It's time for a grown man talk about Siakim....

[sillent]

6 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Oh my gosh.  This should be pinned at the top of every post.  We just love our young guys because maybe one day they will be impact players.   We thought the future was right around the corner with Trae,Kev,Cam,Hunter,JC.  How'd that work out? 

Like you said no other player is good enough for us.  Folks called Derrick White trash and a low impact player when Boston acquired him.  He friggin rained 3s on us in the playoffs while playing good D. 

Here's what winning moves look like:

 

So did Boston win or are they having some of the same conversations we're having? The difference between them and us is they stick with their youth alot longer.

You mentioned Cam who I believed was a key piece being 6'8 long and a two way player to play along with Trae and motivated Hunter.

Instead we played Huerter another non defensive player along with Trae over developing Cam which would've been a better fit and better talent and obviously things began to crumble.

If we truly kept our core together we'd be having a different conversation but whether it was chemistry, ego or whatever our core didn't get a long enough run to see what we truly had and that team hasn't been the same since the Cam trade which is why we needed a Dejounte. 

If we keep planting seeds and digging them up before giving them a chance to grow we aren't going to ever see what the true results might bring. A tree doesn't grow over night and neither does chemistry or a winning formula.

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, sillent said:

So did Boston win or are they having some of the same conversations we're having? The difference between them and us is they stick with their youth alot longer.

You mentioned Cam who I believed was a key piece being 6'8 long and a two way player to play along with Trae and motivated Hunter.

Instead we played Huerter another non defensive player along with Trae over developing Cam which would've been a better fit and better talent and obviously things began to crumble.

If we truly kept our core together we'd be having a different conversation but whether it was chemistry, ego or whatever our core didn't get a long enough run to see what we truly had and that team hasn't been the same since the Cam trade which is why we needed a Dejounte. 

If we keep planting seeds and digging them up before giving them a chance to grow we aren't going to ever see what the true results might bring. A tree doesn't grow over night and neither does chemistry or a winning formula.

Well i don't agree with that.  After the Cam trade we started playing much better.  And Cam has proven to be a fringe NBA player.  Boston?  When you have two #3 picks in subsequent years you've got a bit of an advantage.  But i don't see them sticking with guys any longer than anyone else really. 

We just did a terrible job building a team after we got Trae.  It started ok but it's been a terrible organization the last few years.  It's screwed us. 

[sillent]

6 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

There is no way that AJ - JJ - OO is a better trio from a potential standpoint than Horford - Smith - Marvin were.  Heck, we watched AJ struggle mightily in the 2nd half of the season where he hit the rookie wall.  JJ played better as the year went on, and still couldn't get legit rotation minutes.  OO has improved, but no one can definitely say that he's better than Capela at this moment.

These kids are not generational talents. Because of that, they can easily be replaced.  It's not a coincidence that in 2021 when we made our playoff run, we made it basically without "Wingstop" ( Hunter and Reddish ). 

I'm rooting for our current crop of kids more than anyone.  I said back in January when we were struggling, that Nate's only chance was to start playing the kids more.  He didn't do it ( with JJ ) and it got him fired.

Quin seems to love JJ, but the jury may still be out on AJ in his eyes.  So it will be interesting to see what his role is.

 

Fans are fooling themselves if they think that all 4 of those guys are going to be impact players.  We might even have to get rid of Bogi, just to free up playing time for AJ.  Bufkin isn't a true PG, more like a combo guard, so we might even have an issue at that spot.

Here are the NBADraft.net comparisons for each player

• Kobe Bufkin ....................... Jordan Poole
• AJ Griffin ............................ Jamal Mashburn/Robert Covington
• Jalen Johnson .................... Stephen Jackson/TJ Warren
• Oneyka Okongwu .............. John Collins/Montrezl Harrell

Agree or disagree?

If you disagree, name the NBA comparisons for each player as you see them.

I think many of us are missing the key piece of basketball which I would've thought Miami showed clearly this past season. 

Everyone in the nba has talent. What puts teams over the top is chemistry, grit, heart, coaching, health/depth. 

Would you consider Jimmy Butler a top 10 player during the regular season? It's that extra will to win that catapults him to the top in the highest moments.

Is anyone on that heats team better than Al - Josh and Marvin talent wise? If not than that must mean talent isn't the only thing that gets you over the top.

