I hope the Siakam deal fails to go through.

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

We did not have the versatility that we needed when it came to the playoffs and spacing was a big factor there which gets worse with Siakam

Okay, I guess this is where we disagree.  I don't see how Siakam can possibly make our offense worse than JC last year.  Spacing will be much better given people were letting JC fire at will from three...  Siakam doesn't even need elite 3P shooting to take advantage of space, which is a little discussed topic.  He can attack space in the same way Giannis can and draw doubles (or torch most defenders 1on1).  So he spaces the floor effectively without great 3P shooting.  Any way you cut it, swapping Siakam for JC is an increase to spacing -- not sure how you can argue otherwise.

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I find your comments on defense particularly interesting given the big hole on defense we will have if we deal Hunter and don't get back someone who can effectively defend big wings.

Hunter was pretty underwhelming imo.  The only wings he can defend are slow ones.  He gets completely roasted by most slashing 2 guards which is our biggest issue.  Neither Siakam or Hunter address this at all, and we're going to be relying on our development staff to shore up our entire wings' defensive abilities.

Anyways, we don't have to continue on this merry-go-round.  I think most here probably align with you on Siakam, even though I disagree with how things would play out with him on the roster.

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

He can attack space in the same way Giannis can and draw doubles (or torch most defenders 1on1). 

Indeed. 

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

Indeed. 

Yeah, Giannis creates an immense amount of spacing on the offensive end, and he's also a very poor 3P shooter.  I get why people want 3P shooting for spacing, because it's conceptually the easiest thing to visualize and 5 out offenses are fun to watch, but when you constantly draw doubles on drive and have the ability to make the correct passes, it puts huge pressure on the defense and creates space for other to work.  That would be an entirely new dynamic for our offense, because right now only Trae can reliably do that and we have no playmaking in our front court.  

[JeffS17]

I still am not convinced CC is going to be our starting center either (at least not by next year), so it's a bit of a moot point from my perspective how well Siakam/CC work together.  I think Siakam/OO fit even better and basically allow us to get into switch everything (with specific game planning for Trae on that end) defenses.  And OO is still working on that shot 

[Spud2nique]

5 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

he's also

Siakam ain’t bad from downtown. Giannis is way further behind imo.

 

6 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

That would be an entirely new dynamic for our offense, because right now only Trae can reliably do that and we have no playmaking in our front court.  

True. Murray a bit too but you’re right nobody in our frontcourt would be able to do what Siakam can do. Siakam is going to be a top 20 player this season overall and an all star in the East. He’s a really strong power forward. The only thing is the and that’s huge. 

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Okay, I guess this is where we disagree.  I don't see how Siakam can possibly make our offense worse than JC last year.  Spacing will be much better given people were letting JC fire at will from three...  Siakam doesn't even need elite 3P shooting to take advantage of space, which is a little discussed topic.  He can attack space in the same way Giannis can and draw doubles (or torch most defenders 1on1).  So he spaces the floor effectively without great 3P shooting.  Any way you cut it, swapping Siakam for JC is an increase to spacing -- not sure how you can argue otherwise.

I never said Siakam would make our offense worse than JC did last year.  Siakam is an obvious upgrade over 2022-23 JC.  No argument there. 

My point was that I think there are spacing issues with the lineup you are envisioning.  The comparison to GIannis is a good one as I would say that Siakam is in some sense like a poor man's Giannis on offense.  Guess who pairs with Giannis in the frontcourt?  Is it a center who stands near the basket clogging up the lane?  No.  It is a 3pt shooting center who spaces the floor for Giannis which makes the action Giannis wants to run good at spacing the floor.  So trade out CC for Brook Lopez and we are fully aligned at how well that works.  The reason the Bucks put a priority on pairing Giannis with a center who sets up outside the paint, though, is to avoid the very spacing problems I'm talking about with Siakam and CC.  Opponents have to guard Lopez when he moves outside.  Opponents ignore Clint if he does the same and use that defender to double Siakam with the knowledge that people have plenty of time to recover before CC gets into a zone where he is a threat.  Giannis would have problems playing with CC and I think Siakam will too.  

