Official Game Thread: Jazz at Hawks

[AHF]

Trae has been excellent on catch and shoot 3’s career to date.  What team leaves him open for a catch and shoot opportunity?  The defensive attention he draws is the main impediment to volume.  Defenses are keyed on Trae.  Bogi, Bey, and everyone else get a lot of C&S chances because of this.

[deester11]

10 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Bogi FGM is 2.7 on 7.2 FGA for 37.6%

Trae FGM is 0.8 on 2.2 FGA for 38.7%

Saying he's not good at Catch and Shoot is a damn lie.  Saying he doesn't do it often is true, but he's a very good shooter.  

For his career he's 251-621 for 40.4%.  Saying that isn't a good shooter is, again, a damn lie.  

Smoke. Shots fired.  I love this board!

[Nash]

10 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

Bogi FGM is 2.7 on 7.2 FGA for 37.6%

Trae FGM is 0.8 on 2.2 FGA for 38.7%

Saying he's not good at Catch and Shoot is a damn lie.  Saying he doesn't do it often is true, but he's a very good shooter.  

For his career he's 251-621 for 40.4%.  Saying that isn't a good shooter is, again, a damn lie.  

For you Nate Hinton is a very good 3pt shooter with 0.8fgm on 1 fga 80% Saying that he doesn't do it often would be true but saying that he's not a good 3pt shooter would be a lie correct?

Just learn what volume and sample size means and then try to argue. But that could be overwhelming for you considering how you replied. I didn't put Trea outside top 200 statmuse did 

Edited February 29 by Nash

[KB21]

 

[Nash]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

Trae has been excellent on catch and shoot 3’s career to date.  What team leaves him open for a catch and shoot opportunity?  The defensive attention he draws is the main impediment to volume.  Defenses are keyed on Trae.  Bogi, Bey, and everyone else get a lot of C&S chances because of this.

So defenses are not keyed on Bogi? Or Steph Curry as a better example so they limit his volume? 

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, Nash said:

For you Nate Hinton is a very good 3pt shooter with 0.8fgm on 1 fga 80% Saying that he doesn't do it often would be true but saying that he's not a good 3pt shooter would be a lie correct?

Just learn what volume and sample size means and then try to argue. But that could be overwhelming for you considering how you replied. I didn't put Trea outside top 200 statmuse did 

This is complete nonsense.  If you aren't going to be serious there's no reason having this discussion.  Just admit you are wrong and move on.  Or don't. I don't care. 

Nate Hinton has attempted 30 3pt FG in his career.  Trae has attempted nearly 3,000.  And Trae has multiple seasons shooting 36%, 37%, and 38% on high volume from 3pt.  To say that because he doesn't attempt many per game he isn't a good shooter when the data shows the exact opposite is nonsense.  You aren't trying to have a serious discussion here.  Trae's numbers show that with more attempts he absolutely sustains his high %.  Citing FGM as some evidence that he isn't capable is just idiotic.  

[AHF]

11 minutes ago, Nash said:

So defenses are not keyed on Bogi?

Of course they aren't.  Don't be silly.  No defense is focused on Bogi.  They account for him because he is a good shooter but it is secondary to the primary focus on Trae.

Quote

Or Steph Curry as a better example so they limit his volume? 

Curry is mostly an off ball player.  They absolutely prioritize shutting him down but Golden State also runs its offense with the goal of getting him free.  Trae has the ball in his hands a lot of the time and the D is fully committed to stopping him above and beyond anything else.  We've never run a series of picks or other action to get Trae free off ball.  But this affects volume not %.  

Since his rookie year, Trae is a career 199 out of 482 on catch and shoot opportunities for a career 41.3% on catch and shoot shots.

[Nash]

4 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

This is complete nonsense.  If you aren't going to be serious there's no reason having this discussion.  Just admit you are wrong and move on.  Or don't. I don't care. 

Nate Hinton has attempted 30 3pt FG in his career.  Trae has attempted nearly 3,000.  And Trae has multiple seasons shooting 36%, 37%, and 38% on high volume from 3pt.  To say that because he doesn't attempt many per game he isn't a good shooter when the data shows the exact opposite is nonsense.  You aren't trying to have a serious discussion here.  Trae's numbers show that with more attempts he absolutely sustains his high %.  Citing FGM as some evidence that he isn't capable is just idiotic.  

