It's time for a grown man talk about Siakim....

[Diesel]

41 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

It's impossible to imagine that members of this fan base would think that a guy on a team with Barnes, Vanvleet, OG that finished 10th in the east just last season, who has no interest in the Hawks, who is an inefficient scorer who no long plays defense, can't shoot, teammate can't wait to get rid of, who wants a supermax, who is at best a 1 year rental or by some miracle the Hawks convinced him to stay by paying him an average of $52 mil per season which is more than any superstar in the league including the 2 time and current MVP with the last year of his contract during his 35 birthday season...I just have a hard time believing that anybody wants to gut the Hawks for player who is no better than Murray. Didn't anyone learn anything from the Murray trade. It made the team worse period! Maybe I'm wrong.

I think Siakim is the biggest risk out. 

PG13, Ben Simmons, and Zion Williamson all have high upsides but injury prone.  KAT has something else... but Siakam is a guy who can come in... get 18/9.5/5 and we pay him 47 Million per for the next 5 years after that.  That's dangerous.  Because then we'd just be paying him to not leave. 

 

 

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, Peoriabird said:

It's impossible to imagine that members of this fan base would think that a guy on a team with Barnes, Vanvleet, OG that finished 10th in the east just last season, who has no interest in the Hawks, who is an inefficient scorer who no longer plays defense, can't shoot, teammate can't wait to get rid of, who wants a supermax, who is at best a 1 year rental or by some miracle the Hawks convinced him to stay by paying him an average of $52 mil per season which is more than any superstar in the league including the 2 time and current MVP with the last year of his contract during his 35 birthday season...I just have a hard time believing that anybody wants to gut the Hawks for player who is no better than Murray. Didn't anyone learn anything from the Murray trade. It made the team worse period! Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm against trading for him but your arguments are so over the top absurd that it's hard to even take you seriously.  I really, do you even read the nonsense that you type? 

[sillent]

53 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

It's impossible to imagine that members of this fan base would think that a guy on a team with Barnes, Vanvleet, OG that finished 10th in the east just last season, who has no interest in the Hawks, who is an inefficient scorer who no long plays defense, can't shoot, teammate can't wait to get rid of, who wants a supermax, who is at best a 1 year rental or by some miracle the Hawks convinced him to stay by paying him an average of $52 mil per season which is more than any superstar in the league including the 2 time and current MVP with the last year of his contract during his 35 birthday season...I just have a hard time believing that anybody wants to gut the Hawks for player who is no better than Murray. Didn't anyone learn anything from the Murray trade. It made the team worse period! Maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah I literally would only do this trade if it made sense and truly helped us or pushes us forward. I could easily rock with what we have under Quinn before making any major moves.

We have such a deep team and so many players now that some would have to be offloaded regardless of what we do.

I do not believe in a trio of Trae, DJ and Siakam

If we got Siakam DJ would have to go and we have his replacement in Kobe Bufkin.

I wouldn't trade none of OO, AJ, JJ or the rooks. Honestly I'd love to keep Bey as well.

Guruba would be an offer on the table as well as a few other pieces to make it work and to free up player space on our roster just in case we need to add another person from summer league or free agency if anyone worthwhile is left.

I'd be just as shrewd and stubborn as Toronto seeing that they may have the upper hand as far as what we want but we have the real leverage.

Toronto is a crumbling team trying to mend the pieces and trying to raise value by holding on to old memories. Yes they won a chip but that high came down as the Kawhi and Lowry factor dissipated. They couldn't even make the playoffs last year.

We on the other hand are already on an upward projection by having a new yr with a new system under Quinn and alot of weapons. 

Trae and DJ put up record Jordan/Pippen numbers in a so so yr together. Imagine a year where the chemistry is better and DJ is definitely playing out of his mind like most do in a contract yr. Speaking of chemistry all of our players will have more chemistry playing with one another with additions like Bey, JJ and AJ having room to get more pt. 