Jabari Parker is more talented than Bazemore but who would we rather have at the time?

Sometimes we get so lost in the glimmer and shine of talent that we sleep on true impact.

Bruce Brown/Gabe Vincent weren't the most talented on their past teams respectfully but it's the true impact that creates real results. 

JC is better than Grant Williams but I'd like to see Grant here over him based on his low cost but true impact.

Even if Miami get Dame we are going to see the cost of losing true impact players from both Miami and Denver.

The young players we currently have on the team are impact players and impact doesn't always show in the box scores but it does in the win column. The versatility and energy JJ brings us undeniable. OO does so much for us at 6'8 that many want to start him over another impact player in Clint. AJ has been so impactful as a rookie that he already has 2 game winners under his belt which is more than a few stars that have been in the league and put up the numbers.

Speaking of how many game winners does Siakim have? Stars look good but end results is the key to advancing. 

What's different with this young core than young talented cores we had in the past is they are less about ego and more about winning. We get what we put our energy towards.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(( sigh )) . . . a lot to break down here.  But I'm off today, so I have time.

I have confidence that Trae can make the game a lot easier for Siakam, so that he doesn't have to go ISO all of the time. 

In fact, a Trae - Siakam pick and roll could be devastating.  But the flip side is that Siakam himself can be the ball handling facilitator in a pick and roll set with a big or a shooter, that can get the roll/slip man easy shots.

 

 

And make no mistake, it would be dumb to not make Siakam one of our featured scorers, if we get him back in a trade.  We're not using him as a role player.  We're going to use him as one of our top scorers.

Siakam easily takes 16+ shots if he's a Hawk.  As I said, I can see a scenario in which Siakam is getting the most shots on the team, while Trae's assist total goes up

Shots per game in a ball movement offense:

• Siakam - 18
• Trae - 16
• DJ - 14
• Bogi - 10
• Bey - 10
• Okongwu - 8
• AJ - 8

Despite Bufkin being here, DJ is stil going to get the majority of minutes at the backup PG spot.  These will be your main 7 offensive threats, with guys alternating who has big games among the top 3.

LOL @ showing 1 video of Siakam.  I've damn near posted 7 - 10 videos of him in various threads.  3 alone with him destroying US.  I've posted commentary, stats, you name it. You're the one dying on the one hill of Total Usage% + Total Shot%.  

I agree that his TS% should be better.  But I also agree that our superstar PG can see to it that it rises.  John Collins has a career 62% TS%. mainly because Trae has made his life as an offensive threat very easy with lobs to the rim, and by throwing him the ball for wide open 3s.

And now the guy is Shaq . . . lol.  He can't make FTs now huh?  Career 77% fro the line, but he's going to get "hack a Shaqed"?  Come on man.

[AHF]

37 minutes ago, sillent said:

You mentioned Cam who I believed was a key piece being 6'8 long and a two way player to play along with Trae and motivated Hunter.

Instead we played Huerter another non defensive player along with Trae over developing Cam which would've been a better fit and better talent and obviously things began to crumble.

2019-20 Cam Reddish - Started 34 of 58 games.  Played 26.7 minutes per game as a rookie.  Negative 0.4 Win Shares.

2020-21 Cam Reddish - Started 21 of 26 games.  Played 28.8 minutes per game.  Started OVER Huerter until Cam got hurt.  Positive 0.4 Win Shares.

2021-22 Cam Reddish - Demanded a trade.  Played 23.7 minutes per game in Atlanta.  Playing time cut to 14.3 minutes per game in New York after they gave up a first round pick for him.  1.0 Win Share.

How did Cam not have a chance to develop?  Huerter put up more win shares as a rookie (before Cam was on the team) than Cam did in his first 3 seasons combined.  Huerter has also been much better than Cam since they left Atlanta.

[Peoriabird]

37 minutes ago, sillent said:

I think many of us are missing the key piece of basketball which I would've thought Miami showed clearly this past season. 

Everyone in the nba has talent. What puts teams over the top is chemistry, grit, heart, coaching, health/depth. 

Would you consider Jimmy Butler a top 10 player during the regular season? It's that extra will to win that catapults him to the top in the highest moments.

Is anyone on that heats team better than Al - Josh and Marvin talent wise? If not than that must mean talent isn't the only thing that gets you over the top.

