2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Which is why our front office declined those offers.  Yet people here still criticize them for not making enough moves, when these are the types of moves that have been available to us.  I think most of this board is still in somewhat of a denial of how little we could have done the past two years due to Schlenks overpays. Those extension overpays that had long-term ramifications and we're still unwinding them.  We're going to be in such a better place when Clint is off the books, and we get deeper into Hunters extension (his pay relative to the total cap gets smaller every year), particularly knowing that Landry has not made these same mistakes and has been signing reasonable deals.

I think you'll find I praised them for not accepting those garbage offers.  The front office must, however find a way to get back value for either Trae or DJM.  Both of them should be valuable trade pieces and we need one of them gone next year, imo.  Not taking bad offers is part of the job.  Negotiating offers that are worth doing is another part of the job.  Not getting that done at the trade deadline was disappointing but better than taking a bad deal.  Not getting a good deal this summer would be terrible, imo.  Positive change needs to happen.  I fear another lost season if we simply rely on organic growth of our existing roster, our lottery pick, and Clint dropping off the books after next season.

That would then put us in a position where Trae would have one season left on his deal before he could opt out and become a FA.  We need to significantly more competitive by then than we are today.  We can surive this year's lost season just fine but we can't repeat it next year.

[JayBirdHawk]

13 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Heard.

I'll remind folks of something I saw last year.  At some point last season, Zion and Lebron had missed the same total career games due to injury.  Only, Lebron was in year 20 and zion was in year 4.

Agree with a lot of this.  Just wanted to remind folks, iirc, the impetus for NOP moving on from Ingram was to create more pt for Murphy.

So, if we're lucky, it'd be Jones+ for Murray. 

I just hope the Hawks don't end up being the sucker team like this guy says:

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

19 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Which is why our front office declined those offers.  Yet people here still criticize them for not making enough moves, when these are the types of moves that have been available to us.  I think most of this board is still in somewhat of a denial of how little we could have done the past two years due to Schlenks overpays. Those extension overpays that had long-term ramifications and we're still unwinding them.  We're going to be in such a better place when Clint is off the books, and we get deeper into Hunters extension (his pay relative to the total cap gets smaller every year), particularly knowing that Landry has not made these same mistakes and has been signing reasonable deals.

Those weren't deals that they should have accepted.

My issues with those deals came from the premise/rumors that the Hawks were also looking to cut salary. True or not it devalued Murray's value and created that perception.

[JTB]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Love the enthusiasm, @JTB, but i disagree with a lot of what you're saying.  Ingram for Murray would only be a mild upgrade. NOP isn't trading Jones or Murphy with Ingram - therein lies the problem.

And the idea of trading Trae for any package from NOP is a non-starter for me. 

I threw Herb or Murphy in with BI because it’s no secret they want to get rid of CJs bad contract…who I also threw in.

1 hour ago, theheroatl said:

I don't think NO will trade Herb Jones as much as we want him.

I will take Murphy if we can’t get Jones. It’s still an upgrade defensively for us either way.

1 hour ago, Mikey said:

Not getting herb with Ingram. It will be one or the other.

If we take CJs bad contract I don’t know why they wouldn’t listen….especially if we give them OO in the deal to help offset the loss of Herbs defense.

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Any trade that includes McCollum is unserious.  I would rather just develop our bench guards than have him suck up minutes from players that need to develop.  He's not a winning player and his fit with Trae would be horrendous -- they would set new lows for how bad a back court can be defensively.

Not if we are getting back Ingram and jones or Murphy….also I never said put CJ in the lineup with Trae. I said bring him off the bench with Bogi…just eat these last two years of CJs bad deal.

46 minutes ago, Mikey said:

I've been trying to tell you guys this from the jump but every Murray trade on here you guys reject. They have to be okay losing the trade on paper because they overpaid and from a talent standpoint Murray isn't gonna return a player on paper as good as him. But can he return a much better fit and or additional assets to use.

It is about building the best TEAM. not collecting the most talent

What was that trade again ? I thought it included BI and Herb.

9 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I (shockingly) agree with all this, jeffe.

Honestly, if McCollum is in a Murray deal, I need Murphy and Jones to offset the negative value.  Then I probably immediately cut or trade McCollum. 