We freed up a log jam by trading JC for our younger hungry players that are getting better in front of our eyes for those paying attention.

Honestly the ball is in our court which is why I don't want us to get desperate about a trade or make one just for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses.

Miami showed us just how important chemistry is over looking good on paper and if we can agree on anything it should be that we have more and better talent than Miami had last yr. You can argue the results but you can't reasonably argue that.

If it works for us and in our favor and could truly push us forward than go for it. If it may get us an inch closer just to take 2 steps back down the road then what are we really doing?

So far the front office has shown plenty competency so I don't doubt that the trend will continue. Even if we do nothing I believe we will be the ones shocking the NBA this up and coming season even with a team as youthful as we are our players on court demeanor is well beyond their age.

Trae Young is only 24 just to put that into perspective but when you hear rookies looking at AJ as a young vet at only his 2nd yr in the league that speaks volumes because they themselves are coming in very poised.

Our young players just have a different fire in their eyes that you usually only see from the greats even if they aren't as talented as the greats. I saw it in Dwayne Wade his rookie yr, KD, LBJ and etc... I really think we've drafted well and after seeing what that fire and a great coach has done for Miami I'd love to see that with us having a more talented and bigger roster.

Everybody knew the main thing Miami was missing was height which is why I've been adamant about a 7ftr the last 4yrs now but either way with Clint and OO we've still been able to compensate and compete.

Unless the right pieces are traded for Siakam to truly push us over the edge I'd stick with what we got. Honestly guys like Guruba and Ty Ty Washington can be very serviceable in backup roles and I guess summer league will help us figure out who to keep or what to do with guys like Vit Kreiji , Tyrese Martin and those that unfortunately might be on the edge of actually making the team.

 

We can make the trade or we could stand pat. As long as we don't put too much on the table we're good either way. It's Toronto that really has the tough decisions to make and it's not our job to make it easier for them.

 

[REHawksFan]

3 minutes ago, sillent said:

We can make the trade or we could stand pat. As long as we don't put too much on the table we're good either way.

This is my thing.  I'm not against Siakam as a player in general, but as with everything, it's all about the cost.  I'm not willing to lose several young players just to acquire PS.  He's not that dude.  

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

I'm against trading for him but your arguments are so over the top absurd that it's hard to even take you seriously.  I really, do you even read the nonsense that you type? 

Strangely... I might have to wash my mouth out with soap later.. but

Peo's arguments are not that over the top. 

Compare what @Peoriabird is saying to what @KB21 is saying...

KB says that we should trade for Siakam.. and we will be able to pay him the most when he becomes a FA.

 

Thing is Siakam won't sign an extension.  He has said this... It makes plenty of sense.  If he hits FAcy, he can ask for a lot more money.   i.e. 30% of the team's cap. 

I roughly estimated that as 40 Million.. That's actually less than next year which will be 40.2.. but let's keep the regular numbers.

That's a 5 year 232 Million dollar deal because according to KB... the 5th year and the 8% is the carrot that we hold over Siakam that stops him from going to another team in FAcy.   Well, in that rendition of his salary...

4th year = 49.6 Million = 34 year old Siakam

5th year = 52.8 Million - 35 year old Siakam

Personally, I don't mind paying a top tier put us in the CHip contention player that much.  But Siakam is not a top tier put us in the CHip contention player.   I can easily see that in his first year, he will produce maybe 18, 9.5, and 5...

Why... because he generates most of his scores going down hill and from High Usage... but he's not a high efficiency scorer.   Moreover, playing with Trae and DJ... he won't get the touches he gets in Toronto.. Mainly because this is Trae's team.   It's no slight on Trae but Trae is not VanVleet. 

What will happen is that Trae will make him efficient in the PNR.. BUT... He won't  get enough touches to average 25 points with Trae and DJ and Bogi and everybody else still here.   If that were the case, then CLint or JC would have been a 20 ppg player at some point playing with Trae.

