Official Game Thread: Jazz at Hawks

[deester11]

15 minutes ago, AHF said:

I did the math.  Since his rookie season, Trae has shot 41.3% on catch and shoot 3's.  (He is 190 for 460).

His efg% on those shots is 62.0%.  That is a very good shot for this or any other team.

I would say the points on Trae are that the catch and shoot is indeed a good shot for Trae.  Barring yalls fancy smancy stats, I can see it too.  

[REHawksFan]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

I did the math.  Since his rookie season, Trae has shot 41.3% on catch and shoot 3's.  (He is 190 for 460).

His efg% on those shots is 62.0%.  That is a very good shot for this or any other team.

But he only makes 0.8 per game so clearly he's not a good catch and shoot 3pt shooter.  

[Nash]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I did the math.  Since his rookie season, Trae has shot 41.3% on catch and shoot 3's.  (He is 190 for 460).

His efg% on those shots is 62.0%.  That is a very good shot for this or any other team.

I did the math on Aaron Holiday. Since his rookie season (same as Trae) he hit 254 out 580 on c&s at 43. 7% clip

Edited February 29 by Nash

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, Nash said:

I did the math on Aaron Holiday. Since his rookie season (same as Trae) he hit 254 out 580 on c&s at 43. 7% clip

Yeah - that is a great shot and no brainer for anybody shooting 40%+.  Holiday's best offense was as a catch and shoot player for us.  If teams left him open, they were dumb.  Tony Snell was like that.  A lot of guys can effectively make shots where they don't have to move and where they are generally more open.

If we could have every possession end in a Holiday or Young catch and shoot 3, we would have the best offense in the history of the league.

[Nash]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Yeah - that is a great shot and no brainer for anybody shooting 40%+.  Holiday's best offense was as a catch and shoot player for us.  If teams left him open, they were dumb.  Tony Snell was like that.  A lot of guys can effectively make shots where they don't have to move and where they are generally more open.

If we could have every possession end in a Holiday or Young catch and shoot 3, we would have the best offense in the history of the league.

Problem is that the teams don't believe that you can do that at a high clip and that's why Tony Snell is out of the league and Holiday changed 5 teams in the last 5 years. Holiday with 1.0 fgm made out of 2.3 (43%) is ranked at 165. And if you're thinking that Aaron is drawing more attention on ofense than for example Bogi than you're fooling yourself. And if you think that Aaron can do the same on 7 or more attempts than you're fooling yourself even more

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, Nash said:

Problem is that the teams don't believe that you can do that at a high clip and that's why Tony Snell is out of the league and Holiday changed 5 teams in the last 5 years. Holiday with 1.0 fgm made out of 2.3 (43%) is ranked at 165. And if you're thinking that Aaron is drawing more attention on ofense than for example Bogi than you're fooling yourself. And if you think that Aaron can do the same on 7 or more attempts than you're fooling yourself even more

You are the one that brought up Aaron. Not sure why.  Trae has proven that he can make a high % of shots on increased volume. What is it about Trae's game that makes you think he can't? I'm genuinely asking because for most of this thread you've had your head in the sand on this topic. 

[Nash]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

You are the one that brought up Aaron. Not sure why.  Trae has proven that he can make a high % of shots on increased volume. What is it about Trae's game that makes you think he can't? I'm genuinely asking because for most of this thread you've had your head in the sand on this topic. 

If you don't understand why I brought up Aaron,  how can you understand anything I wrote so far. I brought up Aaron because he started playing ball same year as Trae. He made more c&s at a higher clip than Trae throughout his career and he's not considered a good c&s player. Is he bad, no but he's not good either.  If he was good, teams wouldn't have been jettisoning him every year. If you're good at anything in nba you're an asset. C&S is not just standing in the corner (or anywhere else on the court) and waiting for D to leave you alone and the ball will find you to shoot. It's more than that. You need to move around quickly and efficiently, you need to have quick release, you need to be able to shoot over other players, you need to be difficult to guard to be able to do that at a high clip. When you take ball out of Trae's hands it's the same as fighting against a cobra snake that had its teeth removed. He's not moving well when playing off ball. Due to his size he's not able to shoot over opposing D. It's 10x easier to guard him when he plays off ball. Same applies to Aaron. This is not a shot on Trae as he's a generational player and those are rare.

He's efficient at a few that he takes in a game but he can't do that at a higher clip for the reasons described. 