Jabari Parker is more talented than Bazemore but who would we rather have at the time?

Sometimes we get so lost in the glimmer and shine of talent that we sleep on true impact.

Bruce Brown/Gabe Vincent weren't the most talented on their past teams respectfully but it's the true impact that creates real results. 

JC is better than Grant Williams but I'd like to see Grant here over him based on his low cost but true impact.

Even if Miami get Dame we are going to see the cost of losing true impact players from both Miami and Denver.

The young players we currently have on the team are impact players and impact doesn't always show in the box scores but it does in the win column. The versatility and energy JJ brings us undeniable. OO does so much for us at 6'8 that many want to start him over another impact player in Clint. AJ has been so impactful as a rookie that he already has 2 game winners under his belt which is more than a few stars that have been in the league and put up the numbers.

Speaking of how many game winners does Siakim have? Stars look good but end results is the key to advancing. 

What's different with this young core than young talented cores we had in the past is they are less about ego and more about winning. We get what we put our energy towards.

This^^^^^^

[Plainview1981]

1 hour ago, sillent said:

So did Boston win or are they having some of the same conversations we're having? The difference between them and us is they stick with their youth alot longer.

You mentioned Cam who I believed was a key piece being 6'8 long and a two way player to play along with Trae and motivated Hunter.

Instead we played Huerter another non defensive player along with Trae over developing Cam which would've been a better fit and better talent and obviously things began to crumble.

If we truly kept our core together we'd be having a different conversation but whether it was chemistry, ego or whatever our core didn't get a long enough run to see what we truly had and that team hasn't been the same since the Cam trade which is why we needed a Dejounte. 

If we keep planting seeds and digging them up before giving them a chance to grow we aren't going to ever see what the true results might bring. A tree doesn't grow over night and neither does chemistry or a winning formula.

Here is the problem... The Hawks are committed to Trae and I highly doubt he is going to want to win soon and not wait for more 22 year Olds to develop. If they do.

That doesn't mean they should be given away or anything. Getting rid of both OO and AJ right now shouldn't be take. Lightly... nor should they be treated as fodder, but if I big piece can be added, moving one of them might have to happen.

[Peoriabird]

3 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

but if I big piece can be added, moving one of them might have to happen.

Yeah for true difference makers like Giannis or Jokic not for another Dejounte Murray

[theheroatl]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Yeah for true difference makers like Giannis or Jokic not for another Dejounte Murray

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Yeah for true difference makers like Giannis or Jokic not for another Dejounte Murray

Wait wut?  You would only trade AJ or OO for MVPs?   Those two have combined started like 20 NBA games. 

[Peoriabird]

15 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Wait wut?  You would only trade AJ or OO for MVPs?   Those two have combined started like 20 NBA games. 

Would not trade them for Murray!  That's for d-mn sure.  In fact, both might turn out to be better than Murray

[Final_quest]

17 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Wait wut?  You would only trade AJ or OO for MVPs?   Those two have combined started like 20 NBA games. 

Only Giannis or Jokic are acceptable trade candidates.  Everyone else is not as good as Okongwu or AJ.  Things I've learned this offseason...

[sillent]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

(( sigh )) . . . a lot to break down here.  But I'm off today, so I have time.

I have confidence that Trae can make the game a lot easier for Siakam, so that he doesn't have to go ISO all of the time. 

In fact, a Trae - Siakam pick and roll could be devastating.  But the flip side is that Siakam himself can be the ball handling facilitator in a pick and roll set with a big or a shooter, that can get the roll/slip man easy shots.

 

 

And make no mistake, it would be dumb to not make Siakam one of our featured scorers, if we get him back in a trade.  We're not using him as a role player.  We're going to use him as one of our top scorers.

Siakam easily takes 16+ shots if he's a Hawk.  As I said, I can see a scenario in which Siakam is getting the most shots on the team, while Trae's assist total goes up

Shots per game in a ball movement offense:

• Siakam - 18
• Trae - 16
• DJ - 14
• Bogi - 10
• Bey - 10
• Okongwu - 8
• AJ - 8

Despite Bufkin being here, DJ is stil going to get the majority of minutes at the backup PG spot.  These will be your main 7 offensive threats, with guys alternating who has big games among the top 3.