KB believes that Siakam will come here and average 25...  (he didn't see what happened to DJ..but anyway).  For that to happen, He would have to take 24 shots  and average 48% from the field.

Even in his best estimation... @TheNorthCydeRises said that Siakam would get 18 Shots per game.  He was trying to balance the shots that we would get.   And he had Trae shooting 16 and DJ shooting 14.. something like that.   That's terrible.

But 18 shots would put Saikam at somewhere around 17-18 points per game. 

Predict how many shots you think will go around...

For an example.. last year Trae shot 19 FG per game. 

DJ shot 17.8 FG per game.

JC shot 10 FG per game.  (and people complained about JC) 

CC shot 8.2 FG per game.

So.. Siakam comes in..  Even if he takes JC and CC's shots...  He's only shooting 18.2 FG per game... that's an average of about 17-18 ppg with 50% shooting from the field.   He can do that... even if he gets 54% from the field... that's 19.78 ppg...

Things will be just groovy... but...if he gives you 19.78/9.5/5 is that worth an averages of 47 Million per year?

 

 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

16 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

This is my thing.  I'm not against Siakam as a player in general, but as with everything, it's all about the cost.  I'm not willing to lose several young players just to acquire PS.  He's not that dude.  

The other thing is...  The possibility of him turning down our deal.

Let's say we send JJ, AJ,OO, and Hunter for Siakam...  We just decided that we want a CC/PS frontcourt. 

And PS gets here and finds out that he doesn't get the touches with Trae.  Doesn't like the city.  And wants to go somewhere else.  Maybe to play with Luka or Ball or run Orlando's situation or run with Victor in San antonio.

If he leaves...  we have been decimated. 

So like I said before.. if we trade for him, we will basically have to pay him to stay. 

 

 

[AHF]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:22 PM, Peoriabird said:

It's impossible to imagine that members of this fan base would think that a guy on a team with Barnes, Vanvleet, OG that finished 10th in the east just last season, who has no interest in the Hawks, who is an inefficient scorer who no longer plays defense, can't shoot, teammate can't wait to get rid of, who wants a supermax, who is at best a 1 year rental or by some miracle the Hawks convinced him to stay by paying him an average of $52 mil per season which is more than any superstar in the league including the 2 time and current MVP with the last year of his contract during his 35 birthday season...I just have a hard time believing that anybody wants to gut the Hawks for player who is no better than Murray. Didn't anyone learn anything from the Murray trade. It made the team worse period! Maybe I'm wrong.

I think you are 100% wrong in your claim that people who want Siakam want him because they think Trae Young is a diva who must be appeased despite knowing that it is the wrong move for all the reasons you just mentioned.  Your claim that trading for Siakam is a bad idea is perfectly reasonable (i.e., reasonable minds can differ).  Your claim that Squawkers all know that it is a bad move but want it to appease Trae's out of control ego is one heck of a claim against your fellow posters and Trae Young.

[JayBirdHawk]

On 7/4/2023 at 7:10 PM, Diesel said:

Gets everybody what they want.   We get Wood on a SNT for Clint......

Wood is a decent shot blocker.  A decent motor.   He can hit threes at about a 37-38% clip.   Put him at PF next to OO.   Again Hawk fans are happy because OO gets to start at Center. 

 

On 7/5/2023 at 8:57 AM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And let's stop this Christian Wood talk please. .....Do you know that Christian Wood is on his 7th NBA team in 8 years?  I bet none of you knew this.  That dude has been passed around more than a blunt at a house party.

they sent him to the bench later in the year because his style of play wasn't helping them win games.

 

But don't take my word for it.

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2023/3/2/23621252/the-christian-wood-situation-keeps-getting-messier

FYI....

