Evaluating and How to Evaluate Coaching Candidates (split off thread)

[Wretch]

True story: I quite naturally read @sturt's posts in Ian Mckellen's Gandalf voice...

[shakes]

11 minutes ago, Wretch said:

True story: I quite naturally read @sturt's posts in Ian Mckellen's Gandalf voice...

that's weird.  I read them in the voice of Sloth from Goonies.

[kg01]

24 minutes ago, Wretch said:

True story: I quite naturally read @sturt's posts in Ian Mckellen's Gandalf voice...

We read yours in Morgan Freeman voice.

yall can read mine in young Denzel voice.  And, remember its not Den-zell.  It's Den-zil. 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, LongTimeFan said:

 

 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

From where I sit, Tim Duncan can match her resume' and then some, given the criteria you celebrate (rightfully so) here.

I'm not a fan of Steve Nash kinds of hires... so that speaks perhaps to my greater allergy here. Sure, it happens occasionally, but should it? Count me with those who would tend to vote no, and at that, regardless of what phase (developmental or contending) a given team is in.

Pop's endorsement is persuasive... except... wait... it's news that a head coach endorses his assistant?

In what world?

Her resume' is above average. I'm just guessing, so don't hold me to a specific number, but it's my perception probably 6-ish others can boast something similar.

She's an option for the right situation. An option. Right situation. There are other options approximately as attractive. There are limited right situations.

(Since this seems to be a live wire conversation coming up a couple of times now, I suppose at some point I'm going to have to generate the list of assistant coaches who I would consider to be in the same pool with Becky. But it can't be today.)

So you'd take Duncan over Becky as the most qualified to be an NBA  head coach?  Really?  Here is what Pops says about Duncan:

Quote

Five-time NBA champion Tim Duncan "has no interest in coaching" if San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich is to be believed.

Popovich made the remark when he was asked if certain players can make good coaches, to which the Spurs coach replied that Tim Duncan wasn't one of them. Pop said:

"He may never go to a game the rest of his life. But he comes to practices and walks around to see the boys play. But he has no interest in coaching."

Tim Duncan did become an assistant coach with the Spurs for one season in 2019-20, but did not continue in that role thereafter. Asked whether he has given up on Duncan returning to a coaching role, Popovich replied:

"Yeah. I gave up. When we had him [Duncan] that one year, I gave up after a week. It shows a maturity and intelligence, unlike some of us. We just keep doing it because we love it.

"But he has other interests. He's not wedded to basketball. People fall in love, but basketball doesn't really love you. Your friends and family love you. Basketball doesn't love you."

I'm confused here Stu.  Help me out why you would take the person who Pops says would not be a good NBA coach over the one he says would be a great NBA coach.

[sturt]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

So you'd take Duncan over Becky as the most qualified to be an NBA  head coach?  Really?  Here is what Pops says about Duncan:

I'm confused here Stu.  Help me out why you would take the person who Pops says would not be a good NBA coach over the one he says would be a great NBA coach.

Begging the prosecutor's pardon.... I said what I said.

That's not what the prosecutor said.

 

I said

  

4 hours ago, sturt said:

From where I sit, Tim Duncan can match her resume' and then some, given the criteria you celebrate (rightfully so) here.

 

... and if the prosecutor had stuck with "So you'd take Duncan over Becky as the more qualified to be an NBA head coach," he would have been fair to what I said. Yes, comparing resume's, absolutely.

 

But then, he said this

2 hours ago, AHF said:

why you would take the person who Pops says would not be a good NBA coach over the one he says would be a great NBA coach.

 

That's not what I said.

I'm comparing resume's, which essentially is the same as what the prosecutor had done in his post ahead of mine. And I said "Duncan can match her resume' and then some."

 

What the prosecutor is attempting to do is a bit of a shell game. He knows that what I said is accurate, that Duncan's resume exceeds hers. So he had to figure out some way to redefine the conversation. Hell if I know if Duncan wants to coach. Hell if I know if he'd be good. That's not on the resume'.