LOL @ showing 1 video of Siakam.  I've damn near posted 7 - 10 videos of him in various threads.  3 alone with him destroying US.  I've posted commentary, stats, you name it. You're the one dying on the one hill of Total Usage% + Total Shot%.  

I agree that his TS% should be better.  But I also agree that our superstar PG can see to it that it rises.  John Collins has a career 62% TS%. mainly because Trae has made his life as an offensive threat very easy with lobs to the rim, and by throwing him the ball for wide open 3s.

And now the guy is Shaq . . . lol.  He can't make FTs now huh?  Career 77% fro the line, but he's going to get "hack a Shaqed"?  Come on man.

So no chemistry/ego problems here we're just going to let a new guy come in and be the face of the franchise and hope he stays past a yr.

Sounds like a recipe for success!! That's why all the big 3's have been so successful lol.

Honestly if Draymond and Klay didn't take a backseat when Durant came I highly doubt they win it all.

From this description though you have Siakim being the face of the franchise, Trae 2nd tier and DJ 3rd fiddle. I'm sure they all will be fine with that.

People love seeing new people come in and take over or get spots above them at their jobs. Especially those that haven't proven anything within the system of that particular job and they've been working there longer and carrying that franchise. 

Don't worry if it doesn't work out we can start from scratch in a yr and clean up the mess left behind because that's a successful business model right Brooklyn, OKC, Dominique?

History says if we don't learn from it it will repeat itself. Atleast Danny Manning looked young and promising at the time but who knows. Maybe this time will be different.

Maybe our big 3 will be better than any that ever tried and failed. 

Don't get me wrong I commend the try. I think Siakim would be a great mentor for Mo Gueye if anything even if it's just for a yr. It's when the try gets overly complicated and more than likely unnecessary that I have to take a step back and ask myself is it truly worth it.

I don't think it is to start a season with 2 of your 3 stars possibly leaving the season after or costing so much that it hinders our growth and development. If you want to build for mid tier every yr have at it but unless you have true game changers it's really just a gamble.

In this case I wouldn't put all my chips on the table because with Siakim it leaves us with a 4yr window at best and I'd doubt he'd be our 3rd best player by that time as he would be a high priced 34 yr old.

[sillent]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

You damn right we're worried.

Unless we have another high level player to replace Trae, we're counting on these kids to elevate this team to the next level.  Kids that we will have to give major deals to, just to keep around.

Excuse me for having more faith in the guy that was instrumental in seeing the Hawks making their deepest run into the playoffs in my lifetime.  Even a deeper run than my all-time favorite player Dominique. 

That's the guy I want to keep around, and surround with higher level players.  And that was Nique's issue.  He had great complimentary players, but never that 2nd or 3rd guy that the team could count on to help Nique carry the team.  His entire legacy as a player was tarnished, because people only saw Nique as a gunner that couldn't win in the playoffs, and not as a guy trying to do everything to help his team win games.

 

My question is what makes us think adding another ball dominant player that would make either him, Trae, Dejounte or all of them change their games in order to fit with each other work?

Wouldn't that push Trae out the door faster? Like @Peoriabird said if it's not for a Giannis or Jokic will it really be pushing us forward?

Did Dejounte push us forward or show us that chemistry is just as important as talent. We've lost a piece of our old core each yr now with the latest being JC (understandably) and Huerter (again understandably) because of how ownership operates.

We got DJ based on his son playing GM and it looked good and worth it possibly on paper. Besides the "name" it's hard to validate even on paper that a Siakim move would look good with us and honestly we're a yr or 2 too late to make an impactful move for him especially at the current asking price.

I don't get how some don't get that we'd be gambling our future on this yr making that move and if it doesn't work we risk losing all 3 of our stars in one yr ala Nets... If egos aren't fed properly and the chemistry is a struggle (which it will be coming into the door seeing as Siakim wants to stay in (TOR) and get his max.

It's bubbling water waiting to boil over and so many are to eager to empty the pot with no regards of the repercussions that could follow.

I'm all for improving the team. The 1st way to do that is to get a true evaluation of what we already have and then fill in the holes with the correct pieces. 

If you have a game changer like a Giannis, Jokic or guys that can truly change a franchise then of course you have to throw your chips in like Toronto did when they got Kawhi. Even then just like Kawhi there's no guarantee that it will last but atleast you know it was worth it. 

