If Ressler did not "evade" the tax, here is what we would be looking at going into next season.

[JeffS17]

 

Here it is.  The "competitive", ultra expensive -- deep into the second apron -- roster that we could have in place if Ressler would just pay the tax.  This would be the second most expensive roster in the league for this season.  Anyone that looks at this and seriously thinks we shouldn't have offloaded assets to get under the tax is delusional.  This would be GM malpractice.  I don't even like looking at it.

 

[sturt]

Keep trying the hindsight 20/20 thing, brother Jeff.

But it completely misses the point. My guess is you completely get that.

The point... again, again, again... is that this past summer none of us knew what is known now... and in light of what was known then, a decision was made. That decision was purely a money decision, not a basketball decision even a little bit... to sell stock at its very lowest ever. The decision itself was just one decision, but put together with the previous off-season's KH trade, it made an overarching statement about the philosophy that guides this team's FO decision-making.

So look. If you need a third off-season of selling a starter-quality asset for zero/zilch/nada basketball talent in return in order to be persuaded that Peter Antony Ressler's priority is his own profit/loss statement over anything else... I love ya, but you're one stubborn Ressler apologist in my book. Maybe just mine.

 

[JayBirdHawk]

Sigh.

This.is.not.it! 

Timing matters.

[JeffS17]

5 minutes ago, sturt said:

Keep trying the hindsight 20/20 thing, brother Jeff.

But it completely misses the point. My guess is you completely get that.

The point... again, again, again... is that this past summer none of us knew what is known now... and in light of what was known then, a decision was made. That decision was purely a money decision, not a basketball decision even a little bit... to sell stock at its very lowest ever. The decision itself was just one decision, but put together with the previous off-season's KH trade, it made an overarching statement about the philosophy that guides this team's FO decision-making.

So look. If you need a third off-season of selling a starter-quality asset for zero/zilch/nada basketball talent in return in order to be persuaded that Peter Antony Ressler's priority is his own profit/loss statement over anything else... I love ya, but you're one stubborn Ressler apologist in my book. Maybe just mine.

 

This past summer we absolutely knew that our team was beyond mid… and starting the tax ti retain JC to continue being mid is the solution?  We have a talent problem, not a spending problem.  In fact, we've been TOO generous with contracts which is why were in such a difficult spot.  Schlenk should be getting the blame more than anyone.

[JeffS17]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sigh.

This.is.not.it! 

Timing matters.

It does matter, we agree on that.  Hold Kev and/or JC on the roster, sitting in the tax, and were still mid… now you have a bigger timing problem because you have no leverage in negotiations and teams know you’re desperate.  These guys arent AD or KD, there is no JC sweepstakes.

[sturt]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

This past summer we absolutely knew that our team was beyond mid… and starting the tax ti retain JC to continue being mid is the solution?  We have a talent problem, not a spending problem.  In fact, we've been TOO generous with contracts which is why were in such a difficult spot.  Schlenk should be getting the blame more than anyone.

Relevance?

You're not helping the talent problem by subtracting... talent.

Ever.

 

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, sturt said:

Relevance?

You're not helping the talent problem by subtracting... talent.

Ever.

 

You can absolutely increase the average talent of a rotation by taking a player out of it.  We literally did that.  Both JJ and Bey are better and higher impact players than JC.

So youve completely missed the mark here.  And my guess is you completely get that.

[sturt]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

It does matter, we agree on that.  Hold Kev and/or JC on the roster, sitting in the tax, and were still mid… now you have a bigger timing problem because you have no leverage in negotiations and teams know you’re desperate.  These guys arent AD or KD, there is no JC sweepstakes.

You keep doing this. And of course you do. That is, pretending that there was some omniscience that would permit the easy conclusion that the team would not be competitive for this season. Coming off a better-than-expected performance taking the Celtics series to 6 games, having one of the NBA's most highly regarded head coaches from game one... there was optimism you're conveniently forgetting about what the 2023-24 season would bring. Hell, I even remember scanning the threads here a few weeks into the season, and some of y'all were starting thread talking about how the team was demolishing the competition, and projecting some high playoff seed.