And so, look, I'm perfectly content with Pops' assessment. For the person intelligent enough not to be hoodwinked by the prosecutors' switcheroo, it does no damage to my assertion. Duncan's resume' is an example of someone's who meets or exceeds Hammons', and I feel confident (admittedly not yet having done the deeper dive) that Hammons' resume' doesn't exceed every other NBA assistant coach's resume'. I threw out the number 6. Maybe that's accurate, maybe it's short a few, maybe it's a few too many, but pardon me that I'm doubtful that hers is an irrefutable #1.

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Begging the prosecutor's pardon.... I said what I said.

That's not what the prosecutor said.

 

I said

  

 

... and if the prosecutor had stuck with "So you'd take Duncan over Becky as the more qualified to be an NBA head coach," he would have been fair to what I said. Yes, comparing resume's, absolutely.

 

But then, he said this

 

That's not what I said.

I'm comparing resume's, which essentially is the same as what the prosecutor had done in his post ahead of mine. And I said "Duncan can match her resume' and then some."

 

What the prosecutor is attempting to do is a bit of a shell game. He knows that what I said is accurate, that Duncan's resume exceeds hers. So he had to figure out some way to redefine the conversation. Hell if I know if Duncan wants to coach. Hell if I know if he'd be good. That's not on the resume'.

And so, look, I'm perfectly content with Pops' assessment. For the person intelligent enough not to be hoodwinked by the prosecutors' switcheroo, it does no damage to my assertion. Duncan's resume' is an example of someone's who meets or exceeds Hammons', and I feel confident (admittedly not yet having done the deeper dive) that Hammons' resume' doesn't exceed every other NBA assistant coach's resume'. I threw out the number 6. Maybe that's accurate, maybe it's short a few, maybe it's a few too many, but pardon me that I'm doubtful that hers is an irrefutable #1.

 

 

 

Duncan has worse than no coaching experience.  His only experience led Pops to conclude he is not suited to be a coach.  Becky has years of success as a coach. Both are HOF players. But you think Duncan’s experience as a player overrides his shallow coaching experience and more importantly that it is was a FAILURE.  
 

I can’t follow this logic at all.

[sturt]

34 minutes ago, AHF said:

But you think Duncan’s experience as a player overrides his shallow coaching experience and more importantly that it is was a FAILURE.  

Missed again, my friend.

But keep trying, by all means.

I said what I said. I'll repeat it for you, which is a compliment b/c I wouldn't repeat it for just anyone.

2 hours ago, sturt said:

I'm comparing resume's, which essentially is the same as what the prosecutor had done in his post ahead of mine. And I said "Duncan can match her resume' and then some."

 

What the prosecutor is attempting to do is a bit of a shell game. He knows that what I said is accurate, that Duncan's resume exceeds hers. So he had to figure out some way to redefine the conversation. Hell if I know if Duncan wants to coach. Hell if I know if he'd be good. That's not on the resume'.

What you are raising is "Yeah, but what about what's not on the resume?... Pops has said Timmy is not cut out for coaching b/c he has too many other interests and goals in life."

And to that I've said

2 hours ago, sturt said:

And so, look, I'm perfectly content with Pops' assessment.

That's not part of the resume' assessment. That's the stuff you discover in the hiring process once you start calling the references... or maybe discover in the interviews... or in Duncan's case, he probably doesn't send you a resume' to begin with.

Zooming back out, don't miss the forest for the tree, singular, as it appears you're wanting to do, but I'm not letting you.

The discussion was/is about whether Hammons is one of a pool of reasonable current assistant coach candidates for a team in the development phase (my take), or if she's the ideal candidate regardless, even if your team expects to be a contender (your take).

The conversation took a turn toward comparing resume's... and that's why we're here.

When we compare resume's, she's one of the reasonable candidates. She's not head over high heels (hehe... you like that, right?... I knew you would   ) the best candidate out there.

And/but by the way. During Duncan's one year, Pops had to be out one night. Who did he choose to take the lead chair? And, more to the point here, who did he not? You don't wanna know.

