It's time for a grown man talk about Siakim....

[AtLaS]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

There is no way that AJ - JJ - OO is a better trio from a potential standpoint than Horford - Smith - Marvin were.  Heck, we watched AJ struggle mightily in the 2nd half of the season where he hit the rookie wall.  JJ played better as the year went on, and still couldn't get legit rotation minutes.  OO has improved, but no one can definitely say that he's better than Capela at this moment.

These kids are not generational talents. Because of that, they can easily be replaced.  It's not a coincidence that in 2021 when we made our playoff run, we made it basically without "Wingstop" ( Hunter and Reddish ). 

I'm rooting for our current crop of kids more than anyone.  I said back in January when we were struggling, that Nate's only chance was to start playing the kids more.  He didn't do it ( with JJ ) and it got him fired.

Quin seems to love JJ, but the jury may still be out on AJ in his eyes.  So it will be interesting to see what his role is.

 

Fans are fooling themselves if they think that all 4 of those guys are going to be impact players.  We might even have to get rid of Bogi, just to free up playing time for AJ.  Bufkin isn't a true PG, more like a combo guard, so we might even have an issue at that spot.

Here are the NBADraft.net comparisons for each player

• Kobe Bufkin ....................... Jordan Poole
• AJ Griffin ............................ Jamal Mashburn/Robert Covington
• Jalen Johnson .................... Stephen Jackson/TJ Warren
• Oneyka Okongwu .............. John Collins/Montrezl Harrell

Agree or disagree?

If you disagree, name the NBA comparisons for each player as you see them.

Jalen Johnson's comparison is Stephen Jackson and TJ Warren seem way off to me.  Jackson was more like a G/F to me and TJ Warren doesn't pass at all.   I think Jalen is more like a Lamar Odom type.

In what universe is OO like Harrell?  I think Bam is a much better comparison.  Not saying OO will get THAT good but he has the potential.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by AtLaS

[Atlantaholic]

44 minutes ago, AtLaS said:

Jalen Johnson's comparison is Stephen Jackson and TJ Warren seem way off to me.  Jackson was more like a G/F to me and TJ Warren doesn't pass at all.   I think Jalen is more like a Lamar Odom type.

In what universe is OO like Harrell?  I think Bam is a much better comparison.  Not saying OO will get THAT good but he has the potential.  

I think Bam is more off base than Harrell. Outside of size and defense not sure how they are similar. Offensively they couldn't be more different. OO gets around 70%  of his production at the rim, Bam has always been much more of a mid range shooter / short range floater scorer, even very early on in his career. AT this stage the difference in shooting splits by distance is staggeringly different with OO shooting 61% of his shots at the rim vs Bam at 29%. On top of this Bam always was a much, much better passer and by his third season he was also an infinitely better ball handler than OO will ever likely be. 

Honestly not sure who I'd compare OO too, he is a unique player (so is Bam). I think he will always be primary a rim runner and put-back type of guy offensively, though if he can continue to work on his mid-range jumper and occasional 3pt set shot it'll add a couple of PPG to his game. I think the most intriguing thing about OO is the defensive potential, and that is higher than Bam's. The one drawback is his size, and it's something that Bam occassionally struggles with as well. So in that regard they are simialr. The key with OO is which lineups we can use that mitigate his lack of size. 

[Gray Mule]

Just been nozin' arount on the Toronto RealGM board.  They seem to believe they will recieve Murray, AJ Griffin and OO in their trade of Siakam.  They are mostly very high on all three.  Murray to replace Fred, OO to be their all star center and AJ Griffin to start at SF and be their bomber from  three!

Hawks are giving them three very good starters for a one year rental..  Works great for them.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Gray Mule

[ABH]

Just now, Gray Mule said:

Just been nozin' arount on the Toronto RealGM board.  They seem to beelieve they will recieve Murray, AJ Griffin and OO in their trade of Siakam.  They are mostly very high on all three.  Murray to replace Fred, OO to be their all star center and AJ Griffin to start at SF and be their bomber from  three!

Hwks are giving them three very good starters for a one year rental..  Works great for them.

Don't think that will happen

[theheroatl]

1 minute ago, Gray Mule said:

Just been nozin' arount on the Toronto RealGM board.  They seem to believe they will recieve Murray, AJ Griffin and OO in their trade of Siakam.  They are mostly very high on all three.  Murray to replace Fred, OO to be their all star center and AJ Griffin to start at SF and be their bomber from  three!

Hawks are giving them three very good starters for a one year rental..  Works great for them.