You finally got it. It's idiotic to compare someone who gets 0.8 made on 1fga (80%) with somebody who made 0.8 on 2.2 (38.7%) attempts. Same as it's idiotic to compare somebody who made 2.7 on 7.2 with somebody 0.8 on 2.2. It just is. Same as it's idiotic to say that statmuse is wrong and your right.

Same as it's idiotic to say that if you take more fga you'd hit them at the same clip. (this one is good)

There is a reason why Trae, a high volume shooter is only taking 2.2 attempts per game

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, KB21 said:

 

I'm glad they are giving Patty a chance to chase the Chip.

I'm glad we're opening up a roster space to go after another player (maybe a big). 

I'm glad we're solidifying Bufkin as our BU PG. 

 

[REHawksFan]

3 minutes ago, Nash said:

You finally got it. It's idiotic to compare someone who gets 0.8 made on 1fga (80%) with somebody who made 0.8 on 2.2 (38.7%) attempts. Same as it's idiotic to compare somebody who made 2.7 on 7.2 with somebody 0.8 on 2.2. It just is. Same as it's idiotic to say that statmuse is wrong and your right.

Same as it's idiotic to say that if you take more fga you'd hit them at the same clip. (this one is good)

There is a reason why Trae, a high volume shooter is only taking 2.2 attempts per game

Trae made 38% on 9.5 attempts.  He's not a volume shooter from 3pt.  Just stop with that nonsense.  Volume is only able to make 3 if you take 9 or 10.  He's literally a 40% catch and shoot player for his career.  That's on some 600+ attempts.  And from 3pt overall he's a career 35% on high volume.  But even then his 3 highest % years were his 3 highest volume years.  Trae has proven that he sustains a high % on high volume.  There's no reason to think he wouldn't do the same on catch and shoot.  Your point here is 100% invalid.  

[Nash]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Of course they aren't.  Don't be silly.  No defense is focused on Bogi.  They account for him because he is a good shooter but it is secondary to the primary focus on Trae.

Curry is mostly an off ball player.  They absolutely prioritize shutting him down but Golden State also runs its offense with the goal of getting him free.  Trae has the ball in his hands a lot of the time and the D is fully committed to stopping him above and beyond anything else.  We've never run a series of picks or other action to get Trae free off ball.  But this affects volume not %.  

Since his rookie year, Trae is a career 199 out of 482 on catch and shoot opportunities for a career 41.3% on catch and shoot shots.

The D is keyed on Trae because he's an elite player with the ball in his hands and he's able to take teams apart if you don't key on him. No d is keyed on him when he's sitting in the corner without the ball waiting to catch and shoot

[Nash]

23 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Trae made 38% on 9.5 attempts.  He's not a volume shooter from 3pt.  Just stop with that nonsense.  Volume is only able to make 3 if you take 9 or 10.  He's literally a 40% catch and shoot player for his career.  That's on some 600+ attempts.  And from 3pt overall he's a career 35% on high volume.  But even then his 3 highest % years were his 3 highest volume years.  Trae has proven that he sustains a high % on high volume.  There's no reason to think he wouldn't do the same on catch and shoot.  Your point here is 100% invalid.  

Man you sound like my wife now. When the data is against her she starts changing topic same as you. We're talking here catch and shoot and not 3pt catch and shoot let alone 3pt volume shooting. Trae is taking 2.2 attempts per game while playing 35+ mpg. That is considered low volume c&s and you can't tell if it's good or bad as there is not enough sample size. It's idiotic to say that if he takes more like 6.6 he'd hit 2.4 same as it would be idiotic to say if Hinton takes 6 3pta he'd hit 4.8. They're both low volume. To tell that somebody's good or bad you need both, volume and sample size. It's a mute point without one. To state that if someone's good 3pt shooter directly transfers that he'd be good c&s shooter just if he tries more is nonsense 

Edited February 29 by Nash

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, Nash said:

The D is keyed on Trae because he's an elite player with the ball in his hands and he's able to take teams apart if you don't key on him. No d is keyed on him when he's sitting in the corner without the ball waiting to catch and shoot

I think that people misunderstand our offense and our success without Trae based on this point. 

TRAE'S GRAVITY...

I hear people squawking about trading Trae, We're better without Trae... Blah Blah Blah.  They don't understand basketball.   Then there's the heliotropic argument.   Those people only understand half of basketball.   When we have Trae in the game, most of the time, defensive strategy is to get the ball out of his hands.  I have been watching the NBA over 40 years, and I have never seen anybody who as soon as he crossed halfcourt, teams pick him up with a double team.    That is because you don't have effective scorers who are also ball handlers.   So in that case, Trae is a unicorn.  No disrespect to James Harden.  Harden has the same game but he has always been paired up with a good PG (Westbrook, CP3, Irving).  The time when Harden looked like Crap (Philly) is a time when he wasn't paired up with a good PG. 

