It's time for a grown man talk about Siakim....

[JayBirdHawk]

9 minutes ago, sillent said:

Not considering chemistry and just going on talent BOL BOL would be my choice hands down. Someone who could go up against the Wemby's of the world lol

What's the Bol Bol fascination besides being long.

He shot 8% from 3 in his last 35 games or something crazy like that.

[AHF]

17 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

I tried finding a picture with Nique, Moses, and Theus but none exists....

Here is the best I've got:

http://www.mearsonlineauctions.com/ItemImages/000051/1e32da96-cafa-4571-b557-8d93344f332c_lg.jpeg

 

[Diesel]

The Moses, Theus and Nique experiment failed because nobody considered Chemistry.   Moses was not giving up his touches.   Nique was not giving up his touches... and nobody got the ball to Theus.   And Defense was not played. 

I want you all to think about the chemistry of bringing in a High usage, nonshooter who lives by downhill play into our team. 

I would rather take our chances with PG13.  At Least PG 13 can shoot.  Yeah, we have to worry about Injury.. but at least he can shoot.

[kg01]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What's the Bol Bol fascination besides being long.....

@Spud2nique?

Sorry, burd, has to be done. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

23 minutes ago, sillent said:

My question is what makes us think adding another ball dominant player that would make either him, Trae, Dejounte or all of them change their games in order to fit with each other work?

Wouldn't that push Trae out the door faster? Like @Peoriabird said if it's not for a Giannis or Jokic will it really be pushing us forward?

 

Absolutely not.  Siakam is not a selfish basketball player. Siakam is the type of player that actually could make Trae a lot more efficient.  And if people want Trae to play off the ball, you need a big who can facilitate and find shooters / cutters.  If Van Vleet and Siakam worked well together, Trae and Siakam would be a dynamic duo.

If anything, it might disgruntle DJ, if he's deemed to be the "3rd wheel".  He may not want that role, regardless of how successful the team is.  Chris Bosh solidified his Hall of Fame status by coming to Miami, and being that 3rd guy, despite having all of the tools to be a #1 scorer like he was in Toronto.

A passing big in our frontcourt is already an element that we see in JJ.  If Siakam gave us that too, there's no telling what our offense could look like, especially in the 4th quarter of games, where we struggled at.

 

28 minutes ago, sillent said:

Did Dejounte push us forward or show us that chemistry is just as important as talent. We've lost a piece of our old core each yr now with the latest being JC (understandably) and Huerter (again understandably) because of how ownership operates.

We got DJ based on his son playing GM and it looked good and worth it possibly on paper. Besides the "name" it's hard to validate even on paper that a Siakim move would look good with us and honestly we're a yr or 2 too late to make an impactful move for him especially at the current asking price.

DJ made us a more versatile team with how we can attack an opponent.  But he wasn't the problem with the team.  The lack of production we were getting from the frontcourt was killing us.  And we weren't a good defensive team at all.  And we still were notorious for giving up way too many defensive rebounds.

Acquiring DJ was a reactionary move for what the Heat did to Trae in that playoff series.  They loaded up on him and we didn't have guys in the backcourt that could make them pay.  DJ at least gave us that threat.  And despite the Game 5 suspension for bumping the ref, he had a very good series vs the Celtics.

32 minutes ago, sillent said:

I don't get how some don't get that we'd be gambling our future on this yr making that move and if it doesn't work we risk losing all 3 of our stars in one yr ala Nets... If egos aren't fed properly and the chemistry is a struggle (which it will be coming into the door seeing as Siakim wants to stay in (TOR) and get his max.

It's bubbling water waiting to boil over and so many are to eager to empty the pot with no regards of the repercussions that could follow.

Of course it's a gamble.  That's why I say the Hawks need to pick one of the kids ( or THE KID ) that they think has the most potential.  If they want to play more of the kids, then move the people who we know aren't going to improve, and let the kids learn on the fly.

When we do this though, expectations go out the window.  This is also an indication to Trae that we're more concerned about young player development, than actually taking steps to build a championship team.

 

46 minutes ago, sillent said:

I'm all for improving the team. The 1st way to do that is to get a true evaluation of what we already have and then fill in the holes with the correct pieces. 

If you have a game changer like a Giannis, Jokic or guys that can truly change a franchise then of course you have to throw your chips in like Toronto did when they got Kawhi. Even then just like Kawhi there's no guarantee that it will last but atleast you know it was worth it. 

If we were getting a good player that would fit better like an AD or KAT I would even go for it because the roles are more defined and don't conflict with the other stars on the team. Why would I bring in another ball dominant player on a team that has 2 stars that are ball dominant by nature and position

 

Because it makes you even harder to guard.  Having another guy in a game that can take his man off the dribble can even make the lives of spot up shooters better.  The ball handler draws all of the attention, while the shooter is left wide open to make shots.  And if the ball handler can take his man one on one, that's an option as well. 