 

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, sturt said:

You keep doing this. And of course you do. That is, pretending that there was some omniscience that would permit the easy conclusion that the team would not be competitive for this season. Coming off a better-than-expected performance taking the Celtics series to 6 games, having one of the NBA's most highly regarded head coaches from game one... there was optimism you're conveniently forgetting about what the 2023-24 season would bring. Hell, I even remember scanning the threads here a few weeks into the season, and some of y'all were starting thread talking about how the team was demolishing the competition, and projecting some high playoff seed.

 

We would be doing worse, up until the point JJ got hurt, if JC was here taking minutes from him.  He’s not a guy Quin wants or values, quite the opposite actually: he cannot defend multiple positions, he cannot dribble, and he cannot pass.  The trade made sense on multiple fronts, only one of which is not going into the tax for a guy who is not a difference maker.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

We literally did that.  Both JJ and Bey are better and higher impact players than JC.

They would have been that anyway... They would have had better depth behind them though.   You are the either/or thinker on this board.  This is a both/and situation. 

Let's follow your logic though.

We can trade Hunter for a 2nd round pick and some sloppy joe player ready to retire.   and we will have made more room for Saddiq to play. 

So the trade is below.  And to save a roster space, we buy out Alec Burks.  Now.  Saddiq has all the playing time he wants.  He's the starting 3.   We have 2 2nd round draft picks in route.    The front office has saved about 85 Million over the next 4 years.   But what happens when Saddiq gets injured? I guess we can start AJ if he's still around. 

[sturt]

6 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

You can absolutely increase the average talent of a rotation by taking a player out of it.  We literally did that.  Both JJ and Bey are better and higher impact players than JC.

 

1. JJ has nothing to do with this conversation. You desperately want him to be, but his minutes were never threatened by JC's presence. He was going to get his. The question was what would be left over for Collins.

2. And you cannot persuade me that Bey is a better PF than Collins.

But let's say he is, just for the sake of argument, trying to give you all the leash possible, brother.

You still had the option of letting training camp play out... you still had the option of seeing if JC's positive trend would continue... you still had the option of not selling the stock at its absolute lowest point... and you still had the option, worst case, of having a starter-quality asset on the bench, ready in case you might have an injury to a big man.

That is, if the priority was on basketball.

 

C'mon Jeff. This is absurd. No one believed at the time and only stubborn Ressler apologists believe now that the JC trade was anything but a salary dump. There was zero basketball value to making that trade, and in combination with the KH trade, it shines vivid bright light on the owner's priorities.

 

 

[sturt]

7 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

He’s not a guy Quin wants or values,

Prove that. Prove that and you've got me.

Show me the quote, and substantiate this as being valid, and I'll shut the hell up like you want me to be shut up.

I'm skeptical, because I was watching last post season when Quin did pressers where he didn't even get asked about John, but brought up his name to give a shout out. I think you're making that up, I really do. But I'll walk it all back if you can show me the receipts.

If Quin wanted JC gone, then yes, you have me convinced... it was a basketball trade after all.

 

If you cannot, though... then yeah, what you're saying is just desperation on your part, imo, to shill for the owner in spite of the evidence. Sorry, man.

 

[theheroatl]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

 

Here it is.  The "competitive", ultra expensive -- deep into the second apron -- roster that we could have in place if Ressler would just pay the tax.  This would be the second most expensive roster in the league for this season.  Anyone that looks at this and seriously thinks we shouldn't have offloaded assets to get under the tax is delusional.  This would be GM malpractice.  I don't even like looking at it.

 

Thank you for this. We have to have roster management. Also we need defenders.

[theheroatl]

27 minutes ago, sturt said:

 

1. JJ has nothing to do with this conversation. You desperately want him to be, but his minutes were never threatened by JC's presence. He was going to get his. The question was what would be left over for Collins.

2. And you cannot persuade me that Bey is a better PF than Collins.

But let's say he is, just for the sake of argument, trying to give you all the leash possible, brother.

You still had the option of letting training camp play out... you still had the option of seeing if JC's positive trend would continue... you still had the option of not selling the stock at its absolute lowest point... and you still had the option, worst case, of having a starter-quality asset on the bench, ready in case you might have an injury to a big man.