But it doesn't matter. This isn't actually about Tim (the tree), it's about the forest (the degree to which there are other reasonable candidates in the pool along side Becky).

[JayBirdHawk]

Bring on Becky. She already has a connection with Murray.

1. "She's one of the best coaches I've ever had." - Danny Green

Throughout his basketball career, Green has played for heavily respected coaches like Nick Nurse, Mike Brown, Frank Vogel, and Roy Williams in addition to Gregg Popovich. In an interview with the Denver Post in 2020, the veteran guard said Becky was in the top five coaches he's ever played for.
2. "She did it the right way. When she interjected, people listened." - Tim Duncan

Still, he had spent the last couple of years of his playing career with Hammon sitting on the bench as an assistant, and he saw firsthand just how important she was.

"She did it the right way," he said on the Road Trippin' Podcast. "She was great at her role. She knows basketball."

3. "Her knowledge of the game is one-of-a-kind, and the person she is off the floor makes her even better." - DeMar DeRozan

DeMar DeRozan might not quite have had the on-court help he needed during his three-year stint with the Spurs, but he's spoken repeatedly about just how much he learned from both Coach Popovich and Coach Hammon in that time.

The compliments about Hammon's pure knowledge of coaching Xs and Os was a recurring theme from players throughout her time as an assistant coach, but it might mean a little more coming from one of the greatest players in NBA history.


4. "She is setting an example for every woman out there." - Dejounte Murray"
You've got to tip your hat to her," said Murray. "I pay attention to all those little things. She's been here since I got here. I've been watching her talk to every single player, whether he was a veteran dude or a young dude. Just using her voice and her knowledge of the game."

Murray went on to say the two developed a close bond off the court, with Hammon asking him about his kids and texting him on holidays often. During the women's college basketball tournament last year, Dejounte showed his respect for the Colorado State legend.

https://airalamo.com/posts/san-antonio-spurs-5-best-quotes-about-becky-hammon/amp/3#slideshow-top-bar

[AHF]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

Missed again, my friend.

But keep trying, by all means.

I said what I said. I'll repeat it for you, which is a compliment b/c I wouldn't repeat it for just anyone.

What you are raising is "Yeah, but what about what's not on the resume?... Pops has said Timmy is not cut out for coaching b/c he has too many other interests and goals in life."

And to that I've said

That's not part of the resume' assessment. That's the stuff you discover in the hiring process once you start calling the references... or maybe discover in the interviews... or in Duncan's case, he probably doesn't send you a resume' to begin with.

Zooming back out, don't miss the forest for the tree, singular, as it appears you're wanting to do, but I'm not letting you.

The discussion was/is about whether Hammons is one of a pool of reasonable current assistant coach candidates for a team in the development phase (my take), or if she's the ideal candidate regardless, even if your team expects to be a contender (your take).

The conversation took a turn toward comparing resume's... and that's why we're here.

When we compare resume's, she's one of the reasonable candidates. She's not head over high heels (hehe... you like that, right?... I knew you would   ) the best candidate out there.

And/but by the way. During Duncan's one year, Pops had to be out one night. Who did he choose to take the lead chair? And, more to the point here, who did he not? You don't wanna know.

But it doesn't matter. This isn't actually about Tim (the tree), it's about the forest (the degree to which there are other reasonable candidates in the pool along side Becky).

Lmao at pretending like his failure as an NBA assistant coach isn’t part of his resume.  As if you don’t ask someone “why did you leave your last job” and not get concerned when the answer is “well, I just didn’t really care enough to stick with it but please give me a bigger higher page job of the same kind.”
 

I’m not pretending like these two are comparable candidates because Duncan is probably the worst example of a respected HOfer you could have picked.  Because he has actual failure as an NBA coach in his resume.  Duncan’s resume would be stronger just as a HOF player without his failed coaching stint where you hire him and hope he isn’t the next Steve Nash, Magic Johnson, Isaih Thomas, etc. But for me Becky’s HOF career puts her ahead of Bud and people like that but behind Duncan in this category.  Then her success and tenure as an NBA coach puts her ahead of Duncan.  Then her WNBA championship puts her farther ahead.  It isn’t close when one person has had minor experience as an assistant  and struggled mightily and quit with that role.  
 