Think of it this way, that is the Raptors side best case scenario.

 

What is the Hawks best case? Capela and Hunter for Siakam.

 

Split both those, Hunter and some young players.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

So they have MVP level in Jokic . . All-Star level in Murray . . sniper shooter in Porter Jr . . and Gordon was the #4 pick in the draft and makes the perfect 4 for Jokic with his athleticism.

So we have MVP level in Trae... All-Star Level in Murray...  Sniper/Shooter in AJ, Bogi, and Bey.   And JJ was a very good pick that was forgotten about in his draft. 

 

[Diesel]

@TheNorthCydeRises

The problem is the same and you refuse to look at it. 

Siakam is not KD.  If this were a trade for KD, I would be right there with you... arguing that we don't have to wait on the development of these "kids". 

But Siakam is not KD.   He's a HIGH USAGE.. Low TS% player.   He gets most of his points by going down hill.   Moreover, he's not going to sign an extension with Atlanta because it BEHOOVES him to go into FAcy.   IN FAcy, we can pay him the most but do we really want to beat out everybody else to have a HIGH USAGE.. LOW TS% player. 

You keep showing the video of 1 good game.   ANYBODY Can Have 1 good game.  And Any High USAGE player can make an allstar team. 

But Let's Propose for you...

Somehow we send out CC, Hunter, and JJ and we get back Siakam....

How much Usage do you think Siakam will get?  Do you think he will be a feature scorer?

So with Him, OO, and DJ all trying to score on the inside...  Who will suffer?  Let's say OO suffers...  But more importantly, OO has to take his man out of the paint so that Siakam can score when he's not downhill. 

 If we get Siakam in the trade I proposed, I will guess that his statline will be:

18,  9.5, 3  on  46% shooting at age 30...

Do you want to pay 50 Million Dollars for whatever that turns into at age 34?

He only gets 24 ppg now because he's HIGH USAGE. 

He doesn't open the floor because he can't shoot from distance. 

He can be Hack-a-shacked because he's not a great FT shooter. 

What part of this is worth upwards of 40 million?

1	Stephen Curry, PG	Golden State Warriors	$51,915,615
2	Kevin Durant, PF	Phoenix Suns	$47,649,433
3	Joel Embiid, C	Philadelphia 76ers	$46,900,000
4	LeBron James, SF	Los Angeles Lakers	$46,900,000
5	Nikola Jokic, C	Denver Nuggets	$46,900,000
6	Bradley Beal, SG	Phoenix Suns	$46,741,590
7	Giannis Antetokounmpo, PF	Milwaukee Bucks	$45,640,165
8	Damian Lillard, PG	Portland Trail Blazers	$45,640,084
9	Kawhi Leonard, SF	LA Clippers	$45,640,084
10	Paul George, F	LA Clippers	$45,640,084
RK	NAME	TEAM	SALARY
11	Jimmy Butler, SF	Miami Heat	$45,183,960
12	Klay Thompson, SG	Golden State Warriors	$43,219,440
13	Rudy Gobert, C	Minnesota Timberwolves	$41,000,000
14	Anthony Davis, PF	Los Angeles Lakers	$40,600,080
15	Luka Doncic, PG	Dallas Mavericks	$40,064,220
16	Zach LaVine, SG	Chicago Bulls	$40,064,220
17	Trae Young, PG	Atlanta Hawks	$40,064,220
18	Tobias Harris, PF	Philadelphia 76ers	$39,270,150
19	Pascal Siakam, PF	Toronto Raptors	$37,893,408
20	Ben Simmons, PG	Brooklyn Nets	$37,893,408

 

If you were talking about KD or Lebron or even Davis... I would be on board with you.  I would risk the future of our franchise for a shot at the chip because I believe that they could get us there.    But Siakam?

Funny thing.. on this list..  Only Luka, Beal, and Siakam missed the playoffs. 

 

 

 

[Gray Mule]

Just over at Toronto RealGM board.  Their biggest complaint:  Siakam does not shoot the ball well from deep.  What?  Do we really need a player who isn't a top free throw shooter and can't hit a ton of threes?

[Atlantaholic]

3 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Just over at Toronto RealGM board.  Their biggest complaint:  Siakam does not shoot the ball well from deep.  What?  Do we really need a player who isn't a top free throw shooter and can't hit a ton of threes?