Exactly….not sure if we get both but hell 1 is better than nothing 

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

If you trade for McCollum it is with a plan to flip him or Bogi to another team.  (I'd rather have Bogi).  I would definitely take McCollum if I could get Jones and Murphy.  I would pay another team to take him if needed.

Or you just take the hit and keep him (CJ) until his contract expires.

[JTB]

4 hours ago, Mikey said:

I've been trying to tell you guys this from the jump but every Murray trade on here you guys reject. They have to be okay losing the trade on paper because they overpaid and from a talent standpoint Murray isn't gonna return a player on paper as good as him. But can he return a much better fit and or additional assets to use.

It is about building the best TEAM. not collecting the most talent

Remind me again what you and @NBASupes heard the trade rumor was .

i know BI was in the trade but then you guys said the hawks target is actually Herb Jones. 
 

That’s fine but a Murray for Herb jones doesn’t work without fillers. Even then if we traded Murray for defense only guy…we’d be relying heavily on Trae, Bogi, Jalen offensively which may be ok depending on who we draft at center.

[KB21]

55 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I just hope the Hawks don't end up being the sucker team like this guy says:

 

 

Trading for Ingram would absolutely be a sucker move and one where you are making a deal just to make a deal.  

[AHF]

15 minutes ago, JTB said:

Or you just take the hit and keep him (CJ) until his contract expires.

I just think you could find a home for a guy who puts up 20/4.5/4 with 40% 3pt%.  I can see him taking Bogi's role off the bench if we traded Bogi but otherwise seems like a better fit on another team and that you could find a match out there.   (Bring in an overpaid but still productive PF or something).

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Trading for Ingram would absolutely be a sucker move and one where you are making a deal just to make a deal.  

His future salary combined with the nature of his offense (and his eh defense) is the big issue.  If he and DJM had identical contracts, I think that is a trade that helps both teams even if I could easily think of better fits for us.

[RedDawg#8]

Ingram and the Pels will be the 2024 version of Siakam/Raptors.

We will get about 500 pages deep just to see a deal go down with another random team.

Save yourself the stress.

[JTB]

Well if Jones is the target this deal works but man offensively we’d need to be extremely creative!

The reason I don’t have a problem with taking Ingram back in the deal (even with a huge contract)…is because it doesn’t make sense to fix a big hole on your team (defense)…only to create another one! (Offense)

 

looking at the playoffs I’ve seen some good defenses in Orlando & Cavs for example but man those teams suffer badly offensively and they don’t have enough offensive firepower outside of their line star. You can’t rely on stops only on every possession.

 

id be ok with a deal like this but just pointing out we’d go back to having 1 creator unless Jalen takes another massive leap and is healthy. We know a Trae + Bogi backcourt is very good offensively and a great fit but not great or good defensively. Jalen and Herb will man the 3 & 4 and switch defensive matchups depending on the opponents I’d imagine.

Hunter will be the new 6th man if not traded.

[JTB]

9 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Ingram and the Pels will be the 2024 version of Siakam/Raptors.

We will get about 500 pages deep just to see a deal go down with another random team.

Save yourself the stress.

I do believe there’s real interest for the pelicans in acquiring Murray. Watching the playoffs it’s easy to see that their biggest need is a point guard.

perhaps we can’t get Ingram in a Murray trade but if we can herb jones that honestly works too. It just doesn’t look good on paper.

[KB21]

15 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Ingram and the Pels will be the 2024 version of Siakam/Raptors.

We will get about 500 pages deep just to see a deal go down with another random team.

Save yourself the stress.

The difference is, Siakam was actually worth acquiring.  Ingram isn't.  

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, JTB said:

I do believe there’s real interest for the pelicans in acquiring Murray. Watching the playoffs it’s easy to see that their biggest need is a point guard.

perhaps we can’t get Ingram in a Murray trade but if we can herb jones that honestly works too. It just doesn’t look good on paper.

Trae + Bogi/Jones works much better than Trae + DJM (Trae or DJM + Bogi worked fine last year).

 

14 minutes ago, JTB said:

Well if Jones is the target this deal works but man offensively we’d need to be extremely creative!

The reason I don’t have a problem with taking Ingram back in the deal (even with a huge contract)…is because it doesn’t make sense to fix a big hole on your team (defense)…only to create another one! (Offense)

I don't think offense would be a huge problem with Trae, Bogi, JJ, Hunter, Jones, OO, CC, Kobe, Daniels, Lottery Pick TBD, etc.  I think that lineup still produces pretty well offensively - especially if Jones can maintain anything close to the 42% he shot from 3 last year.