This is a different conversation if Siakam was a totally selfish player, but he's not.  His ability to rebound and immediately push the ball in transition is something that very few bigs in the NBA can do.  I believe he's 2nd in assists at the PF position, behind Draymond Green.

 

 

1 hour ago, sillent said:

How could I expect that chemistry to magically be great within a year and at what cost am I willing to take such a risk? We have to ask ourselves these questions and be comfortable with pivoting if the answers and outlook don't project the best possible results.

 

Star players sometimes make it work.  It's not a guarantee.  Minnesota in 2004 comes to mind.  KG is struggling to get out of the 1st round, with a young team around him.  Minnesota brings in 2 malcontent vets in Latrell Spreewell and Sam Cassell, to see if they would be better complimentary players to KG.  They immediately gel, despite one of their young players ( Wally Szczerbiak ) being hurt most of the year.  Like Trae Young vs Milwaukee, the T-Wolves were a Sam Cassell pulled groin away from possibly knocking out the then 3-time defending champ Lakers.

Most recently, the trade the Lakers did to obtain AD, by trading Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, and Josh Hart to New Orleans, was a great example of adding a player who had done nothing on his own, and trading your young core to bring him in to help your superstar.  They immediately win the NBA Championship after missing the playoffs 6 straight years.

1 hour ago, sillent said:

All I know is build your core correctly you have potential for a dynasty. Chase after mediocre or even great stars that aren't necessarily game changers and you could find yourself more often than not doing that every year until we're eventually back in the same boat we originally started which is tearing everything down and rebuilding thru the draft. 

You think we're building correctly? We will see, I guess.

I thought we were building correctly too, 4 years ago.

1 hour ago, sillent said:

I don't know if the fan in me can go thru that process again because of us trying to skip steps without looking at the pros and cons. If it was Wemby I'd do it just because of his game changing qualities. Siakim isn't a game changer. He's a good player just like DeRozan was a good player. Kawhi was the game changer. That's the difference between being worth it and taking an unnecessary gamble.

Doing something for the sake of doing something leaves us with Sharife Abdul Rahim (good/great player) vs having a Pau Gasol (game changer)

 

Kawhi wins nothing without Siakam stepping up and becoming the #2 guy on the Raptors, even surpassing Lowry.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.  I've presented more than enough evidence on my side ot show what Siakam can do. 

Wrong or right, I think you guys are just too attached to the kids.  I went though that before with the "Highlight Factory" of JJ - Josh - Al - Marvin.  At least those 4 played together 3 - 6 years before they were broken up.  They got a chance to build the right way, but they just weren't talented enough across the board.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

46 minutes ago, sillent said:

Not considering chemistry and just going on talent BOL BOL would be my choice hands down. Someone who could go up against the Wemby's of the world lol

 

Why do you think Bol Bol isn't sticking on a team, or given a legit chance to show what his value is?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

44 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What's the Bol Bol fascination besides being long.

He shot 8% from 3 in his last 35 games or something crazy like that.

 

Some people may not be fans of you, but you know your isht. 

I didn't know he was that terrible in the 2nd half of the season.

 

 

What did @Final_quest say?  

Don't trust Hawksquawk on a player that everyone likes?   LOL.

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Some people may not be fans of you, but you know your isht. 

 

 

 

me reading that a second time....

[sillent]

54 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

What's the Bol Bol fascination besides being long.

He shot 8% from 3 in his last 35 games or something crazy like that.

Honestly I wanted to draft him with the 10 pick before I knew Cam. I definitely wanted him over Bruno but just like the fascination with Wemby he's a 7ftr with guard and wing like skills that can do it all on offense and defense.

Does he have the heart, passion and mentals do develop properly and be who he should? Probably not which is why we and most teams probably passed but the skills are there and rare for a guy his size.

I'm almost sure if Manute Bol was still around to raise/groom him a little more he would be more of a polished individual as well as have that ridiculous skillset to go with his size.

Same as Cam Reddish though you can have all the skills and talent but if you don't have the mentals to play the game within the game alot of times you will get overlooked and passed by no matter if you're a greater talent.

[sillent]

31 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Absolutely not.  Siakam is not a selfish basketball player. Siakam is the type of player that actually could make Trae a lot more efficient.  And if people want Trae to play off the ball, you need a big who can facilitate and find shooters / cutters.  If Van Vleet and Siakam worked well together, Trae and Siakam would be a dynamic duo.

