If Ressler did not "evade" the tax, here is what we would be looking at going into next season.

[Final_quest]

25 minutes ago, AHF said:

One has little to do with the other, imo.  We can pursue Siakam and still dump someone just to be under the tax.  In other words, we didn't need to dump JC and not use any of the exceptions created by the trade in order to trade for Siakam.  

Example:  You could use the exceptions to acquire expiring contract players and you preserve all your flexibility for next year's payroll while having a roster that isn't filled with a bunch of has beens and never will be's like Matthews, Mathews, Forrest, Mills, and (apparently in the eyes of the coaching staff based on usage) Fernando.  Having a couple vets who can't contribute much on the floor is one thing.  It is another entirely to have a bench comprised primarily of old guys who can't contribute much and young guys who aren't good enough to be worthy of minutes.

 

On Jeff's chart if you trade JC for Siakam the number goes up by about $10M for next year.  Who is supposed to care or think about that?  

Without JC you can trade Hunter and filler for Siakam and afford to keep the entire roster while staying under the second apron next year.  @Sothron was told they were willing to pay that much, but guess what happened?  Toronto played hardball and we had to walk.  All the evidence suggests that was the entire angle of our moves last summer. 

When Toronto left us high and dry they had to decide to pursue signing retread players left over after the good ones were already signed or go into the offseason with the fully baked rotation they already had.  Yes it was thin and we got exposed. 

What is the move you think they should have done after Toronto left us the altar?  My best suggestion is to do what they did.  Keep your TPE and more wiggle room to bring in someone like Siakam at the trade deadline.  That is a lot harder to do if you used your TPE to land Kyle Kuzma.  Tell me the move we missed?  

[JeffS17]

I agree with everyone that the returns matter, and we gave away JC for nothing.  But the root issue here is not JC, how talented he is, or whether or not he was productive -- it's his contract.  That's what dictates the returns and JC was on an awful contract.  Guys that are on bad value contracts are not going to get you returns... so all of the arguments I see in this post all drive back to a single root issue: we overpaid JC.

 

If JC was getting $10M a year, we would have either retained him or gotten picks for trading him, but he wasn't.  @AHF has preached making these guys earn their contracts and Schlenk didn't do that.  He handed out expensive contracts to average to slightly above average starters.  That's a death knell for roster building and we're going to be dealing with the consequences for a while.  And @Final_quest has correctly called out we were aggressively trying to upgrade the roster, regardless of the JC trade or not.  JC was on such a bad contract we had to move him for best possible offer, it's clear to me, reading between the lines, Toronto or any other team with a star player we were targeting was not interested in JC.  The move made sense... all the evidence points towards us trying to upgrade talent but clearly we're being cautious about overpaying (which I appreciate after the Murray trade).

[macdaddy]

7 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

What is the move you think they should have done after Toronto left us the altar?  My best suggestion is to do what they did.  Keep your TPE and more wiggle room to bring in someone like Siakam at the trade deadline.  That is a lot harder to do if you used your TPE to land Kyle Kuzma.  Tell me the move we missed?  

This is a great point.  The jury is still out.   There's time but not a ton of time.  

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

This is a great point.  The jury is still out.   There's time but not a ton of time.  

To go into the tax this year means we use MLE, TPE, and picks for BPA after the market had been sucked dry.  There wasn’t a great opportunity after missing on Siakam.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

I know that seems like a reasonable question to you, FQ, but you're not thinking about it in the detail necessary... ie, how trades have to be structured when you're using an exception, in this case, to acquire a Siakam. And secondly but as importantly, you're not considering timing.

To trade for Siakam and use the exception gained from the JC trade would have meant sending out enough draft pick inventory to compensate TOR.

The misnomer it seems that sometimes people (maybe not you) envision is that you can take, say, a $10m slice of the exception, and pair that with, say, a $20m contract, and get a $30m player.

That's not how it works.

So, the reality is that there wasn't a lot of dickering to be had if the rumored Siakam trade was somehow going to involve the JC trade exception.

Rather, everything revolved around sending out current ATL contracts... having nothing to do with the JC trade exception, then.

