I hope the Siakam deal fails to go through.

[JeffS17]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:48 AM, AtLaS said:

You have to have 3pt shooting at 4 of 5 starting positions in the modern NBA.

This is quickly becoming one of my biggest pet peeves.  You do not NEED 3P shooting at 4/5 positions.  You need good schemes and coaching.  Even the Warriors, who popularized 3P shooting, did not have that in most lineup combinations.  Also, Siakam is serviceable enough that guys cannot just leave him open at the 3P line, so the spacing is going to be there anyways.  You only need to be a decent wide open shooter to create space for the offense.

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

This is quickly becoming one of my biggest pet peeves.  You do not NEED 3P shooting at 4/5 positions.  You need good schemes and coaching.  Even the Warriors, who popularized 3P shooting, did not have that in most lineup combinations.  Also, Siakam is serviceable enough that guys cannot just leave him open at the 3P line, so the spacing is going to be there anyways.  You only need to be a decent wide open shooter to create space for the offense.

No.  You need good shooting.  We're not really a good shooting team.  You mention GS, but they have two guys that shoots over 40% from three  in their championship years without KD.   For example..

This is very scary.   

Compare that to us...

And the proposal is to trade Bogi and Hunter for Pascal. 

So two our of better three point shooters...  Leaving us with only Bey and Griff who are good three point shooters.   Scheme won't fix that. 

 

[theheroatl]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

No.  You need good shooting.  We're not really a good shooting team.  You mention GS, but they have two guys that shoots over 40% from three  in their championship years without KD.   For example..

This is very scary.   

Compare that to us...

And the proposal is to trade Bogi and Hunter for Pascal. 

So two our of better three point shooters...  Leaving us with only Bey and Griff who are good three point shooters.   Scheme won't fix that. 

 

You really gonna compare one year of GS as the model for championships?

2-3 really good 3 pt shooters works fine. You need star power and clutch scoring in the playoffs.

you need multiple non streaky players… the ones that get a bucket when the 3’s aren’t falling 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by theheroatl

[Final_quest]

If Siakam doesn't work because he "can't shoot", how is Jalen supposed to be the answer?

[Spud2nique]

22 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

If Siakam doesn't work because he "can't shoot", how is Jalen supposed to be the answer?

Your gonna get a BS answer soon .

[kg01]

17 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Your gonna get a BS answer soon .

Boy stop.

Is that a good B.S. answer?  Hehe 

[Gray Mule]

Siakam = Collins.  

[kg01]

28 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Siakam = Collins.  

Folks will bristle at this but the reality is, once you factor in the money, you're not far off. 

[macdaddy]

We're all over the place now.   I've cooled on Siakam but he has been the centerpiece of the offense since Kawhi left.  I love JC but that's not him.  

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Gray Mule said:

Siakam = Collins.  

 

33 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Folks will bristle at this but the reality is, once you factor in the money, you're not far off. 

3 years ago I think there was legit debate.  I think today, Siakam is clearly the better player and it is a significant gap.

And that seems to be exacerbated in the playoffs over their last two appearances:  

JC averages around 10 points, 4.5 rebounds, 1 assist, 0.35 steals, and 0.6 blocks (with around 45% fg% / .542% TS%)

Siakam averages around 20 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.1 steals, and 0.7 blocks (granted his shooting isn't good).   

Bottomline for me is that JC just disappears and makes no impact way too much in those big games in recent years.

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

We're all over the place now.   I've cooled on Siakam but he has been the centerpiece of the offense since Kawhi left.  I love JC but that's not him.  

JC never consistently stepped up to be that guy when Trae was not in the game.  Murray has done it, and Siakam could be a third guy to fill that role.  People are irrational with the Collins=Siakam comments.  Not even close.  

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

Folks will bristle at this but the reality is, once you factor in the money, you're not far off. 

You don’t watch enough Raptor games.

3 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

Siakam = Collins.  

Gramps, I know it’s the cagey effect but don’t let him let you troll me like this.  

[kg01]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

 

3 years ago I think there was legit debate.  I think today, Siakam is clearly the better player and it is a significant gap.