 

 

[Peoriabird]

17 hours ago, AHF said:

I think you are 100% wrong in your claim that people who want Siakam want him because they think Trae Young is a diva who must be appeased despite knowing that it is the wrong move for all the reasons you just mentioned.  Your claim that trading for Siakam is a bad idea is perfectly reasonable (i.e., reasonable minds can differ).  Your claim that Squawkers all know that it is a bad move but want it to appease Trae's out of control ego is one heck of a claim against your fellow posters and Trae Young.

I didn't implicate Trae Young...You added that tidbit yourself but as far as the poster are concerned, a poster even admitted he was afraid of losing Young if something was not done.  Plus every other team's front office have agreed that it would be a bad idea to add Kat to any roster because they view it as a Blake Griffin to Detroit move.  In essence, I giving them the benefit of the doubt by saying that they are intelligent enough not think this is a good move from a strategic stand point but are willing to pull the trigger out of fear that Young is driving the interest behind the scene.

[Gray Mule]

Hawks have a terrible problem.  Why?  Because there are two very good players that we have our eye on which we believe would help us this season.  They are both too high priced.  KAT has a very long, super expensive contract.  Hawks would be paying him mega bucks for several years.  Siakam has a super high $$$ payroll hit for the upcoming season.  He says he don't want to come here and vows that, if we do trade for him, he will not re-sign with Atlanta.

Siakam would be a one season rental of a player who don't want to be here.  KAT would be nice for one season but his contract is much longer and we would be stuck with him.  You thought JC was hard to move.  Try moving KAT next summer with his massive contract.

Please!  Just say, "No thanks!"  Let them go and keep what we have right now.  I'd rather have the players we have right now than to trade them away for either of these two.  Surely this is not the only two players we would like to have.  Yet, we don't hear about them.  Don't be suprised if the Hawks make a trade and these two or not in the trade.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 7/6/2023 at 4:08 PM, Diesel said:

Even in his best estimation... @TheNorthCydeRises said that Siakam would get 18 Shots per game.  He was trying to balance the shots that we would get.   And he had Trae shooting 16 and DJ shooting 14.. something like that.   That's terrible.

But 18 shots would put Saikam at somewhere around 17-18 points per game. 

Predict how many shots you think will go around...

For an example.. last year Trae shot 19 FG per game. 

DJ shot 17.8 FG per game.

JC shot 10 FG per game.  (and people complained about JC) 

CC shot 8.2 FG per game.

So.. Siakam comes in..  Even if he takes JC and CC's shots...  He's only shooting 18.2 FG per game... that's an average of about 17-18 ppg with 50% shooting from the field.   He can do that... even if he gets 54% from the field... that's 19.78 ppg...

 

LOL . . this is horrible math Diesel.

Siakam averaged almost 7 FTA per game last season.  The "head down, dribble drive" that you try to knock him for so much, is hard to guard and has him going to the FT line a lot. 

• 77% FT at 5 makes per game = 5 points
• 52% FG on 2 point shots at 7.6 per game = 15 points
• 33% FG on 3 point shots at 1.3 per game = 3 points

5+ 15+ 3 = 23 points

For Siakam to average 25 ppg, all he would have to do is make an additional 3 per game or get to the line more.

Plus, I trust that our point guard and our combo guard can get him in more desirable spots to get him easier shots and points.

 

I think your fear of Siakam is unfounded.  Every player has flaws in their game.  But if he were on our side, he'd be one of your favorite players.

Adding Siakam would take this team to the next level, and cause @benhillboy to give me 100 basketball cards.

 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

• 77% FT at 5 makes per game = 5 points
• 52% FG on 2 point shots at 7.6 per game = 15 points
• 33% FG on 3 point shots at 1.3 per game = 3 points

Let's talk attempts shall we...

FTs = 6.5 attempts. 

FGs = 14.6 attempts

3 pters  = 3.9 attempts

 

= 25 attempts per game...

This is the basis of your calculations @TheNorthCydeRises  25 attempts per game. 

Last year Trae had 19 attempts.

Murray had 17.8 attempts. 