Meaning then... the two transactions were mutually exclusive of each other in terms of making the Siakam trade happen.

 

You may legitimately reply, "But we would need to move the starting PF to accommodate a new starting PF."

And that's where the second point comes in... it was premature to do the JC deal, then. You don't do that JC deal until you actually have the Siakam deal done or nearly done... unless... it's not actually about the Siakam deal anyhow... your priority is on salary relief anyhow, and you're going to take the biggest tub of popcorn anyone offers you just to achieve that goal.

And here we are. Arguing things that are pretty clear, but as-if they're somehow cloudy. *sigh*

 

If you are trading for Siakam, you are doing it without using the exception.  It isn't big enough to accommodate his salary unless I am remembering wrong.  So you would trade for Siakam with something like Hunter or DM, etc. plus filler and pick(s) and then you would still have the exceptions that you could use to take on other players.

[ShooterSays]

My gut tells me we go into the LT this upcoming summer. Otherwise, we're a lottery team without a pick. You almost have to go into the tax to keep a great pick from transferring to SAS. Otherwise, you risk losing the locker-room and even worse the fanba$e.

[macdaddy]

11 minutes ago, ShooterSays said:

My gut tells me we go into the LT this upcoming summer. Otherwise, we're a lottery team without a pick. You almost have to go into the tax to keep a great pick from transferring to SAS. Otherwise, you risk losing the locker-room and even worse the fanba$e.

If we dont' make the playoffs this year then they need to worry about regaining the fanbase. 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

On Jeff's chart if you trade JC for Siakam the number goes up by about $10M for next year.  Who is supposed to care or think about that?  

It depends on how the deal is structured.  It can be done with a variance of almost $15M so there is a big gap in how those outcomes play out.

Quote

Without JC you can trade Hunter and filler for Siakam and afford to keep the entire roster while staying under the second apron next year. 

You know what else you can do?  Avoid the tax entirely this year and next year.  You just trade Hunter and filler or whatever other trade you want to do this season and then you take other actions like not keeping Bey.  Which would follow the template used after we acquired DM where we traded for him and then ditched other salary to stay under the tax.

Do we do that following a Siakam trade?  I guess we'll find out if it happens.

Quote

What is the move you think they should have done after Toronto left us the altar?  My best suggestion is to do what they did.  Keep your TPE and more wiggle room to bring in someone like Siakam at the trade deadline.  That is a lot harder to do if you used your TPE to land Kyle Kuzma.  Tell me the move we missed?  

Why did we have to wait to make moves until we had Siakam?  I'm not sure what changes other than you lock yourself into being a tax paying team after you land Siakam.  We are just under $10M away from the tax right now.  That means we could have added a player for just under $12M instead of signing Wesley Matthews and remained under the tax line.  

UFAs who would have fit include:

Joe Ingles

Gabe Vincent

Trey Lyles

Mortiz Wagner (want that 7 footer?)

Etc.

You could also have outbid teams on RFAs especially if you were going to default to getting worthless players to fill the roster which means being delayed while the team considers matching is not a problem.  For example, Thybelle would look nice on our roster if you are trying to upgrade your defense on the wings and he took a deal worth $2M less this season than the MLE which was available to us without even having to touch the big TPE.

[Final_quest]

56 minutes ago, AHF said:

It depends on how the deal is structured.  It can be done with a variance of almost $15M so there is a big gap in how those outcomes play out.

Bottom line you are in deep doo pretty quick on your books if you bring Siakam to the team and you don't cut JC first.  

Also, I don't think they would do the same thing with Bey that they did with Huerter.  But I think everyone got triggered by Huerter in irrational ways.

The reason you wait to sign additional players after Siakam is because we nearly had a full rotation before Siakam.  We weren't in a position to be on a shopping spree AND bring in Siakam.  Remember Jeff's chart?  You'd be $10M/year more past that 2nd Apron for another guy that is a nice to have and may not even get in your rotation.  

[Sothron]

You can't use a TPE to go with another player in a trade. So we couldn't use JC's TPE plus Patty Mills to equal Siakam for example. 

[JayBirdHawk]

I had a much longer post but scrapped it. (Yes longer than this , I'mnot trying to be @sturt).

