After Watching Last night, Nobody should want Gobert on the Hawks.

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Correct. I mean elite or once in a generation when I say it. Literal GOAT defender is Bill Russell and offensively, LeBron or MJ.

It was definitely confusing to me every time I'd see you using GOAT/WOAT and I'd be scratching my head saying "really? of all time?" but elite or anti-elite makes much more sense.

[JTB]

I’d still take Gobert. With Trae, Gobert is going to be an extremely efficient 20-22 point scorer per game but we can’t let the numbers of Goberts improved scoring with Trae fool us!…would still need another Go to scorer or additional playmaker…

One particular player I’d like Schlenk to go after would be Malcom Brogdon. Brogdon can score on ball good enough and avg 18-20ppg, create well for others, and when healthy not a poor defender.

As stated in another thread ….my dream scenario with Trae-Gobert lineup ….

Pg- Trae

Sg-Brogdon

Sf-Hunter 

Pf-Collins 

C-Gobert 

 

 

 

[MaceCase]

I feel like Bobby Portis would have greater impact for the Hawks than Gobert.  If the goal is to build on the prior season’s success and not the current season’s then I can’t see how you can clamor for someone who has been so consistently schemed out when the games matter most. 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, JTB said:

I’d still take Gobert. With Trae, Gobert is going to be an extremely efficient 20-22 point scorer per game but we can’t let the numbers of Goberts improved scoring with Trae fool us!…would still need another Go to scorer or additional playmaker…

One particular player I’d like Schlenk to go after would be Malcom Brogdon. Brogdon can score on ball good enough and avg 18-20ppg, create well for others, and when healthy not a poor defender.

As stated in another thread ….my dream scenario with Trae-Gobert lineup ….

Pg- Trae

Sg-Brogdon

Sf-Hunter 

Pf-Collins 

C-Gobert 

 

 

 

Brogdon can't stay healthy and is only getting older.  Bad combination. 

[JTB]

23 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Brogdon can't stay healthy and is only getting older.  Bad combination. 

I understand but there’s just not a lot of good options if Gobert was acquired in a trade.

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, AHF said:

It was definitely confusing to me every time I'd see you using GOAT/WOAT and I'd be scratching my head saying "really? of all time?" but elite or anti-elite makes much more sense.

To a degree, Trae is the WOAT defender of all time that I've seen. That is true. But him being an offensive GOAT or Gobert being a defensive GOAT isn't true but they are generational.

 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by NBASupes

[AHF]

15 hours ago, NBASupes said:

To a degree, Trae is the WOAT defender of all time that I've seen. 

For you to say that makes me think you are still using this in a different way.  I'm not aware of a single metric that pegs him as the worst defender in the NBA this season let alone of all time.  Are you?  (I just checked all forms of RAPTOR and then Drtg (BR), DRPM (ESPN), and DWS (BR).)

In terms of ability rather than production, I saw stretches where he clearly was not engaged on defense and was terrible and other stretches where he drew some charges, grabbed some steals, grabbed some defensive rebounds, and generally came closer to holding his own.  That says to me that he is coasting on D at times and those times certainly hurt the team but don't represent his ability when engaged.  So when I see what he does when engaged, I'm not looking at a great defender by any means but I'm also not looking at one who stands out in any historical way.

Using DRPM since it is easy to sort the results of the entire league by way of example, Trae ranks 113th this season.  Is that great? No.  But there are 557 people ranked so definitely not the bottom of the pack either.  

Let's use the guy who is ranked at the bottom of that metric as a comparison (I'm not using some like Darren Collison who has lower metrics than DJ Augustin because Collison didn't play enough to have meaningful numbers).

DJ Augustin    vs     Trae Young

(Higher is Better Metrics)

-5.91 DRPM  vs +1.21 DRPM

-5.8 DBxRAPTOR vs -2.8 DBxRAPTOR

-5.2 OverallDRAPTOR vs -3.0 OverallDRAPTOR

0.1 DWS vs 1.0 DWS

(Lower Is Better Metric)

120 DRTG vs 118 DRTG

Trae is better in all these numbers and the gap is quite significant in most of them.  So was Trae the worst defender in the league this season either in terms of his production or ability?  I don't think so.  Granted, some of these numbers are tough to compare across teams (DRTG in particular is one where the team's overall numbers tend to drive everyone on the roster) but DJ Augustin is hardly unique in being worse than Trae in all or most of these numbers.  A few others:  Anfernee Simons, Ben McLemore, Terrence Ross, etc.  And that doesn't go after the scrub type players like James Bouknight.  