Yup, that's not ideal. Counterpoint he did average almost 6 assists last year, not a lot of open looks for him last season. Just like DJM getting a bunch of better looks from deep and seeing his 3pt shooting improve this year we can hopefully see somethign like that with Siakam, more open looks less double teams. I don't know.... I don't LOVE Siakam, but he would still be the best player we've ever had playing next to Trae Young, and I think with Quinn he could have his best seasons with us. Like I said if we had the luxury of flipping DJM and spare parts of Siakam and more expensive spare parts to match salaries I would much rather pay Siakam on our team than I would Murray. 

[Hawkish]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

Just been nozin' arount on the Toronto RealGM board.  They seem to believe they will recieve Murray, AJ Griffin and OO in their trade of Siakam.  They are mostly very high on all three.  Murray to replace Fred, OO to be their all star center and AJ Griffin to start at SF and be their bomber from  three!

Hawks are giving them three very good starters for a one year rental..  Works great for them.

Wait— OO to be their All Star center?  So they think that we should trade DJ, Griffin, and an All Star center for Siakam?

[Diesel]

17 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Yup, that's not ideal. Counterpoint he did average almost 6 assists last year, not a lot of open looks for him last season. Just like DJM getting a bunch of better looks from deep and seeing his 3pt shooting improve this year we can hopefully see somethign like that with Siakam, more open looks less double teams. I don't know.... I don't LOVE Siakam, but he would still be the best player we've ever had playing next to Trae Young, and I think with Quinn he could have his best seasons with us. Like I said if we had the luxury of flipping DJM and spare parts of Siakam and more expensive spare parts to match salaries I would much rather pay Siakam on our team than I would Murray. 

That statement is true ... in a vacuum.  He would have just as many if not more fit issues. 

Somebody keep saying where is the spacing?

Siakam does one thing.  Tries to get downhill.   If that's not there, he passes or he shoots a long jumper.  He's not a good shooter.  DJM has a better midrange game.   

Toronto made Siakam look good with turnovers and breaks... that allowed him to get down hill... especially when they had Kawhi.  We would rather have Murray on the team so that he can help create turnovers.. because in the halfcourt set, Siakam will struggle. 

He may back out and get a running start... to try to score.  or he may back out and try to make a pass.   However, we have Trae. Siakam won't have the same kind of Usage he got in Toronto so his stats would be lower. 

Do we trade our future for that?  For one year guaranteed and nothing guaranteed after that. 

 

 

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, Hawkish said:

Wait— OO to be their All Star center?  So they think that we should trade DJ, Griffin, and an All Star center for Siakam?

The possibilities are these:

DJ + Hunter. 

DJ + AJ + JJ

Hunter + OO 

Hunter + AJ + JJ 

DJ  + CC

CC + AJ + JJ

Any trade with Bufkin would have to wait 30 days but Bufkin can replace AJ or JJ. 

or

OO + RG + JJ + Picks

 

[Gray Mule]

2 minutes ago, Hawkish said:

Wait— OO to be their All Star center?  So they think that we should trade DJ, Griffin, and an All Star center for Siakam?

Yep.  They believe 00 has the potential of being the MVP player in the NBA.  He , in their world, is really, really great and is being held back by Capela.  They are really impressed with his wing span and they have watched him shoot the three ball and this all adds up for them.  Now, this wasn't all their posters but certainly some of them.

[Hawkish]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The possibilities are these:

DJ + Hunter. 

DJ + AJ + JJ

Hunter + OO 

Hunter + AJ + JJ 

DJ  + CC

CC + AJ + JJ

Any trade with Bufkin would have to wait 30 days but Bufkin can replace AJ or JJ. 

or

OO + RG + JJ + Picks

 

The option is Hunter + Capela.  Take it or leave it 

[Hawkish]

8 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Yep.  They believe 00 has the potential of being the MVP player in the NBA.  He , in their world, is really, really great and is being held back by Capela.  They are really impressed with his wing span and they have watched him shoot the three ball and this all adds up for them.  Now, this wasn't all their posters but certainly some of them.

“He’s great on our team, but we would need more than him from your team.”  The ignorance (or arrogance?) is thick.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by Hawkish

[macdaddy]

Throw away Siakam's first 2 seasons and he's shot 34% from 3 for his career.  This is the same or marginally worse than Trae, DJ, Hunter, and JC.   

[sillent]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Siakam is a 2 time All-NBA level player at the PF position. 

He's a top 5 player at his position at least.  And he's a top 25 player in the NBA.

That is not hyperbole.  That is a FACT.

 

 

From this example I see inflated numbers from a game that had to go into overtime and I'm not sure if it even lead to a win.

Most importantly I see what I thought/knew about Siakim which is a big that needs the ball in his hands alot.

