but no tech on Trae. During the play, it can easily be argued Trae was trying to set up to take an offensive foul (he does try to square and stop) but is way late. It can also be argued he is trying to stop Butler from passing ahead (he swipes and and dislodges the ball after contact). The grab around Trae's neck is what the NBA deems a hostile act. If Solomon Hill had done the same to Chris Paul, it would have been an ejection.  See below the NBA definition of a hostile act. See the underlined

"“Two or more players are engaged in a fight or a hostile physical interaction that is not part of normal basketball play and that does not immediately resolve by itself or with the intervention of game officials or players, or a player is ejected from the game for committing a hostile act against another player, for example, when a player intentionally or recklessly harms or attempts to harm another player with a punch, elbow, kick or blow to the head.”

In this play, Butler through force grabs Trae by the back of the neck. This meets the criteria of intentional and a blow to the head. Butler had to be physically separate from Trae by the officials and teammates.  This is easily defined as a hostile act and should have been met with an ejection. This happened with 6:33 left in the 1st quarter.

 

Moving on to the multiple blows to Trae's face. 

The Lowry elbow to the neck. This was a foul (at least). Its borderline a flagrant 1. Reviewing it, the question is did he intend to make that contact in that way. If such, its a flagrant 1. This happened with 3:06 left in the 1st quarter.

The Herro slap was not a play on the ball. There was wind up and follow through. This should have at least been a flagrant 1 and should have been reviewed. Depending on vantage point and review, this could have been considered a flagrant 2 if it was deemed it met the criteria of a hostile act. This happened with 38 seconds left in the 1st quarter.

The Lowry slap to the face. IMHO this was incidental contact and another foul had been called. So no impact.

The Lowry dive at his legs. Lowry is going for the ball. Its a dangerous play but it is a basketball play. A previous foul had been called on the play and this wouldn't have been a foul on this play. 

 

My bigger concern here is the amount of arm holding, jersey tugging, around the back slapping and hip checking that went on. Good defense is about disrupting timing. There's a play just a few minutes into the game where Trae goes to feed the post to OO. OO can't leap to get the ball because his arm is locked up on the play so he tries to bat it back out and hits it to Miami. The play should have been a foul on Lowry for holding OO on the log in. Instead its a turnover.  Those plays are just as dangerous as the smacks to the head as being jerked down, held from making natural leaps, etc, are when torn muscles happen. There were 2 steals from Miami in the game where they poked the ball out and a slap around....problem is they caught all hand/wrist. Anyone whose played basketball will tell you, those plays kill you. You jam fingers, jam wrists and tear hand ligaments because you can't see/feel the impact coming and react unnaturally.

 

These are all dangerous plays and many not getting called.  I'm more worried about that than bad officiating in general.

I'm hoping game one was a just a league message game to the Hawks and not indicative of what will be allowed.  FYI, I'd be saying the same thing if we were playing that way and endangering them.  Check my old posts....I've said similar against Ivan, Zaza and Solo.  Rough is one thing, but keep is clean.

[Dynamo]

Thanks for the assessment.

[kg01]

I concur with all @thecampster said in his days long diatribe.  I took some vacation time, but I got through it all.  Everyone should be proud.  I usually tap out after about 3 sentences.  whew

I will add that I was shocked to hear most NBAradio people considered Capela's foul on Mobley to be very dirty.  They stopped short of saying he got what he deserved in ending up hurt himself.  Rick Mahorn, of all people, said this.  He's got some nerve, to put it mildly.

To campst point, I expect to see Scott Foster on our game tomorrow.  Him or some other vet-laden crew.

[thecampster]

8 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I concur with all @thecampster said in his days long diatribe.  I took some vacation time, but I got through it all.  Everyone should be proud.  I usually tap out after about 3 sentences.  whew

I will add that I was shocked to hear most NBAradio people considered Capela's foul on Mobley to be very dirty.  They stopped short of saying he got what he deserved in ending up hurt himself.  Rick Mahorn, of all people, said this.  He's got some nerve, to put it mildly.

To campst point, I expect to see Scott Foster on our game tomorrow.  Him or some other vet-laden crew.

So Capela's play wasn't "dirty" but it should have been a flagrant 1.  You are supposed to wrap a player up going to the basket. This usually entails arm over arm. That wasn't the case. There wasn't a play on the ball there. It was an unnatural wrap up. I agree with most of the NBA.  But it was a flagrant 1.

I also am not so sure the hop back was intentional on Mobley's part.  He was out of control going down and I believe it was an awkward attempt to gain some balance. Unfortunate but not intentional.