So Trae's gravity is historic... somebody said what about Steph.  Curry is not the primary ball handler in GS.  Their offense is designed around getting him the ball not him being the distributor.  ASIDE:  The playoffs awaits Haliburton.   Haliburton has never received the Trae treatment but it's coming.  Teams know that it works on Trae to stop Atlanta's offense, they will do it to Haliburton when the games count.  Just like the Lakers did in the playin tourney. 

So when we talk about our offense with Trae... we had to bring in another ball handler.   That was the first cause for bring in DJ.   Not as a POA defender, but as a second ball handler.   Somebody who could take the pressure off of Trae because Trae's gravity was much too great.   But Dj doesn't know how to be CP3 because in my opinion, he's not a natural PG.  He doesn't have the eye... and Trae doesn't know how to be James Harden.   Even though Trae can kill teams with Catch and Shoot threes... he doesn't know how to exist without the ball in his hands because we don't set picks for him either. 

So where that leaves us is the your turn my turn offense that Nate installed. 

That is a failing proposition.  When Trae is off the court, the offense is different because we can run.   Transition basketball is the one thing that works with or without Trae on the floor.   But does that mean that we're better without Trae.  NO..  We have to look at the level of our competition so far.   We've done this on two teams that don't play transition defense well.  Moreover, to have transition offense, we have to get stops on defense.  We will be coming up on some games after Brooklyn when our defense will be tested.   And we will look a whole lot different in a game where we have to score after getting the ball after a made shot.  Prepare for some droughts.   Because neither DJ or JJ are halfcourt PGs.   They work best in Transition.   It will be a lot of walking it up and then hoping somebody can hit a three.   This is the flaw of the Pace and Space game that Quin adheres to.  You have to have some things...

1.  Defense that can get stops...   Quin had Gobert.

2.  Good three point shooters for the halfcourt...   Quin had Mitchell, Ingles, MCJ, and others. 

3.  Transition players...  Quin had Mitchell and Clarkson... 

On that three sided coin, we have Transition players.   I don't think we have nearly as good three point shooters.  I know we don't have a defensive stopper like 3 time DPOY. 

They label Quin a genius but honestly, his genius in My opinion is good for about 44 wins.  Without Gobert and Mitchell.. .his system isn't great. 

He's going to have to learn to use Trae's gravity correctly.  The idea of trading Trae because we have looked good in transition against poor transition defensive teams will be challenged after we play NY and Cleveland. 

 

 

[REHawksFan]

1 minute ago, Nash said:

Man you sound like my wife now. When the data is against her she starts changing topic same as you. We're talking here catch and shoot and not 3pt catch and shoot let alone 3pt volume shooting. Trae is taking 2.2 attempts per game while playing 35+ mpg. That is considered low volume c&s and you can't tell if it's good or bad as there is not enough sample size. It's idiotic to say that if he takes more like 6.6 he'd hit 2.4 same as it would be idiotic to say if Hinton takes 6 3pta he'd hit 4.8. They're both low volume 

In the first post of yours that I responded to, you specifically said about Trae, "he is not a good catch and shoot 3pt shooter."  What you don't seem to comprehend is that low volume is not always the same as not good at it. 

Why is he low volume?  That's the question. 

Is it because, as you claim, he's incapable of doing it?  The data suggests that's false since he's a high % shooter in general from 3pt.  And more specifically, he's high % on high volume.  So it makes sense, or should to most logical people, that if Trae is high % on high volume from 3pt in general AND he's high % on low volume on c/s 3pt, then it's certainly within the realm of reasonableness that he can also be high % on higher volume on c/s 3pt.

So then we ask, what's the most likely scenario?  He doesn't have high volume because he's incapable of it?  OR, what's pretty obvious to logical people that actually watch the Hawks, is it because Trae has the ball in his hands most of the time and on the few occasions when he's off ball, the Hawks don't run sets for him to catch and shoot routinely?  Watching the games suggests that's true. 

I'll say it again.....low volume DOES NOT equate to BAD SHOOTER.    

[Diesel]

We haven't built anything that resembles making Trae and off ball threat.   So he doesn't have the opportunity to be a catch and shoot player. 

Pull out the old Reggie Miller offenses that the Pacers used to run if you want him to be a catch and shoot scorer. 