If we were getting a good player that would fit better like an AD or KAT I would even go for it because the roles are more defined and don't conflict with the other stars on the team. Why would I bring in another ball dominant player on a team that has 2 stars that are ball dominant by nature and position?

How could I expect that chemistry to magically be great within a year and at what cost am I willing to take such a risk? We have to ask ourselves these questions and be comfortable with pivoting if the answers and outlook don't project the best possible results.

All I know is build your core correctly you have potential for a dynasty. Chase after mediocre or even great stars that aren't necessarily game changers and you could find yourself more often than not doing that every year until we're eventually back in the same boat we originally started which is tearing everything down and rebuilding thru the draft. 

I don't know if the fan in me can go thru that process again because of us trying to skip steps without looking at the pros and cons. If it was Wemby I'd do it just because of his game changing qualities. Siakim isn't a game changer. He's a good player just like DeRozan was a good player. Kawhi was the game changer. That's the difference between being worth it and taking an unnecessary gamble.

Doing something for the sake of doing something leaves us with Sharife Abdul Rahim (good/great player) vs having a Pau Gasol (game changer)

Edited July 5, 2023 by sillent

[sillent]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

(( sigh )) . . . a lot to break down here.  But I'm off today, so I have time.

I have confidence that Trae can make the game a lot easier for Siakam, so that he doesn't have to go ISO all of the time. 

In fact, a Trae - Siakam pick and roll could be devastating.  But the flip side is that Siakam himself can be the ball handling facilitator in a pick and roll set with a big or a shooter, that can get the roll/slip man easy shots.

 

 

And make no mistake, it would be dumb to not make Siakam one of our featured scorers, if we get him back in a trade.  We're not using him as a role player.  We're going to use him as one of our top scorers.

Siakam easily takes 16+ shots if he's a Hawk.  As I said, I can see a scenario in which Siakam is getting the most shots on the team, while Trae's assist total goes up

Shots per game in a ball movement offense:

• Siakam - 18
• Trae - 16
• DJ - 14
• Bogi - 10
• Bey - 10
• Okongwu - 8
• AJ - 8

Despite Bufkin being here, DJ is stil going to get the majority of minutes at the backup PG spot.  These will be your main 7 offensive threats, with guys alternating who has big games among the top 3.

LOL @ showing 1 video of Siakam.  I've damn near posted 7 - 10 videos of him in various threads.  3 alone with him destroying US.  I've posted commentary, stats, you name it. You're the one dying on the one hill of Total Usage% + Total Shot%.  

I agree that his TS% should be better.  But I also agree that our superstar PG can see to it that it rises.  John Collins has a career 62% TS%. mainly because Trae has made his life as an offensive threat very easy with lobs to the rim, and by throwing him the ball for wide open 3s.

And now the guy is Shaq . . . lol.  He can't make FTs now huh?  Career 77% fro the line, but he's going to get "hack a Shaqed"?  Come on man.

If we trade DJ this makes more sense but I wouldn't give more than him Hunter or Clint possible Bogi.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, sillent said:

So no chemistry/ego problems here we're just going to let a new guy come in and be the face of the franchise and hope he stays past a yr.

Recipe for Success!!!

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, sillent said:

From this description though you have Siakim being the face of the franchise, Trae 2nd tier and DJ 3rd fiddle. I'm sure they all will be fine with that.

Recipe for Success!!!

[Diesel]

50 minutes ago, sillent said:

Did Dejounte push us forward or show us that chemistry is just as important as talent.

    

Not Considering Chemistry.... Recipe for Success!!!

I tried finding a picture with Nique, Moses, and Theus but none exists....

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, sillent said:

In this case I wouldn't put all my chips on the table because with Siakim it leaves us with a 4yr window at best and I'd doubt he'd be our 3rd best player by that time as he would be a high priced 34 yr old.

    

  

 

We know what it feels like to be lured into overpaying...

Recipe for Success!!

[sillent]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

    

Not Considering Chemistry.... Recipe for Success!!!

I tried finding a picture with Nique, Moses, and Theus but none exists....

Not considering chemistry and just going on talent BOL BOL would be my choice hands down. Someone who could go up against the Wemby's of the world lol