Let me ask you a question:

We both know that Trae is a much better player than Bogi. One is a star and the other one is a role player. Is this Hawks team better with Bogi or Trae at 2 if DJM is playing 100% of his time at point

Edited February 29 by Nash

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Nash said:

Problem is that the teams don't believe that you can do that at a high clip and that's why Tony Snell is out of the league and Holiday changed 5 teams in the last 5 years. Holiday with 1.0 fgm made out of 2.3 (43%) is ranked at 165. And if you're thinking that Aaron is drawing more attention on ofense than for example Bogi than you're fooling yourself. And if you think that Aaron can do the same on 7 or more attempts than you're fooling yourself even more

Nope.  

Bogi is an outstanding catch and shoot player so I have no idea what you are talking about by bringing him into this.  All three of Trae, Bogi, and Holiday are excellent catch and shoot players.  It is Trae's ability to orchestrate the offense and create that has him as the focus of opposing defenses.  He would not get materially any more or less attention if his catch and shoot % was 5% higher or lower.  Teams try not to allow catch and shoot opportunities at all if they can help it.  They would much rather have the opponent taking a much more difficult shot.  Catch and shoot opportunities are the closest thing to practice shots that you can get. 

What prevents Aaron Holiday from maintaining his career % on catch and shoots by taking 7 a game is not a function of his ability to hit shots at that high of a %.  It is because you will never get the volume.  Catch and shoot opportunities are not something you can just "do."  Nobody could take 10 catch and shoot shots a game but simply choose to only take 2 of them.   Holiday absolutely could maintain his % if he got a higher volume of the same quality of shot.  The issue is the same as that of corner 3's.  They are great but teams don't like to let you have those shots.  That is what prevents Aaron from shooting that well on 7 mor more attempts a game.  It isn't that he can't make that % on that type of attempt if he got more chances, it is that he isn't going to get more chances because teams aren't stupid.

Catch and shoot plays don't make a guy's career.  They are a niche thing that you like about a player but you look for things that player can do regardless of the defense.  That is where Holiday's lack of value comes.  He does a fine job when left open enough to get a catch and shoot opportunity but that isn't enough.

There are tons of elite catch and shoot guys that can't even make the NBA.  It is more akin to being a great free throw shooter.  You want all the free throws you can get but most players don't get enough of them for it to be a huge deal.

[Nash]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Nope.  

Bogi is an outstanding catch and shoot player so I have no idea what you are talking about by bringing him into this.  All three of Trae, Bogi, and Holiday are excellent catch and shoot players.  It is Trae's ability to orchestrate the offense and create that has him as the focus of opposing defenses.  He would not get materially any more or less attention if his catch and shoot % was 5% higher or lower.  Teams try not to allow catch and shoot opportunities at all if they can help it.  They would much rather have the opponent taking a much more difficult shot.  Catch and shoot opportunities are the closest thing to practice shots that you can get. 

What prevents Aaron Holiday from maintaining his career % on catch and shoots by taking 7 a game is not a function of his ability to hit shots at that high of a %.  It is because you will never get the volume.  Catch and shoot opportunities are not something you can just "do."  Nobody could take 10 catch and shoot shots a game but simply choose to only take 2 of them.   Holiday absolutely could maintain his % if he got a higher volume of the same quality of shot.  The issue is the same as that of corner 3's.  They are great but teams don't like to let you have those shots.  That is what prevents Aaron from shooting that well on 7 mor more attempts a game.  It isn't that he can't make that % on that type of attempt if he got more chances, it is that he isn't going to get more chances because teams aren't stupid.

 

Exactly! That's why Aaron and Trae are not good and Bogi is very good. They can't get more chances as they're easy to guard off ball and Bogi is not, as simple as that. Opposing teams are not stupid but Klay and Bogi are still taking 7+ of those and hitting them at high clips. That's why Klay is second and Bogi is third on the list and Aaron is 165 and Trae is outside 200.

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, Nash said:

Exactly! That's why Aaron and Trae are not good and Bogi is very good. They can't get more chances as they're easy to guard off ball and Bogi is not, as simple as that. Opposing teams are not stupid but Klay and Bogi are still taking 7+ of those and hitting them at high clips. That's why Klay is second and Bogi is third on the list and Aaron is 165 and Trae is outside 200.

I feel like we've completely missed the point by this time.  Trae is a huge part of why Bogi gets so many catch and shoot opportunities just like Curry is for Klay.  They take the focus of the defense.  Trae delivers exceptional passes.  This isn't some magic that let's Bogi get these looks much more often than Trae.   It is scheme and role on both sides of the ball more than anything.

Bogi functions as a release valve in our offense which generates a lot of catch and shoot chances.  Trae doesn't.  

The one thing I will say for Bogi is that him being a bigger target than Trae or Holiday is meaningfully helpful but scheme can also help shorter players excel when you are running screens for them which we don't do at all.