The truth is that every coach we have had would rather run an offense with the ball in Trae's hands rather than him coming off of screens.   If we understand that FACT.. then there is no argument. 

 

[REHawksFan]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We haven't built anything that resembles making Trae and off ball threat.   So he doesn't have the opportunity to be a catch and shoot player. 

Pull out the old Reggie Miller offenses that the Pacers used to run if you want him to be a catch and shoot scorer. 

The truth is that every coach we have had would rather run an offense with the ball in Trae's hands rather than him coming off of screens.   If we understand that FACT.. then there is no argument. 

 

Exactly.  And that's the reason that Trae has few attempts.  But he's been successful at those attempts and that, combined with his other shooting numbers, suggests he'd have no problem increasing his attempts and maintaining his efficiency.  Any way you slice it, using FGM for c/s 3pts as some barometer for whether Trae is a good shooter is nonsensical.  

[AHF]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

Exactly.  And that's the reason that Trae has few attempts.  But he's been successful at those attempts and that, combined with his other shooting numbers, suggests he'd have no problem increasing his attempts and maintaining his efficiency.  Any way you slice it, using FGM for c/s 3pts as some barometer for whether Trae is a good shooter is nonsensical.  

All of this is true.  If Trae was traded for Jamal Murray and suddenly had a bunch of C&S opportunities with open looks because teams were focused on Jokic he would be a very effective scorer on those shots.  The reality is that every offense in Atlanta has emphasized the ball in his hands (and been very effective for it even when the overall offensive talent outside of him is subpar), Trae himself has not shown natural instincts for moving off-ball and so tends to stand in one spot where he is rarely left alone, and when the ball is in anyone else's hands our coaches have very rarely run screens or other plays to free Trae up for a C&S opportunity.  

41.3% on predominantly 3's is very effective.  I didn't do the math but I'd guess that since his rookie season he has an efg% on those shots around 60%.

[Diesel]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

every coach we have had would rather run an offense with the ball in Trae's hands rather than him coming off of screens

Can you really blame the coaches.  They have one of the best PG eyes this game has seen playing for them.  A PNR wizard... a guy who can snap off a pinpoint pass and a guy who can space the floor.  You get all of that in one guy.  He's a unicorn for a reason.  The constant comparison to other Pgs continue... but he's different.   Haliburton is interesting because he shoots hellagood but Hali will have to face real defenses.  James Harden is a bigger version  of Trae but Harden is not the pinpoint passer.   It takes a braintrust to build with what we have. 

 

[Nash]

15 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

In the first post of yours that I responded to, you specifically said about Trae, "he is not a good catch and shoot 3pt shooter."  What you don't seem to comprehend is that low volume is not always the same as not good at it. 

Why is he low volume?  That's the question. 

Is it because, as you claim, he's incapable of doing it?  The data suggests that's false since he's a high % shooter in general from 3pt.  And more specifically, he's high % on high volume.  So it makes sense, or should to most logical people, that if Trae is high % on high volume from 3pt in general AND he's high % on low volume on c/s 3pt, then it's certainly within the realm of reasonableness that he can also be high % on higher volume on c/s 3pt.

So then we ask, what's the most likely scenario?  He doesn't have high volume because he's incapable of it?  OR, what's pretty obvious to logical people that actually watch the Hawks, is it because Trae has the ball in his hands most of the time and on the few occasions when he's off ball, the Hawks don't run sets for him to catch and shoot routinely?  Watching the games suggests that's true. 

I'll say it again.....low volume DOES NOT equate to BAD SHOOTER.    

First of all, 90% of what you're putting into my mouth is not what I said or ment. My first post said "none of them is a good c&s 3pt shooter" addressing the situation when DJM and Trae sharing the floor. By no means "none of them is a good shooter" equals they're bad shooters. Same with low volume. I never said that low volume =bad shooter. All I am saying is that when it comes to Trae and DJM we don't have enogh data to classify them as good c&s players. I also said that it's nonsense to assume that somebody with low volume and solid efficiency will transfer to high volume and solid efficiency just if he tries more. That's literally like saying Bogi would be the same playmaker as Trae if he just had ball in his hands more lol. And then I start listing Bogi made 1381 career assist and only 601 TO which gives him ratio of 2.3 vs Trae's career 2.28. It just doesn't work that way. 

[AHF]

I did the math.  Since his rookie season, Trae has shot 41.3% on catch and shoot 3's.  (He is 190 for 460).

His efg% on those shots is 62.0%.  That is a very good shot for this or any other team.