That is, if the priority was on basketball.

 

C'mon Jeff. This is absurd. No one believed at the time and only stubborn Ressler apologists believe now that the JC trade was anything but a salary dump. There was zero basketball value to making that trade, and in combination with the KH trade, it shines vivid bright light on the owner's priorities.

 

 

I thought you were a jazz fan now. I can’t read your long posts.

 

JC was a salary dump and we are better for it. There was no market to take that dudes contract on.

[givemesome1ce1]

In the last three years, can you name the best free agent signing for the Hawks? AARON HOLIDAY

 

In the last three years, can you name the most significant moves made during the trade deadline? 
 

Saddiq Bey, Bruno, and Garry Bird last year  which helps shooting but doesn’t move the needle that much.

 

For the past three years, the hawks, instead of consolidating players and assets they wanted to move on into a star player for Trae, have decided to basically to give up players for basically nothing. JC got traded for scraps because we tanked his value, Huerter trade was terrible in return with the exception of the SAC pick we will get, Gallo was salary filler for Dejounte Murray (which is looking to be a terrible trade everyday).

 

Stop defending the Resslers and ask yourself: Why have we made no impactful free agent signings? Why is ownership content with being one of the smallest teams in the NBA with a 6’1 point guard being the star AND continuing to be smaller? WHY is the team constantly refusing to consolidate their assets to get an actual star player for Trae? 

Edited December 15, 2023 by givemesome1ce1

[Sothron]

No one wants the team to be in the 2nd apron of the LT. That is franchise suicide with how restrictive it is. Paying the 1st apron is reasonable and frankly necessary simply to be a playoff team in today's NBA. 

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sigh.

This.is.not.it! 

Timing matters.

Tetris type game, ya this.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

  We have a talent problem, not a spending problem.  In fact, we've been TOO generous with contracts which is why were in such a difficult spot.  Schlenk should be getting the blame more than anyone.

 

This.   This is the statement right here.

We extended Bogi.  We extended Capela.  We extended 12.

The first 2 guys we thought would all be gone or traded by now, in order to give younger cheaper talent ( AJ and JJ ) a chance to get more minutes and develop.

Then we extended Murray.  And now we've extended Okongwu.

The effect of that sees Trae - DJ - 12 - Capela - Okongwu  and Bogi locked in at least until the summer of 2025.  And only Clint comes off the books that summer.  The rest of the "core" ( Trae - DJ - 12 - Okongwu - Bogi ) could be locked in as long as 2027, if Trae doesn't take the Early Termination Option and the team picks up the club option on Bogi for the 2026 - 27 season.

And this doesn't take into account a deal that JJ could possibly get as a restricted free agent in 2026.

 

But by then though, if we're still bad to mediocre, surely this will be blown up.

 

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

When I look at our contracts, we have more than enough guys that we can pair together, and flip them for a greater talent.

This is why Landry needs to go ahead and pull the trigger on a bigger talent, while Ressler also needs to stop being so stringent on paying a little tax.  Of course, don't go into that 2nd apron, but we need higher quality talent in here.   The top 6 salaries are all decent rotation players, with Trae and maybe DJ being untouchable right now.  Time to start flipping people.

But you are correct.  Schlenk and Fields created this situation by betting on our own guys instead of maybe flipping them or letting them walk to add a more talented player.

[Final_quest]

7 hours ago, sturt said:

Prove that. Prove that and you've got me.

 

NBA coaches don’t publicly state that a player doesn’t fit or is unwanted while he’s on the roster.  That would completely destroy your leverage in trading them.  If anything they exaggerate their positive contribution deliberately.  They tell you their true feelings with an action, by moving that player as a salary dump.  
 

With reports that the Jazz already regret the trade, do you really believe Collins value is higher right now?  I don’t.  If anything he is now a negative asset where you have to take back another negative asset in a trade or trade him with a draft pick to offload him.  
 

Besides they clearly wanted a major upgrade in Siakam.  If they keep Collins to reestablish his value with JJ and Bey and Siakam, how would that work?  
 

Of all the things we have done wrong over the years, this is the trigger?