It is all about that scheme and role and as good as Trae could be in that role of taking catch and shoot shots, Quin, Nate, etc. want him primarily directing the offense because that is a higher value and higher scarcity skill than being able to hit shots when someone else feeds you.

[Nash]

32 minutes ago, AHF said:

I feel like we've completely missed the point by this time.  Trae is a huge part of why Bogi gets so many catch and shoot opportunities just like Curry is for Klay.  They take the focus of the defense.  Trae delivers exceptional passes.  This isn't some magic that let's Bogi get these looks much more often than Trae.   It is scheme and role on both sides of the ball more than anything.

Bogi functions as a release valve in our offense which generates a lot of catch and shoot chances.  Trae doesn't.  

The one thing I will say for Bogi is that him being a bigger target than Trae or Holiday is meaningfully helpful but scheme can also help shorter players excel when you are running screens for them which we don't do at all.

It is all about that scheme and role and as good as Trae could be in that role of taking catch and shoot shots, Quin, Nate, etc. want him primarily directing the offense because that is a higher value and higher scarcity skill than being able to hit shots when someone else feeds you.

Why then DJM 1.4 on 3.9 or Dre 1.5 on 3.6 or Saddiq 1.5 on 4.5 don't capitalize on playing with Trae and be better than Bogi and as they're anyway playing more time with Trae and in general. Because they can't. Because they're not as good as Bogi. And that is the difference between being good and not bad

[AHF]

15 hours ago, Nash said:

Why then DJM 1.4 on 3.9 or Dre 1.5 on 3.6 or Saddiq 1.5 on 4.5 don't capitalize on playing with Trae and be better than Bogi and as they're anyway playing more time with Trae and in general. Because they can't. Because they're not as good as Bogi. And that is the difference between being good and not bad

35.8% - Bad

41.7% - Good

33% - Terrible

None of them are as good of a 3pt shooter as Trae or Bogi.

But it is the case that all of them are capitalizing on Trae to get as many opportunities as they do.  Seeing almost 20 catch and shoot opportunities a game collectively for those 4 players is excellent.

But none of them are the primary release valve like Bogi is.  So comparing DJM's role in the offense to Bogi's is comparing apples to oranges.

[Nash]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

35.8% - Bad

41.7% - Good

33% - Terrible

None of them are as good of a 3pt shooter as Trae or Bogi.

But it is the case that all of them are capitalizing on Trae to get as many opportunities as they do.  Seeing almost 20 catch and shoot opportunities a game collectively for those 4 players is excellent.

But none of them are the primary release valve like Bogi is.  So comparing DJM's role in the offense to Bogi's is comparing apples to oranges.

To be honest I don't see any difference in what you're saying from what I am saying here. The basic difference is that you believe that Trae is a good c&s shooter based on 0.8 fgm on 2.2fga this year and 0.5fgm on 1.2 fga carrer and I am saying that the volume thru the sample size is low to make that statement. You also seem to believe that if the Hawks offense was run differently and if Trae had more opportunities to take those shots (like go to 7 or he would do that with the same efficiency correct?

[AHF]

15 hours ago, Nash said:

To be honest I don't see any difference in what you're saying from what I am saying here. The basic difference is that you believe that Trae is a good c&s shooter based on 0.8 fgm on 2.2fga this year and 0.5fgm on 1.2 fga carrer and I am saying that the volume thru the sample size is low to make that statement. You also seem to believe that if the Hawks offense was run differently and if Trae had more opportunities to take those shots (like go to 7 or he would do that with the same efficiency correct?

I believe Trae is a good catch and shoot shooter based on low volume over 5 years adding up to what I consider a reasonable sample size combined with what we’ve seen from him on other 3pt shots. His numbers generally look good when he has space to shoot in rhythm and catch and shoot is all about that.  The way our offense functions Trae’s job is in relevant part to create C&S opportunities for other players with Bogi as the top release valve option.

So the difference is you think he sucks on those shots.  I think he is good but doesn’t get many of them due to his role on offense and how defenses scheme against him.

 

[REHawksFan]

43 minutes ago, AHF said:

I believe Trae is a good catch and shoot shooter based on low volume over 5 years adding up to what I consider a reasonable sample size combined with what we’ve seen from him on other 3pt shots. His numbers generally look good when he has space to shoot in rhythm and catch and shoot is all about that.  The way our offense functions Trae’s job is in relevant part to create C&S opportunities for other players with Bogi as the top release valve option.

So the difference is you think he sucks on those shots.  I think he is good but doesn’t get many of them due to his role on offense and how defenses scheme against him.