 

The Lowry play bothers me because he is making a play on a loose ball there....My problem is Lowry covers up to protect himself from contact. He knows he's diving into the way of a moving player. This is not a non-allowed play but it is a play Lowry would not make in the regular season because of the risk of injury to himself. It was a dangerous play and he knew it immediately going directly to Trae. I don't think he did this out of genuine remorse but out of fear of repercussion. Unwritten rules thing. No diving at legs no matter what.

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I also am not so sure the hop back was intentional on Mobley's part.  He was out of control going down and I believe it was an awkward attempt to gain some balance. Unfortunate but not intentional.

I think it was definitely intentional.  I'm sure he wasn't intending to hurt him but was mad at getting hacked and trying to make contact.   Mobley is actually falling the other way (toward being on his stomach) which is why Capela doesn't move, then at last minute pushes toward Clint. 

[kg01]

Lowry's play was dirty.  Sorta like when Smart dove into Curry's legs.  Maybe not "dirty" but certainly dangerous.  Knowingly dangerous, which ultimately makes it dirty - follow that logic.

Mobley definitely accelerated into Clint's legs.  I could see it as him trying to skid rather than land with a thud ... but Capela happened to be in the way.  I could see that simply being an unfortunate thing.  The NBA people seemed to think along the lines of 'well if you pulled the guy down you should've gotten outta the way'.

To me, that's an unnecessarily callous way of speaking of a guy that actually did end up hurt.  I thought 'player safety' was a 'thing'.  It's not like he pulled Mobley out of the air.  It's not like he fake-hustle dove into Mobley's ankles .... (see what I did there?)

[thecampster]

21 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I concur with all @thecampster said in his days long diatribe.  I took some vacation time, but I got through it all.  Everyone should be proud.  I usually tap out after about 3 sentences.  whew

I will add that I was shocked to hear most NBAradio people considered Capela's foul on Mobley to be very dirty.  They stopped short of saying he got what he deserved in ending up hurt himself.  Rick Mahorn, of all people, said this.  He's got some nerve, to put it mildly.

To campst point, I expect to see Scott Foster on our game tomorrow.  Him or some other vet-laden crew.

The Mahorn thing just registered. Yah, who the F%$# does he think he is criticizing rough play. That joker made a living ruining insurance company profits.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

I think it was definitely intentional.  I'm sure he wasn't intending to hurt him but was mad at getting hacked and trying to make contact.   Mobley is actually falling the other way (toward being on his stomach) which is why Capela doesn't move, then at last minute pushes toward Clint. 

See I get that. It really is a matter of perspective and I do tend to think the best of people.

[thecampster]

25 minutes ago, kg01 said:

To campst point, I expect to see Scott Foster on our game tomorrow.  Him or some other vet-laden crew.

Notice who isn't on this list???

 

NBA Referee Assignments

April 18, 2022

Referee assignments are posted at approximately 9:00am ET each game day.

Game	Crew Chief	Referee	Umpire	Alternate
Toronto @ Philadelphia	James Capers (#19)	Mark Lindsay (#29)	JB DeRosa (#62)	Ray Acosta (#54)
Denver @ Golden State	Kane Fitzgerald (#5)	Curtis Blair (#74)	Kevin Cutler (#34)	Brent Barnaky (#36)
Utah @ Dallas	David Guthrie (#16)	Courtney Kirkland (#61)	Ed Malloy (#14)	Scott Twardoski (#52)

Replay Center: Bill Kennedy, Justin Van Duyne

[kg01]

7 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Notice who isn't on this list???

 

NBA Referee Assignments

April 18, 2022

Referee assignments are posted at approximately 9:00am ET each game day.

Game	Crew Chief	Referee	Umpire	Alternate
Toronto @ Philadelphia	James Capers (#19)	Mark Lindsay (#29)	JB DeRosa (#62)	Ray Acosta (#54)
Denver @ Golden State	Kane Fitzgerald (#5)	Curtis Blair (#74)	Kevin Cutler (#34)	Brent Barnaky (#36)
Utah @ Dallas	David Guthrie (#16)	Courtney Kirkland (#61)	Ed Malloy (#14)	Scott Twardoski (#52)

Replay Center: Bill Kennedy, Justin Van Duyne

See people think I'm all fluff and silly gifs but ...

Seriously though, the only thing that could throw a wrench in it is the fact that PHX plays tomorrow too and the league may want to see that series go beyond 4 games.  NOP being the babe of the league and all, for some reason.

For those that don't know, Chris Paul has a pretty bad record when Foster officials his games.  Why?  Well for the exact reason campst's post illustrates.  When it's time to tighten up on the rules, they send Foster (or someone like him) in.  As Paul typically operates outside the rules, he's negatively impacted by a ref who actually enforces them.

They (players) painted it (Pauls record with Foster) as some kind of bias.  It ain't that.  It's just that most refs lack the guts to call the game as they see it as opposed to calling the game as it's dictated to them by Paul.