Duncan’s NBA coaching experience sits on his resume like Bobby Petrino’s head coaching experience in the NFL.  It is a resume red flag and huge negative.  The fact that you don’t acknowledge that he quit coaching and has been sitting around at home because he has no passion for it and don’t see that as part of his resume is crazy to me.  You sure as heck would bring it up if it was part of Becky’s history and if you didn’t you would be ignoring a hugely important part of the resume.

[sturt]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

Lmao at pretending like his failure as an NBA assistant coach isn’t part of his resume.  As if you don’t ask someone “why did you leave your last job” and not get concerned when the answer is “well, I just didn’t really care enough to stick with it but please give me a bigger higher page job of the same kind.”
 

I’m not pretending like these two are comparable candidates because Duncan is probably the worst example of a respected HOfer you could have picked.  Because he has actual failure as an NBA coach in his resume.  Duncan’s resume would be stronger just as a HOF player without his failed coaching stint where you hire him and hope he isn’t the next Steve Nash, Magic Johnson, Isaih Thomas, etc. But for me Becky’s HOF career puts her ahead of Bud and people like that but behind Duncan in this category.  Then her success and tenure as an NBA coach puts her ahead of Duncan.  Then her WNBA championship puts her farther ahead.  It isn’t close when one person has had minor experience as an assistant  and struggled mightily and quit with that role.  
 

Duncan’s NBA coaching experience sits on his resume like Bobby Petrino’s head coaching experience in the NFL.  It is a resume red flag and huge negative.  The fact that you don’t acknowledge that he quit coaching and has been sitting around at home because he has no passion for it and don’t see that as part of his resume is crazy to me.  You sure as heck would bring it up if it was part of Becky’s history and if you didn’t you would be ignoring a hugely important part of the resume.

 

 

You keep tossing shade at the tree (not the forest), AHF. Be my guest. I'm happy to concede everything you want me to concede about Tim Duncan. That's fine. All of it. You're right, I'm wrong. Sorry I brought him up.

 

So?

 

Hammon's a reasonable option.

That's still where we're at.

She's not "the ideal" ... based on the resume which is all that us on the outside can look at.

She's in the pool.

 

Aside, I'm more persuaded than ever that you and Jay are brother and sister or something like that... have each other's back on every little thing for years anyhow, but the fury with which you're arguing this is just too comparable to ignore.

 

Jay, you can gather all the quotes you want. Who's so silly as to believe that she's going to get negative reviews from a single solitary soul? Whaddaya think they're nuts? Who wants on the league sh!tlist, let alone that of their organization, let alone that of female fans across the entire country. It's nice they say nice things, and the flip side is, at least you know she's not so terrible that someone in the mold of an Enes Kanter (cavalier) feels it's so important to set the record straight.

Please. Argue with yourself just a little about the "proofs" you want to be taken as somehow "objective."

[sturt]

So, you two got my ire up... hehe... enough to actually attempt to do what I said I didn't have time to do today... did the first dive into it, anyway. Won't finish tonight. But soon enough.

[sturt]

12 hours ago, AHF said:

You sure as heck would bring it up if it was part of Becky’s history and if you didn’t you would be ignoring a hugely important part of the resume.

Ya know, I didn't actually read this last sentence. Was one of those posts where I got the gist of what was being asserted, and just didn't make it there.

I do feel I need to defend, or at least clarify.

I would not have brought it up, and there's a reason for that... when we began this, there was a discussion specifically of accolades that Harmon brings, bullet points to her resume'.

At that stage, I'm the HR guy sitting at the desk ruffling through the resume's, one pile of definite candidates, one pile of no's and one pile of maybes... and suggesting strictly on those bullet points that Harmon is in the pile of definite candidates.

I'm not deciding who should be offered the job at that point. I'm deciding who is in the pool. Why? Because who is in the pool is sufficient for the purpose of this conversation... as I take it, you're suggesting, effectively, she had no competition... it's a "pile" of one.