This is why I've said from the beginning that I think CC needs to go if we trade for Siakam because I don't think the spacing works.  Debating about Trae, DM and Bey is missing the big point.  My point with them is I'm not confident that they are sufficiently dangerous from outside to be big helps in alleviating that spacing issue.

[theheroatl]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

I never said Siakam would make our offense worse than JC did last year.  Siakam is an obvious upgrade over 2022-23 JC.  No argument there. 

My point was that I think there are spacing issues with the lineup you are envisioning.  The comparison to GIannis is a good one as I would say that Siakam is in some sense like a poor man's Giannis on offense.  Guess who pairs with Giannis in the frontcourt?  Is it a center who stands near the basket clogging up the lane?  No.  It is a 3pt shooting center who spaces the floor for Giannis which makes the action Giannis wants to run good at spacing the floor.  So trade out CC for Brook Lopez and we are fully aligned at how well that works.  The reason the Bucks put a priority on pairing Giannis with a center who sets up outside the paint, though, is to avoid the very spacing problems I'm talking about with Siakam and CC.  Opponents have to guard Lopez when he moves outside.  Opponents ignore Clint if he does the same and use that defender to double Siakam with the knowledge that people have plenty of time to recover before CC gets into a zone where he is a threat.  Giannis would have problems playing with CC and I think Siakam will too.  

This is why I've said from the beginning that I think CC needs to go if we trade for Siakam because I don't think the spacing works.  Debating about Trae, DM and Bey is missing the big point.  My point with them is I'm not confident that they are sufficiently dangerous from outside to be big helps in alleviating that spacing issue.

I think it’s an unsaid truth that Siakam + CC is not the pairing.. it would be OO + Siakam.

 

The time to flip CC into another asset is now until trade deadline. Perhaps the expiring but the value might decline if OO gets any more minutes than he has so far.

Edited September 19, 2023 by theheroatl

[AHF]

1 minute ago, theheroatl said:

I think it’s an unsaid truth that Siakam + CC is not the pairing.. it would be OO + Siakam

All my favorite Siakam trades have us sending out CC even if he is going to a third team with assets coming back to Toronto.  I just don't see how it can work and given the minutes I expect Siakam to play I don't see how we can continue to have CC on the roster.  Since CC is under long-term contract you need to move him when you trade for Siakam so you don't destroy his trade value by running Siakam + OO and then having CC play like 15 mpg with Bey at PF when Siakam is on the bench.

[macdaddy]

I don't think the Hawks are interested in Siakam anymore.   Because the smart teams are waiting for Giannis.  Trae/DJ/Giannis=title

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Do you think we had good 3P shooting last year?  We had DM last year at your "Russell Westbrook in a bad terrible season" percentages, Trae shooting pitifully from 3, JC shooting 29%, Hunter shooting 35%, and we only had Bey for 25 games.  Oh, and Bogi only played 54 games.

 

1 hour ago, AHF said:

No.  Our 3pt shooting stunk last season until Bogi was back.

 

We had an entire thread dedicated to our 3 pt struggles - 3 games into the season and it continued thru most of the season.  Low volume, low percentages and spacing.

We got ZERO, NADA, ZILCH from the PF and C position as it relates to 3's last season Clint can't, OO is limited, JC struggled bigtime as did JJ.  

We had a 7th ranked offense but too many games we struggled to score, too many droughts of guys not being able to hit shots.

Quote

The lack of spacing has clearly hurt the Hawks offense as stated above. One domino effect has been the Hawks’ lack of ability for driving guards to finish at the rim. Defenses aren’t respecting Atlanta’s 33% shooting from deep and instead are choosing to pack the paint and prevent Young and others from getting to the rim.