[JeffS17]

32 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Trading for Ingram would absolutely be a sucker move and one where you are making a deal just to make a deal.  

I don't know....  NO isn't willing to pay him a max -- is anyone else?  There's definitely an extension salary range that would make this deal attractive.  Probably somewhere in the $30-35M per year range.  Ingram fit on this squad is much better than DJ and I really believe Quin could elevate his game immensely if Ingram buys into Quin's philosophies.

[theheroatl]

28 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Ingram and the Pels will be the 2024 version of Siakam/Raptors.

We will get about 500 pages deep just to see a deal go down with another random team.

Save yourself the stress.

Yet somehow I keep refreshing these pages all the way through it… 

 

It all depends on who the market players are.. with Siakam, the market was us Indy and Magic..

What’s the market for Ingram.

Edited May 6 by theheroatl

[AHF]

37 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I don't know....  NO isn't willing to pay him a max -- is anyone else?  There's definitely an extension salary range that would make this deal attractive.  Probably somewhere in the $30-35M per year range.  Ingram fit on this squad is much better than DJ and I really believe Quin could elevate his game immensely if Ingram buys into Quin's philosophies.

How many teams could give him that much money?  That is part of the risk if he is upset that Atlanta won't max him.  I don't love Ingram's fit but I like it clearly better than DJM (basically I'm thinking of him as being a bigger DJM which is important but not ideal).

[NekiEcko]

3 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Which is why our front office declined those offers.  Yet people here still criticize them for not making enough moves, when these are the types of moves that have been available to us.  I think most of this board is still in somewhat of a denial of how little we could have done the past two years due to Schlenks overpays. Those extension overpays that had long-term ramifications and we're still unwinding them.  We're going to be in such a better place when Clint is off the books, and we get deeper into Hunters extension (his pay relative to the total cap gets smaller every year), particularly knowing that Landry has not made these same mistakes and has been signing reasonable deals.

It's not that we aren't active, but as a tax-paying team, we're still struggling to advance beyond the play-in tournament. Indeed, Clint's contract is expiring and Hunter's extension is decreasing, but will this transform us into a top-six playoff team or even an Eastern Conference Finals contender? Currently, the answer is definitively no, and there's no simple solution, especially with the Spurs acquiring our next two draft picks plus a pick swap. We must act now, and perhaps we should take a page from the Falcons' playbook: just go for it and see what unfolds.

Edited May 6 by NekiEcko

[shakes]

Ingram sucks, he's the definition of a stat stuffing bum.   And I'm not even holding it against him that he was born with Resting Stoned Face.

[JeffS17]

9 minutes ago, NekiEcko said:

It's not that we aren't active, but as a tax-paying team, we're still struggling to advance beyond the play-in tournament. Indeed, Clint's contract is expiring and Hunter's extension is decreasing, but will this transform us into a top-six playoff team or even an Eastern Conference Finals contender? Currently, the answer is definitively no, and there's no simple solution, especially with the Spurs acquiring our next two draft picks plus a pick swap. We must act now, and perhaps we should take a page from the Falcons' playbook: just go for it and see what unfolds.

We aren't a tax paying team* to much of this forums displeasure.  We do not have immensely valuable trade assets right now, outside of Murray, JJ, and maybe Bufkin.  Our improvement is going to come from development, no matter if we stay the course with this roster OR if we make trades, because trades will be for better fit, not talent upgrades.  Trading for someone like Ingram (or Siakam) is precisely the move we need to make as playing with Trae would certainly bolster their value.  There is no home run trade this team can make to contend because we don't have the assets for it, so we need to make savvy incremental moves, sign reasonable/team friendly extensions, and continue developing players to outplay those reasonable/team friendly contracts, which will make them more valuable to us and for trades.  We don't even have the talent to just pay to win right now, so going into the luxury doesn't change the fact we need better, more concentrated talent in our best 3-5 players.

[AHF]

31 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Our improvement is going to come from development, no matter if we stay the course with this roster OR if we make trades, because trades will be for better fit, not talent upgrades. 

I really do think that improved fit will result in improved performance as well.  I think you see this in the numbers with Trae/Bogi and DJM/Bogi vs Trae/DJM.