JC had 10 attempts

and CC had 8.8 attempts.

So to get the magic 23 ppg, Siakam by your math would have to take 25 attempts total...   Who is he stealing Shots from?

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

50 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Let's talk attempts shall we...

FTs = 6.5 attempts. 

FGs = 14.6 attempts

3 pters  = 3.9 attempts

 

= 25 attempts per game...

This is the basis of your calculations @TheNorthCydeRises  25 attempts per game. 

Last year Trae had 19 attempts.

Murray had 17.8 attempts. 

JC had 10 attempts

and CC had 8.8 attempts.

So to get the magic 23 ppg, Siakam by your math would have to take 25 attempts total...   Who is he stealing Shots from?

 

( sigh ) . . . use actual numbers Diesel.  All of this is easy to find.

 

 

He averaged 24 pts on 18.5 shots per game

• 14.5 shots from 2
• 4 shots from 3
• Went to the line 6.7 times, in which a shot attempt does not count, unless you make the shot.
  • He drew 229 total shooting fouls
  • And had 52 "And 1" chances after he got fouled making a shot
  • By my math, he's getting a chance at the "and 1" almost 23% of the time he gets fouled

 

 

Now look at our team.

 

Trae drew the most shooting fouls ( 223 ), "And 1's ( 44 ), and of course had the most points generated from assists ( 1,685 ).

The 2nd most shooting fouls drawn on the team, was Dre with 100.  When you look at our team, this was a clear indication that Trae was really the only one attacking the basket, without Trae actually tossing a lob to someone.

 

Siakam is a triple threat offensive player. 

• He can shoot well enough to keep people honest, albeit it needs to improve
• He can create his own shot in isolation about as well as any PF in the league
• He can pass the ball as well as any PF in the league

 

Honestly, the flaws that you're trying to point out about Siakam are pin pricks, compared to the obvious positive aspects about his game.

The biggest negative about the Hawks pulling off a trade for him, is the lack of a guarantee that he will not re-sign.  That's a HUGE negative.  And to be honest, that's the ONLY negative.

 

Even the contract that he will get will be well deserved, because he's one of the most talented offensive forwards in the league. With the way the CBA is set up, he may not even get the supermax now.  He may get a number below that.

Edited July 8, 2023 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Diesel]

18.5 FGA + 4.0 3ptA + FT attempt..

 

ah... nevermind...

[Diesel]

33 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Honestly, the flaws that you're trying to point out about Siakam are pin pricks, compared to the obvious positive aspects about his game.

You mean the fact that he won't sign an extension.  He won't resign with us... and that he will suck up shots from everybody else. 

He's a High Usage, Low TS player period.   You can try to camoflage the fact that he gets his points on 24-25 shots a game all you wish.  For him to recreate that in Atlanta... it will require the same number of attempts.  Outside of Trae and DJ giving up attempts, I don't see how he get above 18-19... unless Quin really speeds up the offense. 

During his time in Utah, his pace was 22nd in the league, 18th in the league, 24th in the league, 13th in the league, 25th in the league, and 30th in the league.  That means that there was only one season where Quin's offense was better than 1/2 of the leagues in terms of pace.   That's a slow and deliberate offense.   Not an offense where Siakam will be able to put up more shots .  Just for grins, last year Toronto was 27, the year before that 7th, the year before that 13th, the year before that 2nd, and the year before that 15th..    He has only had one season where the pace was lower than 1/2 the teams in the league...

So what do you think will happen when the record keeps slipping and slowing down?

 

 

[AHF]

7 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

I didn't implicate Trae Young...You added that tidbit yourself but as far as the poster are concerned, a poster even admitted he was afraid of losing Young if something was not done.  Plus every other team's front office have agreed that it would be a bad idea to add Kat to any roster because they view it as a Blake Griffin to Detroit move.  In essence, I giving them the benefit of the doubt by saying that they are intelligent enough not think this is a good move from a strategic stand point but are willing to pull the trigger out of fear that Young is driving the interest behind the scene.