Currently, Trae Young is shooting a brutally low 41% on shots at the rim, which places him in the single lowest percentile of NBA players. Young is a good finisher at the rim despite his size, but the effect of the dearth of shooters around him means help defenders can stay home and contest shots.

Additionally, the Hawks offense has appeared bogged down and lacking the ball movement and efficient play finishing from seasons past. Atlanta is dead last in points stemming from catch-and-shoot situations as well as the percentage of points coming from three-pointers per the NBA’s tracking numbers.Enter AJ Griffin.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, theheroatl said:

I think it’s an unsaid truth that Siakam + CC is not the pairing.. it would be OO + Siakam.

 

The time to flip CC into another asset is now until trade deadline. Perhaps the expiring but the value might decline if OO gets any more minutes than he has so far.

 

1 hour ago, AHF said:

All my favorite Siakam trades have us sending out CC ....

Hawks are gonna mess around and have CC on the market and end up trading him for peanuts.........

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

We had an entire thread dedicated to our 3 pt struggles - 3 games into the season and it continued thru most of the season.  Low volume, low percentages and spacing.

We got ZERO, NADA, ZILCH from the PF and C position as it relates to 3's last season Clint can't, OO is limited, JC struggled bigtime as did JJ.  

We had a 7th ranked offense but too many games we struggled to score, too many droughts of guys not being able to hit shots.

 

My question was rhetorical.  We had awful 3P shooting and still had a very good offense.  Sure, we struggled at times, as most teams do, but overall, it was very good.  With proper scheme in place, it's only natural to assume it will further improve.  We are not in desperate need of more shooters, just a focus on shots we want to be taking in games.  Nate wanted us to get run off the 3P line so we can take middies.  We practiced those.  We took more than anyone.  We have a lot of addition by subtraction going into next year with regard to our offense.

[Sothron]

It sounds like we are going to stand pat with this team and any major changes would be next offseason. Team feels Toronto wasted a lot of their time with useless Siakam talks. 

I am shocked Capela is still here and is planning on still being here through this season. Again, if a team comes to us with a deal we can't say no to then we will make a trade. But I along with many others here felt a consolidation trade was going to happen the last seasons.

Instead, Kevin was traded for next to nothing. Collins was traded for literally nothing. Team is safely under the luxury tax and we have a TPE that the team has no interest in really using.

Frankly it is a little hard to get excited for the upcoming season knowing these things. 

[hawkman]

4 hours ago, Sothron said:

It sounds like we are going to stand pat with this team and any major changes would be next offseason. Team feels Toronto wasted a lot of their time with useless Siakam talks. 

I am shocked Capela is still here and is planning on still being here through this season. Again, if a team comes to us with a deal we can't say no to then we will make a trade. But I along with many others here felt a consolidation trade was going to happen the last seasons.

Instead, Kevin was traded for next to nothing. Collins was traded for literally nothing. Team is safely under the luxury tax and we have a TPE that the team has no interest in really using.

Frankly it is a little hard to get excited for the upcoming season knowing these things. 

I'm a little disappointed in the $$$ cutting moves as well, but I do look forward to see how OO, JJ, and AJ will look in their expanded roles. I'm also excited to see how the team will look under Quin and his staff. I feel like there's a lot of room for growth with this team as it sits right now.

[Spud2nique]

6 hours ago, Sothron said:

next offseason.

Feb deadline, we gotta upgrade JJ ain’t it. Package deal coming this February stay tuned.

-Outsiders

2 hours ago, hawkman said:

JJ

Trade bait, February goner. 

[theheroatl]

7 hours ago, Sothron said:

It sounds like we are going to stand pat with this team and any major changes would be next offseason. Team feels Toronto wasted a lot of their time with useless Siakam talks. 

I am shocked Capela is still here and is planning on still being here through this season. Again, if a team comes to us with a deal we can't say no to then we will make a trade. But I along with many others here felt a consolidation trade was going to happen the last seasons.