Funny thing. You might not know this, given that you've probably been with the same law firm for your entire career, but people don't normally put things on resume's that are not actually likely to help them get the job. They just put things on there that they think will get them in the "definite candidates" pile... so, just the positives. And the potential employer doesn't tend to expect full disclosure, either.

I didn't know that Pop said what he said about Duncan. He clearly was disappointed that Duncan doesn't have the same fire to coach as he does. Relevant to this, I also didn't know that Pop had selected Duncan to take his seat... not Harmon... when he was away for that one game. You might not know, fwiw, that one of the quotes above complimentary of Harmon is pulled from that after game presser--Duncan essentially saying that it was a group effort, and citing Harmon's contribution. I only brought up this latter factoid as an aside. The big picture issue here is not... and importantly, never was... whether Tim Duncan is a better candidate than Harmon would be. The big picture issue is what it was when we began the conversation. So, no, matter of fact, I wouldn't sure as heck bring it up if it was part of Harmon's history that there was something affirming she was not considered superior to Duncan... that there is a "something," in that, she was not selected to take the lead chair. But I only mentioned it very briefly and in passing, only after you'd suggested something like an open-and-shut case. Because it's not all that relevant to the big picture issue that began this discussion.

 

[Final_quest]

15 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Bring on Becky. She already has a connection with Murray.

1. "She's one of the best coaches I've ever had." - Danny Green

Throughout his basketball career, Green has played for heavily respected coaches like Nick Nurse, Mike Brown, Frank Vogel, and Roy Williams in addition to Gregg Popovich. In an interview with the Denver Post in 2020, the veteran guard said Becky was in the top five coaches he's ever played for.
2. "She did it the right way. When she interjected, people listened." - Tim Duncan

Still, he had spent the last couple of years of his playing career with Hammon sitting on the bench as an assistant, and he saw firsthand just how important she was.

"She did it the right way," he said on the Road Trippin' Podcast. "She was great at her role. She knows basketball."

3. "Her knowledge of the game is one-of-a-kind, and the person she is off the floor makes her even better." - DeMar DeRozan

DeMar DeRozan might not quite have had the on-court help he needed during his three-year stint with the Spurs, but he's spoken repeatedly about just how much he learned from both Coach Popovich and Coach Hammon in that time.

The compliments about Hammon's pure knowledge of coaching Xs and Os was a recurring theme from players throughout her time as an assistant coach, but it might mean a little more coming from one of the greatest players in NBA history.


4. "She is setting an example for every woman out there." - Dejounte Murray"
You've got to tip your hat to her," said Murray. "I pay attention to all those little things. She's been here since I got here. I've been watching her talk to every single player, whether he was a veteran dude or a young dude. Just using her voice and her knowledge of the game."

Murray went on to say the two developed a close bond off the court, with Hammon asking him about his kids and texting him on holidays often. During the women's college basketball tournament last year, Dejounte showed his respect for the Colorado State legend.

https://airalamo.com/posts/san-antonio-spurs-5-best-quotes-about-becky-hammon/amp/3#slideshow-top-bar

I can go off of some quotes, but in this scenario it's tainted.  We're talking about the only female coach in the league.  The players have everything to lose from a PR perspective, and have a lot to gain, by how they talk about her.  She may be all of the things mentioned, but this is also a scenario set up for people to oversell her abilities and impact.  
 

[shakes]

16 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Bring on Becky. She already has a connection with Murray.

1. "She's one of the best coaches I've ever had." - Danny Green

Throughout his basketball career, Green has played for heavily respected coaches like Nick Nurse, Mike Brown, Frank Vogel, and Roy Williams in addition to Gregg Popovich. In an interview with the Denver Post in 2020, the veteran guard said Becky was in the top five coaches he's ever played for.
2. "She did it the right way. When she interjected, people listened." - Tim Duncan

Still, he had spent the last couple of years of his playing career with Hammon sitting on the bench as an assistant, and he saw firsthand just how important she was.