If anything, it might disgruntle DJ, if he's deemed to be the "3rd wheel".  He may not want that role, regardless of how successful the team is.  Chris Bosh solidified his Hall of Fame status by coming to Miami, and being that 3rd guy, despite having all of the tools to be a #1 scorer like he was in Toronto.

A passing big in our frontcourt is already an element that we see in JJ.  If Siakam gave us that too, there's no telling what our offense could look like, especially in the 4th quarter of games, where we struggled at.

 

DJ made us a more versatile team with how we can attack an opponent.  But he wasn't the problem with the team.  The lack of production we were getting from the frontcourt was killing us.  And we weren't a good defensive team at all.  And we still were notorious for giving up way too many defensive rebounds.

Acquiring DJ was a reactionary move for what the Heat did to Trae in that playoff series.  They loaded up on him and we didn't have guys in the backcourt that could make them pay.  DJ at least gave us that threat.  And despite the Game 5 suspension for bumping the ref, he had a very good series vs the Celtics.

Of course it's a gamble.  That's why I say the Hawks need to pick one of the kids ( or THE KID ) that they think has the most potential.  If they want to play more of the kids, then move the people who we know aren't going to improve, and let the kids learn on the fly.

When we do this though, expectations go out the window.  This is also an indication to Trae that we're more concerned about young player development, than actually taking steps to build a championship team.

 

 

Because it makes you even harder to guard.  Having another guy in a game that can take his man off the dribble can even make the lives of spot up shooters better.  The ball handler draws all of the attention, while the shooter is left wide open to make shots.  And if the ball handler can take his man one on one, that's an option as well. 

This is a different conversation if Siakam was a totally selfish player, but he's not.  His ability to rebound and immediately push the ball in transition is something that very few bigs in the NBA can do.  I believe he's 2nd in assists at the PF position, behind Draymond Green.

 

 

 

Star players sometimes make it work.  It's not a guarantee.  Minnesota in 2004 comes to mind.  KG is struggling to get out of the 1st round, with a young team around him.  Minnesota brings in 2 malcontent vets in Latrell Spreewell and Sam Cassell, to see if they would be better complimentary players to KG.  They immediately gel, despite one of their young players ( Wally Szczerbiak ) being hurt most of the year.  Like Trae Young vs Milwaukee, the T-Wolves were a Sam Cassell pulled groin away from possibly knocking out the then 3-time defending champ Lakers.

Most recently, the trade the Lakers did to obtain AD, by trading Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, and Josh Hart to New Orleans, was a great example of adding a player who had done nothing on his own, and trading your young core to bring him in to help your superstar.  They immediately win the NBA Championship after missing the playoffs 6 straight years.

You think we're building correctly? We will see, I guess.

I thought we were building correctly too, 4 years ago.

 

Kawhi wins nothing without Siakam stepping up and becoming the #2 guy on the Raptors, even surpassing Lowry.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.  I've presented more than enough evidence on my side ot show what Siakam can do. 

Wrong or right, I think you guys are just too attached to the kids.  I went though that before with the "Highlight Factory" of JJ - Josh - Al - Marvin.  At least those 4 played together 3 - 6 years before they were broken up.  They got a chance to build the right way, but they just weren't talented enough across the board.

I'll let you look at this down the road and see if you're not making my points. I agree with your 3rd paragraph completely that a passing big definitely does help our team overall. I believe that's why we got guys like Mo Gueye and Guruba so we can be versatile in that way. I believe Siakim could be a good mentor for them even as a rental but at what cost?

Again if we trade DJ for Siakim it makes more sense. Other than that it looks like what it is if we fall to Toronto asking price which is desperation.

Desperation moves rarely ever pan out like expected. I've been watching the team since Nique and I seen us make many desperation moves that cost us more than help us.

From Nique to a younger Danny Manning (a rental at that), to the gambles of trading Smitty for Isaiah Rider and Jim Jackson (looked good on paper). Shareef for Pau Gasol, Joe Johnson and his contract for Boris Diaw. The last one actually panned out but cost us Chris Paul since we told Joe he could be our 6'7/6'8 PG. 

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith would've been nasty though. Especially if we were still able to add Horford but we handicapped ourselves the yr before with our promises and our "different" building strategies instead of going with what made basketball sense. Sometimes it's the after affect of the moves we make and the things we don't see.

I'm even cool if we gave up 2 players out of Clint, Hunter and DJ who are all good players themselves for a guy like Siakim (2nd tier Joe Johnson type at best). 

Any more than that and we're shorting ourselves and definitely making a desperate move that reminds me of the Shareef Abdul Rahim trade for the #3 pick Pau Gasol. 

Shareef was a good/great player for us. Pau Gasol was a game changer that actually gave the Grizzlies their 1st real taste of relevancy. 