Instead, Kevin was traded for next to nothing. Collins was traded for literally nothing. Team is safely under the luxury tax and we have a TPE that the team has no interest in really using.

Frankly it is a little hard to get excited for the upcoming season knowing these things. 

I'm glad that John was moved for the sake of all of us. He was a great guy but I didn't think he was contributing enough for his contract value.

As for other moves, adding Mills was good, Matthews meh, Bufkin the jury is out on, I like Gueye alot.

I held out hope for move for another star level player before camp but I'm with you here on these sentiments.

FYI, I'm not sure getting on the wait for Giannis train is wise unless there are some indications from him that he prefers Atlanta.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

17 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Okay, I guess this is where we disagree.  I don't see how Siakam can possibly make our offense worse than JC last year.  Spacing will be much better given people were letting JC fire at will from three...  Siakam doesn't even need elite 3P shooting to take advantage of space, which is a little discussed topic.  He can attack space in the same way Giannis can and draw doubles (or torch most defenders 1on1).  So he spaces the floor effectively without great 3P shooting.  Any way you cut it, swapping Siakam for JC is an increase to spacing -- not sure how you can argue otherwise.

Hunter was pretty underwhelming imo.  The only wings he can defend are slow ones.  He gets completely roasted by most slashing 2 guards which is our biggest issue.  Neither Siakam or Hunter address this at all, and we're going to be relying on our development staff to shore up our entire wings' defensive abilities.

Anyways, we don't have to continue on this merry-go-round.  I think most here probably align with you on Siakam, even though I disagree with how things would play out with him on the roster.

The disconnect with most in the fan base, is that they really underrate Siakam's playmaking and ball handling ability. Having a guy at the 4 who can pass like he can, makes every shooter we have on the team even more dangerous, including our All-Star PG.

We're going to have this same lack of shooting at the 4 on even a worst scale with Jalen Johnson.  But even with JJ, his ability to pass the ball may offset his 30% 3 point shooting. 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The disconnect with most in the fan base, is that they really underrate Siakam's playmaking and ball handling ability. Having a guy at the 4 who can pass like he can, makes every shooter we have on the team even more dangerous, including our All-Star PG.

We're going to have this same lack of shooting at the 4 on even a worst scale with Jalen Johnson.  But even with JJ, his ability to pass the ball may offset his 30% 3 point shooting. 

For me it has been more about cost to acquire, his future ask and his unwillingness to commit. If this trade was done in conjunction with JC as the main salary filler plus assets it would have made more sense.  Part of the issue now is the Hawks unwillingness to pay the tax.

[macdaddy]

11 hours ago, Sothron said:

Instead, Kevin was traded for next to nothing. Collins was traded for literally nothing. Team is safely under the luxury tax and we have a TPE that the team has no interest in really using.

Agree 100% with your post.  It's on all of us for being surprised by these developments though.  Yeah Resseller has done some ok things but this has been his main operating principal since day one.  He just talks a big game.  I'm telling you the Centennial Yards development is the real interest for Tony.  Would he like to win a championship?  sure but he's not going to spend to do it. 

[AHF]

5 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Feb deadline, we gotta upgrade JJ ain’t it. Package deal coming this February stay tuned.

-Outsiders

Trade bait, February goner. 

First, if Bey is the guy then do you really need this?  In that world, JJ is just the young backup PF on a rookie contract behind Bey so I don't see why getting rid of JJ is such a priority for you.

Second, the trade package may not even include JJ.

Third, if the trade is for Siakam then it becomes pretty difficult to sort that out if he is still saying he won't resign don't you think?  You are then trading for less than half a season of him with the possibility that he could walk away in like 90 days or whatever.  Feels like you have the same issue about what Toronto wants versus the risk of an UFA except on steroids since it is a midseason trade.  No one wants Danny Manning 2.0.