"She did it the right way," he said on the Road Trippin' Podcast. "She was great at her role. She knows basketball."

3. "Her knowledge of the game is one-of-a-kind, and the person she is off the floor makes her even better." - DeMar DeRozan

DeMar DeRozan might not quite have had the on-court help he needed during his three-year stint with the Spurs, but he's spoken repeatedly about just how much he learned from both Coach Popovich and Coach Hammon in that time.

The compliments about Hammon's pure knowledge of coaching Xs and Os was a recurring theme from players throughout her time as an assistant coach, but it might mean a little more coming from one of the greatest players in NBA history.


4. "She is setting an example for every woman out there." - Dejounte Murray"
You've got to tip your hat to her," said Murray. "I pay attention to all those little things. She's been here since I got here. I've been watching her talk to every single player, whether he was a veteran dude or a young dude. Just using her voice and her knowledge of the game."

Murray went on to say the two developed a close bond off the court, with Hammon asking him about his kids and texting him on holidays often. During the women's college basketball tournament last year, Dejounte showed his respect for the Colorado State legend.

https://airalamo.com/posts/san-antonio-spurs-5-best-quotes-about-becky-hammon/amp/3#slideshow-top-bar

Bringing in a woman might be a really good idea.  In this day and age of cancel culture it would be a really bad look for a male player to get into it with his female head coach.   Would be very bad optics for Trae to feud with her.    Might be exactly what we need to keep Trae and any other prima donnas (sorry, prima dons) in check.

[sturt]

19 minutes ago, shakes said:

Bringing in a woman might be a really good idea.  In this day and age of cancel culture it would be a really bad look for a male player to get into it with his female head coach.   Would be very bad optics for Trae to feud with her.    Might be exactly what we need to keep Trae and any other prima donnas (sorry, prima dons) in check.

That's a definite bonus.

But I think it matters nothing if you don't feel complete confidence that, among those in the likely candidate pool, the hire gives your roster the actual best shot at winning a championship.

Woulda been different if this were 2017, starting into a developmental phase, no expectations.

It's the "complete" in "complete confidence" that gives me pause. Can't get there.

That said, there is something to be said for how an older sister or younger aunt who have some esteem for their intelligence in the family can have a unique and compelling voice. It plays well in my imagination anyway, which may surprise @AHF and his sidekick @JayBirdHawk (... though it really shouldn't).  Would be an immediate breath, nay, wind of fresh air... think the Hawks-i-verse would jump on board with both feet once such a decision would be made, even some of the skeptics... only would be the national barkers and click-baiters who would be negative.

How long would that last, though? That's the question one can more easily ask now, ahead of something like that happening. What happens if/when you find yourself getting essentially Nate McMillan-like results? If she doesn't have irrefutable success, you're going to be stuck with her for an extended period b/c no one wants to see the first woman head coach also be the first fired woman head coach. It really is a significantly big-reward/big-risk situation.

Again, can do that in a developmental phase. But if you're going to do that in a contending phase, you'd sure as hell better be 100% completely confident there's not even an equivalent option, that she is the hands-down best option, period, end of sentence.

[JayBirdHawk]

11 minutes ago, sturt said:

, which may surprise @AHF and his sidekick @JayBirdHawk (... though it really shouldn't).

you try too hard at whatever this is, when it's really unnecessary.

[sturt]

18 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

you try to hard at whatever this is, when it's really unnecessary

"hard?"

Two mentions... and I think a third if you go back far enough to look.

But you're right, it's not actually meaningful in any way.

Indeed, there are plenty of examples on this board of two people who chronically disagree with each other... so why shouldn't there be at least one example of two people who chronically agree? Adds balance. Surely it's just as okay to agree as it is to disagree.

It's just unusual. That's all.

( @macdaddy ... I'm wrong?)

 

[thecampster]

12 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

you try too hard at whatever this is, when it's really unnecessary.

Boy do I hear that one late at night a lot!!! 

[sturt]

Just now, thecampster said:

Boy do I hear that one late at night a lot!!!