And that seems to be exacerbated in the playoffs over their last two appearances:  

JC averages around 10 points, 4.5 rebounds, 1 assist, 0.35 steals, and 0.6 blocks (with around 45% fg% / .542% TS%)

Siakam averages around 20 points, 6 rebounds, 5 assists, 1.1 steals, and 0.7 blocks (granted his shooting isn't good).   

Bottomline for me is that JC just disappears and makes no impact way too much in those big games in recent years.

 

25 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

JC never consistently stepped up to be that guy when Trae was not in the game.  Murray has done it, and Siakam could be a third guy to fill that role.  People are irrational with the Collins=Siakam comments.  Not even close.  

 

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

You don’t watch enough Raptor games.

Gramps, I know it’s the cagey effect but don’t let him let you troll me like this.  

Siakim is the better player but, as I said, once you factor in the contracts it's closer than ya think.  And folks conveniently forget how absent Siakim is in the playoffs without Kawhi.... 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

 

 

Siakim is the better player but, as I said, once you factor in the contracts it's closer than ya think.  And folks conveniently forget how absent Siakim is in the playoffs without Kawhi.... 

the contract thing for sure. 5 years and 288 mill eligible if he makes an all NBA team this upcoming year. I dunno what team he’s on but barring injury you will see the best career stat year from Pascal individually and traded by the February deadline to a team that wouldn’t mind paying that. WE CAN’T. 
 

I’ve sadly come to that realization but still won’t take the Pascal avatar one down till AHF changes it on opening night or whenever .. even then I’ll prolly fight about it  

[warcore]

10 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

I’ve sadly come to that realization

... that you'd rather keep AJ?

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, warcore said:

... that you'd rather keep AJ?

No he was never on the table in my mind.  

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

the contract thing for sure. 5 years and 288 mill eligible if he makes an all NBA team this upcoming year. I dunno what team he’s on but barring injury you will see the best career stat year from Pascal individually and traded by the February deadline to a team that wouldn’t mind paying that. WE CAN’T. 
 

I’ve sadly come to that realization but still won’t take the Pascal avatar one down till AHF changes it on opening night or whenever .. even then I’ll prolly fight about it  

Yeah, it's the costs for me not the player. Cost player-wise and cost 'next contract'-wise. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Final_quest said:

If Siakam doesn't work because he "can't shoot", how is Jalen supposed to be the answer?

I don't think Jalen is an answer beyond BU.

I would rather see what a Bey/Hunter 4/3 lineup can do until we can get a better situation. 

Going out and trading some of our best shooters for a rental or a 50+ Million dollar player who is just Jalen with more age and experience...  is not an answer. 

Point is, I'd rather not pick up the rental and develop our poor shooting Jalen.   At least Jalen is cheap. 

 

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

Folks will bristle at this but the reality is, once you factor in the money, you're not far off. 

Once you factor in the money, he's double the price of Collins and when healthy Collins is a better shooter. 

 

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

Yeah, it's the costs for me not the player. Cost player-wise and cost 'next contract'-wise. 

It seems the NBA executives don't agree.  Teams are willing to give up significant assets for Siakam where Collins is/was a salary dump. 

[JeffS17]

15 hours ago, Diesel said:

No.  You need good shooting.  We're not really a good shooting team.  You mention GS, but they have two guys that shoots over 40% from three  in their championship years without KD.   For example..

This is very scary.   

Compare that to us...

And the proposal is to trade Bogi and Hunter for Pascal. 

So two our of better three point shooters...  Leaving us with only Bey and Griff who are good three point shooters.   Scheme won't fix that. 

 

No one is suggesting you don't need good shooters to contend.  Anyone can look at the Raptors from last year and see that.  But, you've misrepresented my argument and then provided a counter-argument to something I never said.  What I said is you don't need 4 above average 3P shooters in the starting lineup to compete.  3 is fine.  It's also not a genuine approach to look at a player and deem them a shooter or not -- Siakam is serviceable from beyond the arc -- as I stated before, to a degree that you cannot leave him wide open or sag off him.  Capela would be the only player that would not provide spacing in the lineup, and he is the primary roll man anyways, so the floor would be maximally spaced.