Did this season have the worst 10 seasons of defense in NBA history such that all these guys were worse than every player who ever played before?  I don't think so.

So I'm just find the use of GOAT/WOAT to mean anything other than what they literally mean to be confusing and misleading.  But I'm fine however you or anyone else wants to use them as long as we are working from a common understanding of the term.

As you are using the term to apply to Trae, I don't see the case for it.  He is a weak defender who needs to improve but he is already better than he was two years ago and seems to me to be clearly not the worst in the entire league today let alone the history of the sport.

[Packfill]

23 hours ago, kg01 said:

Brogdon can't stay healthy and is only getting older.  Bad combination. 

 

[Packfill]

23 hours ago, kg01 said:

Brogdon can't stay healthy and is only getting older.  Bad combination. 

Well, if you look at him as a replacement for Bogi, who himself has trouble staying healthy, then you are not looking at as big a relative health difference.  Both are the same age, by the way.  

[kg01]

1 minute ago, Packfill said:

Well, if you look at him as a replacement for Bogi, who himself has trouble staying healthy, then you are not looking at as big a relative health difference.  Both are the same age, by the way.  

Bogd misses games, Brogd misses seasons.  Big difference.

It can be argued that Brogd is well past his prime.  Bogd just needs to stay on the court.

[Packfill]

Any roster construction scenarios that do not involve a second guy who can create his own shot should be dead in the water.  Saying that Gobert will increase his scoring because of Trae's passing is nice, but it does nothing to solve the issue of needing a second ballhandler/shot-creator.  

Unless the team is looking to upgrade the center position with Embid or Jokic I would look to upgrade scoring and defense at other places on the roster rather than take on more salary at the center position.

[Packfill]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Bogd misses games, Brogd misses seasons.  Big difference.

It can be argued that Brogd is well past his prime.  Bogd just needs to stay on the court.

Over the past three seasons Bogi has played 168 games and Brogdan has played 146.  A sizable difference yes but not so big as you suggest. And remember, they are the same age.  Brogdan would be a good realistic add for the Hawks, albeit one with risk involved.  

Ideally the Hawks would look to make a much bigger upgrade on the wing but I am not sure if there is an obvious deal out there, and I do not know who that player is.

[thecampster]

On 5/1/2022 at 7:33 PM, NBASupes said:

To a degree, Trae is the WOAT defender of all time that I've seen. That is true. But him being an offensive GOAT or Gobert being a defensive GOAT isn't true but they are generational.

 

 

I just watched this.  Advanced basketball comprehension required.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

I just watched this.  Advanced basketball comprehension required.

So you need me to explain it to you or what?  #cantstopdontwannastop

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

So you need me to explain it to you or what?  #cantstopdontwannastop

Are you working at the gym right now? You are all aggro today!

[Spud2nique]

46 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Are you working at the gym right now? You are all aggro today!

No actually I’m at the vet. The gym is after … perhaps I should opt for stretching or tai chi.

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

Are you working at the gym right now? You are all aggro today!

I just finished curling Campster entire body weight for 3 reps ‍ @thecampster yea.

[kg01]

4 hours ago, Sothron said:

Are you working at the gym right now? You are all aggro today!

Listen, I'm not sayin' @Spud2nique is a Bay Area resident for the 'roids but ..... ok, it's for the 'roids.

Ok, now I'm going into witless protection before squd logs in and sees this. 

[Spud2nique]

34 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Listen, I'm not sayin' @Spud2nique is a Bay Area resident for the 'roids but ..... ok, it's for the 'roids.

Ok, now I'm going into witless protection before squd logs in and sees this. 

 Hell no I ain’t a bodybuilder. I hated Bonds and McGwire and Sosa for all that’s crap. Balco and Vince Conti, hell no.

Background is basketball tennis and swimming . 
 

I guess I just enjoy moving lbs. around at times. It’s either that or bad road rage… or getting banned from forums.  

 

 

[benhillboy]

Anybody got that BSPN Insider article comparing Gobert and Ayton?