In other words “not a single poster has argued for what I’m claiming and the closest I have is someone saying the team had better improve or they fear Trae will want to move on.”  (And you are reading more into the KAT situation than there is a basis to substantiate.)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

39 minutes ago, Diesel said:

18.5 FGA + 4.0 3ptA + FT attempt..

 

ah... nevermind...

 

LOL . . . it's OK to admit that you calculated it wrong man.

It's OK.

[Peoriabird]

22 minutes ago, AHF said:

In other words “not a single poster has argued for what I’m claiming and the closest I have is someone saying the team had better improve or they fear Trae will want to move on.”  (And you are reading more into the KAT situation than there is a basis to substantiate.)

Like I said...I just hope those posters aren't stupid enough to believe that it would be a great Idea to sign either especially Kat.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

16 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You mean the fact that he won't sign an extension.  He won't resign with us... and that he will suck up shots from everybody else. 

He's a High Usage, Low TS player period.   You can try to camoflage the fact that he gets his points on 24-25 shots a game all you wish.  For him to recreate that in Atlanta... it will require the same number of attempts.  Outside of Trae and DJ giving up attempts, I don't see how he get above 18-19... unless Quin really speeds up the offense. 

During his time in Utah, his pace was 22nd in the league, 18th in the league, 24th in the league, 13th in the league, 25th in the league, and 30th in the league.  That means that there was only one season where Quin's offense was better than 1/2 of the leagues in terms of pace.   That's a slow and deliberate offense.   Not an offense where Siakam will be able to put up more shots .  Just for grins, last year Toronto was 27, the year before that 7th, the year before that 13th, the year before that 2nd, and the year before that 15th..    He has only had one season where the pace was lower than 1/2 the teams in the league...

So what do you think will happen when the record keeps slipping and slowing down?

 

Quin played at that slow pace because he didn't have high level scorers on his team.  Quin does not want the team to play at a slower pace.  In 2020 - 21, he proved that when his team was 4th in pace and 3rd in overall offensive efficiency.  And his top 3 scorers were Donovan Mitchell, Jordan Clarkson, and Bojan Bodganovic.

And with the way Siakam handles the ball, he will thrive in a higher paced system alongside Trae and DJ.  Out of those 3, it's Trae that we will actually have to speed up.  Trae doesn't push the ball upcourt with the dribble, but will push it up court via the pass.

The potential great thing for Trae if he has the luxury to play with Siakam, is that Pascal will get the rebound and immediately push it up the floor.  This will give Trae the opportunity to stay on the wing and receive a transition fast break pass from Siakam for open 3 point shots.  Or for DJ running with him and cutting to the rim for easy dunks.

 

 

He does too many things well Diesel.  His all around game is superb.

Keep dying on that one hill about his Usage % and TS% if you want.  He'll be playing with an elite playmaker in Trae, and a very good playmaker in DJ, who actually thrives most in transition.  All 3 could make each other better.

 

The ONLY obstacle is if he wants to sign a long term contract to be here.  That's it man.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

32 minutes ago, AHF said:

In other words “not a single poster has argued for what I’m claiming and the closest I have is someone saying the team had better improve or they fear Trae will want to move on.”  (And you are reading more into the KAT situation than there is a basis to substantiate.)

 

And the reason why I said it, is because I want to keep as many high level players on this team as possible.  I do not want to have to go all the way back and start over.  Peoria obviously doesn't believe in Trae, and that's fine.  I, and probably 75% of the fan base, do.  But for him to be successful, he needs higher level players around him. 

Getting DJ was a step in the right direction, even if those two had flaws in year 1 with each other.  But I want what other teams have, and that is a 3rd guy who can occasionally play at that top level, to make the team overall great.

And I'm not against keeping the kids and developing them.  I'm against acting like the kids aren't expendable, if we have a chance to get a high level player that can help us immediately.