The simple truth is we have not improved the team since acquiring Murray. Got cut at knees immediately. It was like saying, run this 100 metre race, but start 20 paces back, but mind you...you'd better at least win a medal.
The timing of the Huerter trade was always my issue. I even gave some leeway in getting under the tax if:
1. we were anticipating or looking for a trade for improving, as it was easier to do so if we were under the tax in how much money we could take back in trade (I posted that info in the pinned CBA thread)
2. having access to the $9 mil MLE
3. The first round pick received along with the financial flexibility for an upgrade.
But we did nothing, it was a straight get under the tax move, without consideration for the on court talent.

Similar approach with JC. I get it, he had to be moved (didn't fit, too high salary, tax ramification, etc etc). It's what they did not do after the trade that's most bothersome, just paying lip service.

Once Again, create financial flexibility to get under the tax and have access to the $11 mil MLE and create the largest TPE this season.  I said at the time don't want to hear 'we have the largest TPE' if we do nothing with it to improve the team, while also sitting on the MLE. We haven't IMPROVED the team by ADDING FUNCTIONAL NBA TALENT. Just cut cost for two consecutive years.

Free agents signed this and last offseason: Aaron Holiday, Frank Kaminsky and Wesley Matthews. Does that scream 'building a competitive team?' Nope. Then we hear if we make the playoffs via playin - look for changes? REALLY?  REALLY? A Talent starved team where one injury throws us into a spiral? Chile please!!!

Talked about this last offseason, at the TDL last season, this past offseason and now again with the approaching TDL. Meanwhile we wait and salivate over the same sorry buzzwords......but it's Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat.
I'M OVER IT! I'm talked out! i'm tired!

I'm just watching and waiting, waiting and watching!!!

I want nothing more than to be wrong. I'll eat crow served every which way. But I'll remain in my skeptical corner....while watching the Ressler's 

 

[sturt]

11 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'm just watching and waiting, waiting and watching!!!

(Thanks for the @... I guess.)

I'm not. The angel on my shoulder made a compelling case... why do that to yourself?... like you have no other options???

Not to be insensitive if anyone reading this has ever been or ever known a victim of domestic abuse, but it's that same thing... "why don't they leave... why do they keep thinking they can fix it... why do they keep wondering if it's about their bad thinking, when it's obvious, no, this person is taking advantage of you???"

 

That's all. As you were.

[JustSomeGuy]

For those still talking about JC he is apparently already wearing out his welcome in Utah and is back on the trade block. 

So much for that monster bounce back season. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, JustSomeGuy said:

For those still talking about JC he is apparently already wearing out his welcome in Utah and is back on the trade block. 

So much for that monster bounce back season. 

This JC thing is odd.   He's 15/9 with 48/38 split.   He's usually there second lead scorer.   And the news is that there's growing frustration on both side and he's on the trade blocks.  I've delved into the reading and I see two things that stands out:

1.   Everybody on Utah's squad is on the trade blocks.   They thought they would be winning.  However a backcourt of Sexton and Clarkson can't win.. no matter who else you may have. 

2.  Advanced stats. 

I was reading one take on the matter.   Recently, Collins got sick and he was replaced by Kelly Olynk and the team played better (even though they still loss. )  The sentiment is that Collins is not integrating into the offense and defense well and he's making too much  to only be a 15/9 player who is not a world beater on defense. 

A lot of fanboy sites point to the "Advanced Metrics" and say that he's just a little better than average and makes too much to justify that. 

 It's interesting considering that that's the rule now.  Some fanboy looks at the Advanced Metrics and see that Garrison plays PF better than JJ and urges Snyder to give Garrison more PT at the PF if you want to win.

I think they will find a trade partner; probably Boston and watch what he does with the opportunity. 

 

 

 

[sturt]

3 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

For those still talking about JC he is apparently already wearing out his welcome in Utah and is back on the trade block. 

So much for that monster bounce back season. 

(Guy, that's a whole other conversation, immaterial to the conversation being had about how the deal reflected/reflects on the owner. To be clear... whether Hawks were undefeated now, whether Collins was the early favorite for MVP right now... whether Hawks were winless right now, whether Collins was cut and out of basketball... none of that matters. The only thing that matters are the facts as they were known... known... on June 26, 2023, when the deal was made. Because that is what is indicative of the priority of the owner.)