Pa

ir that with guards that are heavy ball dominant and I see 3 good players taking turns with getting theirs but not a good team. 

Out of 53mins I barely saw one defensive highlight from Siakim and overall he's initiating the plays for catch and shoot players not for players who would be able to create plays for themselves and others.

Some players look better in the right system. We struggled last yr getting the ball out of Trae and DJ's hands because they weren't comfortable not running the show. Now tripling down is the way?

Not saying it can't work but right now it's a hard visual and for the price it may cost now and in the future it just doesn't seem worth it.

If I saw those same highlights that included a beast/monster on the defensive end I might change my tone but for his skill and size I don't see the extra edge that it would give us having 3 ball dominant players who aren't as focused on defense as they can be or should. Especially when the offense evolves around them. 

Who's going to take the step back and would that be healthy for that players ego and the team overall? To have 2 rentals at this point that will both be playing for contracts sounds like ego issues waiting to happen down the road.

Either that or Trae eventually getting pushed out and like someone said Danny Manning all over again. Stars/Superstars always give a team an extra edge. All stars can have one to a few good seasons.

This isn't just a trade and it's done situation. This is a situation that will effect us now and in the immediate future as well as possible yrs to come based on this decision and that's a lot to put on a new front office that has been making great moves so far. Just saying I'd be cautious about pushing the button too far before I actually figure out who we are from the moves already made.

We may look similar but we will not be the same team that we were last yr regardless under the new coaching system.

[Wretch]

I'm not against a Siakam trade, but I'm not trying to mortgage coveted assets for him.  I wouldn't swap him straight up for DJ either, regardless of contract situations - at least DJ has expressed his desire to be here.  I also would be hesitant to roll out a big three of Siakam, DJ, and Trae...all three of these guys operate in the same space and 2/3's of the trio are lukewarm from distance. 

He is an interesting post option, which Trae could use...but I'm still more interested in long range shooting in the starting lineup and younger guys that can produce long term.  I'm not especially excited about how much mileage we'll get out of him at 29yo.  It's not a pass for me, but I'd consider Pascal only as a lease with a lower payment and an option to buy if it works out.

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I'm not against a Siakam trade, but I'm not trying to mortgage coveted assets for him.  I wouldn't swap him straight up for DJ either, regardless of contract situations - at least DJ has expressed his desire to be here.  I also would be hesitant to roll out a big three of Siakam, DJ, and Trae...all three of these guys operate in the same space and 2/3's of the trio are lukewarm from distance. 

He is an interesting post option, which Trae could use...but I'm still more interested in long range shooting in the starting lineup and younger guys that can produce long term.  Also I'm not especially excited about how much mileage we'll get out of him at 29yo.  t's not a pass for me, but I'd consider Pascal only as a lease with a lower payment and an option to buy if it works out.

This^^^^^

[sillent]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And let's stop this Christian Wood talk please.  Christian Wood is a true locker room cancer.

He didn't stick in Minnesota.  He was a bad influence on a young Houston squad.  And now even Dallas hasn't secured him to some sort of deal yet.

Do you know that Christian Wood is on his 7th NBA team in 8 years?  I bet none of you knew this.  That dude has been passed around more than a blunt at a house party.

Yes, he is a very talented NBA player.  No, none of his teammates go to bat for him, because he's an extremely selfish player.  Because of that, he ends up going to the bench instead of sticking as the starter.

As productive as he was in Dallas, even they sent him to the bench later in the year because his style of play wasn't helping them win games.

 

But don't take my word for it.

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2023/3/2/23621252/the-christian-wood-situation-keeps-getting-messier

Chauncey Billups was also a well traveled guy before he won a chip.

Ask Ish Smith how many teams he's been on before he won with Denver.

I agree chemistry does matter and the right fit is important which is the argument on Siakim and his playing style with the playing style of our star guards.

Still I won't ever judge a player for being well traveled (Cam Reddish) because all it takes is the right fit for them to show their true value.

Also if I had my choice Bol Bol would be the guy I bet on although I think Mo Bamba would be the safest choice and Christian Woods would be the most productive right away.

Honestly I'm good with staying pat atleast until we see what we truly have under our new coaching system but if we had to make a move I tossed those names out there to show there were cheaper alternatives.

All of those moves come with a high risk/high reward if they fit including Siakim but they would be less of a risk as far as finances/sacrifice goes. Again if Siakim wanted to come here it would be a different story but fighting for someone who doesn't feel the same in most relationships usually don't end up too well.

Someone's always left disappointed and unsatisfied.