 

This is exactly what I was trying to say. He's proven he can shoot a high % on high volume in other areas so there's no reason to think he wouldn't do the same if he increased his volume on c/s. 

If you put prime Ben Simmons next to him as the primary PG and ran screens for Trae, he would be considered an elite shooter. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

This is exactly what I was trying to say. He's proven he can shoot a high % on high volume in other areas so there's no reason to think he wouldn't do the same if he increased his volume on c/s. 

If you put prime Ben Simmons next to him as the primary PG and ran screens for Trae, he would be considered an elite shooter. 

Naw, Trae don't move well without the ball and lacks the stamina off the ball to really do it.

[Nash]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

I believe Trae is a good catch and shoot shooter based on low volume over 5 years adding up to what I consider a reasonable sample size combined with what we’ve seen from him on other 3pt shots. His numbers generally look good when he has space to shoot in rhythm and catch and shoot is all about that.  The way our offense functions Trae’s job is in relevant part to create C&S opportunities for other players with Bogi as the top release valve option.

So the difference is you think he sucks on those shots.  I think he is good but doesn’t get many of them due to his role on offense and how defenses scheme against him.

 

No, I didn't say anywhere in replies to you or to the other poster that Trae sucks in c&s lol. I just said that he's not good as he's ranked outside of top 200 based on nba reference or statmuse. To quality to be labeled as "good"  (like top 30 in the league) you would need to score 2+ of those per game on 5+ attempts. He was efficient though in limited # of attempts same as DJM. What I said and belive is that if Trae was forced to take more of those shots while playing off ball with DJM, the efficiency wouldn't automatically transfer.

But anyway it was good discussion with you without using unnecessary bad words 

[Nash]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Naw, Trae don't move well without the ball and lacks the stamina off the ball to really do it.

The problem is that some people don't even know what catch and shoots assumes.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Nash said:

No, I didn't say anywhere in replies to you or to the other poster that Trae sucks in c&s lol. I just said that he's not good as he's ranked outside of top 200 based on nba reference or statmuse. To quality to be labeled as "good"  (like top 30 in the league) you would need to score 2+ of those per game on 5+ attempts. He was efficient though in limited # of attempts same as DJM. What I said and belive is that if Trae was forced to take more of those shots while playing off ball with DJM, the efficiency wouldn't automatically transfer.

But anyway it was good discussion with you without using unnecessary bad words 

You could be the greatest catch and shoot player in the league and not get that volume if the offense isn’t designed to get you those looks.  Historically great catch and shoot guys like Reggie Miller have the offense designed around freeing them for those looks.  If Reggie was the point guard and didn’t get those chances, it wouldn’t make him any worse at how effective he is on those shots.  Your classic catch and shoot monsters are not guys who constantly are setting up others through their passing and ballhandling.

This is like asking how good a free throw shooter someone is and then docking them for not getting enough free throw attempts.  Huerter is a great free throw shooter but he is not good a drawing free throws.  
 

Catch and shoot is more role and scheme dependent than drawing free throws is.  (That said, I’m not claiming Trae could ramp up to the kinds of volumes that Curry has even if he was moved to a more off ball role like Curry.  He doesn’t have that kind of movement skill.  But he would get the 2+ attempts you want to see if Snyder may that a priority for the team with his scheme.  It just isn’t.)

[Nash]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

You could be the greatest catch and shoot player in the league and not get that volume if the offense isn’t designed to get you those looks.  Historically great catch and shoot guys like Reggie Miller have the offense designed around freeing them for those looks.  If Reggie was the point guard and didn’t get those chances, it wouldn’t make him any worse at how effective he is on those shots.  Your classic catch and shoot monsters are not guys who constantly are setting up others through their passing and ballhandling.

This is like asking how good a free throw shooter someone is and then docking them for not getting enough free throw attempts.  Huerter is a great free throw shooter but he is not good a drawing free throws.  
 

Catch and shoot is more role and scheme dependent than drawing free throws is.  (That said, I’m not claiming Trae could ramp up to the kinds of volumes that Curry has even if he was moved to a more off ball role like Curry.  He doesn’t have that kind of movement skill.  But he would get the 2+ attempts you want to see if Snyder may that a priority for the team with his scheme.  It just isn’t.)

Again I didn't say 2 attempts, I said 5 or more with 2 or more of them made to be considered good. We may be confusing each other with term good. To me you're good if you're top 30, you're not bad if you score high efficiency on low volume and you're bad with low efficiency on low volume. You can also use terms elite, good and bad if that makes more sense. Steph, Klay and Bogi are then not good but elite. I have difficulties seeing Trae at that level even if the ofense was set for him same way as GS ofense is set for Steph and Klay