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

(Guy, that's a whole other conversation, immaterial to the conversation being had about how the deal reflected/reflects on the owner. To be clear... whether Hawks were undefeated now, whether Collins was the early favorite for MVP right now... whether Hawks were winless right now, whether Collins was cut and out of basketball... none of that matters. The only thing that matters are the facts as they were known... known... on June 26, 2023, when the deal was made. Because that is what is indicative of the priority of the owner.)

Still think you’re flustered with our situation, not the owner.  Unless you’re taking a stand against all ownership in all sports, because theres no ownership/FO group in the league that looks at this group and says “Im paying the tax for this mid team”.  
 

Is there a single example of a .500 ball club launching into the tax the next season?  Does that precedent exist? 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Still think you’re flustered with our situation, not the owner.  Unless you’re taking a stand against all ownership in all sports, because theres no ownership/FO group in the league that looks at this group and says “Im paying the tax for this mid team”.  
 

Is there a single example of a .500 ball club launching into the tax the next season?  Does that precedent exist? 

There are examples of losing teams paying the tax in the NBA to try to get competitive.  For example, the Knicks missed the playoffs 5 of 6 years and paid the tax every year.  Nets won 44 games and paid $100M in tax a couple years ago.  Dallas and Portland paid the tax for first round exit teams.  Etc.

The time to pay the tax and go for it was after we traded for DM and gave away a bunch of unprotected first round picks.

[AHF]

On 12/15/2023 at 2:50 PM, Final_quest said:

Bottom line you are in deep doo pretty quick on your books if you bring Siakam to the team and you don't cut JC first.  

Also, I don't think they would do the same thing with Bey that they did with Huerter.  But I think everyone got triggered by Huerter in irrational ways.

The reason you wait to sign additional players after Siakam is because we nearly had a full rotation before Siakam.  We weren't in a position to be on a shopping spree AND bring in Siakam.  Remember Jeff's chart?  You'd be $10M/year more past that 2nd Apron for another guy that is a nice to have and may not even get in your rotation.  

Yeah.  True.  We had no room in our rotation for an impact defender like Thybelle.  We couldn’t possibly find a use for a guy like him this season.  

[Final_quest]

17 hours ago, AHF said:

Yeah.  True.  We had no room in our rotation for an impact defender like Thybelle.  We couldn’t possibly find a use for a guy like him this season.  

That's where you guys are really struggling.  There are only 8-9 players in a rotation.  This is a .500 team that is scheduled to be over the tax in the next year AND you are trying to bring in an allstar that will cost your team even more (Siakam).  So, how is the play to overpay for a guy like Thybulle who is a RFA while negotiating for Siakam?  Thybulle plays the same position as Hunter, Bey, and AJ.  

Portland matched his offer at 3 years $33M.  One immediate problem is we wouldn't be able to even offer an RFA that much money.  So this is a fantasy signing with no legs from the start.  Second problem is you don't even have a rotation spot for him going into the season.  Third MAJOR problem is you are trying to give yourself enough cap room against the luxury tax next season to retain Bey who had the highest plus minus on the team.  If you bring in Thybulle and Siakam, you have almost no shot at retaining Bey.  
 

[JayBirdHawk]

On 12/15/2023 at 8:10 AM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

When I look at our contracts, we have more than enough guys that we can pair together, and flip them for a greater talent.

This is why Landry needs to go ahead and pull the trigger on a bigger talent, while Ressler also needs to stop being so stringent on paying a little tax.  Of course, don't go into that 2nd apron, but we need higher quality talent in here.   The top 6 salaries are all decent rotation players, with Trae and maybe DJ being untouchable right now.  Time to start flipping people.

But you are correct.  Schlenk and Fields created this situation by betting on our own guys instead of maybe flipping them or letting them walk to add a more talented player.

You are correct. We didn't trade to consolidate to get better in return. We traded for lesser players and to reduce payroll. When we do this we also don't have 'things' to trade other teams would want.