Y'all are fighting over Siakim at any cost as if he were Giannis or Jokic. I would take him under certain stipulations. That's a big difference and could impact us in a major way if we put too many chips on the table.

Desperation is rarely ever a formula for success and to give away our young pieces for an aging vet or all star at best is no doubt a desperate move. Especially when he wouldn't be considered a perfect slotted piece like an AD or KAT would and they two are in a higher tier than Siakim.

Siakim fit well in Toronto's system. We honestly don't know if he's more of a star because he's a guy that thrived in that system or if he will actually propel us. JC may be a perfect example because I'm sure he's going to thrive a lot better in the Jazz system than he has in ours and then people are really going to go crazy that we just gave him away.

 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

    

Not Considering Chemistry.... Recipe for Success!!!

I tried finding a picture with Nique, Moses, and Theus but none exists....

Nique didn’t wanna be in this photo but he’s one of the two of them. I think they killed our chemistry .

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Nique didn’t wanna be in this photo but he’s one of the two of them. I think they killed our chemistry .

YOU DA MAN!!!

It's funny to think about it but this was our attempt to answer Boston and LAL's Big Three.

It looked damn good on paper... but in reality... not enough balls to go around (pause). 

 

[Diesel]

I want to make this a Hawks challenge pinned to the top of the board...

Scavenger Hunt... 

Somebody find 1 picture with Nique, Moses and Theus together. 

 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

not enough balls to go around (pause). 

no doubt. I remember even as a kid I hated the Theus signing. I thought he was a “ball hog”. I did like Moses a lot mainly because from 85-92 I was looking for a center for us because I HATED Koncak. 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Scavenger Hunt... 

Somebody find 1 picture with Nique, Moses and Theus together. 

 

: Can it be an in game action shot on the court? If so I’ll bust out my VHS tapes. Pause and take a pic of all 3 NOT running back on D  

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

no doubt. I remember even as a kid I hated the Theus signing. I thought he was a “ball hog”. I did like Moses a lot mainly because from 85-92 I was looking for a center for us because I HATED Koncak. 

I didn't have thoughts on Theus.  I wasn't a regular Bull watcher.   I did have thoughts on Moses and like you I was thinking Philly Legend Moses with Nique. 

Sadly.. Koncak was more valuable than Statpadding Moses in those years. 

 

[sillent]

57 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Some people may not be fans of you, but you know your isht. 

I didn't know he was that terrible in the 2nd half of the season.

 

 

What did @Final_quest say?  

Don't trust Hawksquawk on a player that everyone likes?   LOL.

This ^^^ I've seen y'all beg for guys like Evan Turner and the guy y'all wanted over Hunter that couldn't hang with last seasons team for a full season. Jarrett Culver I think was his name.

Point is I'm glad a lot of y'all aren't our GM lol no offense but I don't trust alot of the talent evaluation around here.

Truth be told I'm guilty of liking talent over fit and mentals on occasions which has me rooting for guys like Josh Smith, Cam Reddish and Bol Bol but many of the factors outside of their talent I don't have access to see/know until later anyway (my excuse).

I'll go on record to say talent like Trae (of course) OO, JJ, AJ and all 3 of our rookies Kobe, Mo and Seth aren't easy finds. They actually have the mentals, heart and passion to go along with their talent. It would not be wise to just give that away.

DJ is a rare talent as well of course but I do think he can be replaced by Kobe and he's actually more in the mold of the talent I like (Smooth, Cam,Bol) but not necessarily always good for the team. 

DJ is a rare case where he atleast does have the mentals to play the game within the game though but that can be thanked by the NBA system that raised him.

I also think you need a guy like Bey on the squad and the humbling he got from Detroit makes him a perfect fit.

Honestly I like our entire team and think we can look alot different under our new system if we actually give a little more time to see what we actually have.

Right now to me we have the perfect ingredients for a special mix but adding/subtracting too many pieces can change the dish completely. That's cool if it's necessary but let's put it in the oven 1st and see how it turns out.

Last yr most teams made moves and Miami stood pat and I was like no way they are even as good as the yr before when they beat us. Turns out they let it marinate and because of it were even better.

 

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Koncak was more valuable than Statpadding Moses in those years. 

That’s questionable.  

[sillent]

15 minutes ago, Diesel said:

YOU DA MAN!!!

It's funny to think about it but this was our attempt to answer Boston and LAL's Big Three.

It looked damn good on paper... but in reality... not enough balls to go around (pause). 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Nique didn’t wanna be in this photo but he’s one of the two of them. I think they killed our chemistry .

At a quick glance/scroll I thought someone was trolling Kyle Korver with that Reggie Theus pic

[AHF]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Some people may not be fans of you, but you know your isht.